Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20140809 : co

Houses the u. S. Consulate and some of the last americans in iraq. A little over an hour later, fighter jets took off from a u. S. Aircraft carrier in the persian gulf and hit an isis convoy of seven cars. The four planes circled back and launched another round of air strikes, hitting eight targets total and leading to estimated significant casualties. Earlier in the day, two fa1015 jets dropped mortar bombs near irbil. President obama also launched a new diplomatic squeeze on iraqs embattled Prime Minister. The white house is trying to oust Nuri Al Maliki who has been criticized for his failure to form an inclusive or governing coalition. That is difficult. Al maliki has so many enemies he may be afraid losing power will mean losing his life. One former u. S. Official in iraq said yesterday maliki knows if he steps down, virtually he is a dead man. Now, while many forces in the Region Support a change of government there, few American Allies are backing todays air strikes in general. Great britain will not join the strikes. Limiting its support to the humanitarian mission. Turkey, a key nato ally, said its bases were not used for those u. S. Strikes. And today, a june statement that isis circulated was put back out and was addressed to, quote, america, the defender of the cross. Saying, soon enough, you will be in direct confrontation forced to do so god willing and the sons of islam have prepared themselves for this day, so wait and we will be waiting, too. Marie rarf is the state departments deputy spokesperson, former cia analyst on the middle east and served on president obamas reelection campaign. Thank you for joining me on a busy day for you. Thank you for having me, ari. Happy to be here. Great. Let me start directly. Is the u. S. Now at war with isis . Well, look, weve been clear for months now that isis is an incredibly dangerous enemy, not just for iraq, not just for the region at large, but for the United States and the rest of the world. So the president made very clear last night that they present a threat. We dont want them to be able to advance closer to irbil, because as you said, we have a very large conflict there, a joint Operation Center there where were sharing intelligence with the iraqis, themselves. So we took some strikes today as you mentioned to halt their advance and give the kurds really some room for this really good fighting force they have, the peshmerga, to regroup, rearm. Were helping them do that. And take the fight aggressively to isil. We know thats the longterm solution here. I notice you didnt say we are at war. Will you say were not at war . Are we not at war with isis at this point . Isis, or isil, whatever you want to use, is an incredibly dangerous terrorist organization. They are isis, itself, said theyre at war with the different sects in iraq, christians, yezidis, shia, sunni, kurds. Everyone who gets in their way. Look at the horrific photos and videos theyre putting out to see how barbaric they are. The president made clear well take military action to prevent them from advancing toward irbil. The same concept would apply to baghdad, of course. We have a number of people there as well. Also took action on the humanitarian side. To use u. S. Military assets to get much needed food and water. Tens of thousands of people are on top of this mountain potentially starving to death. Where the u. S. Military saw they could help, we absolutely wanted to do so. Right. And that goal of helping has been laid out. I listened to the white house Conference Call last night. As you know, your colleagues talking about the validity the white house thinks it has under domestic and International Law and said internationally this is valid in part because the Iraqi Government has requested this u. S. Involvement. Does that mean, marie, if a new government does not authorize this, or withdraws that support, that then the u. S. Would have to seat these operations . Withhen we talked last nightd today about the iraqis requesting our adistance, parts of it are the new government. Theyve named a new president , theyve requested our assista assistant we put up on the screen several officials you mentioned in your state Department Briefing today. Yes. Beyond al maliki, who have said, according to the u. S. , according to the state department, that they are on board. But if that changes in the future, in your view, then does the u. S. Have to cease these operations . Well, some of those officials are part of the new government was the point that i was making. Sure. Theyre partway through this government formation process. Weve been working with both the old government and the new government. So i understand the question, but the point i was making is that a number of these officials are part of the new government. A number of them are religious leaders or tribal leaders. We really have seen across the board iraqie leaders asking the United States for assistance and want the iraqis to government with government formation. We want a new government fully formed as soon as possible. Theyll pick their Prime Minister. Hopefully that will happen in the coming days. Now, as you know, the president said this operation isnt open ended. Administration officials declining to give an exact end date. Thats not unusual in a military campaign. But what do you think, is it reasonable to say this operation would still be going, say, a month from now . Well, there are two distinct operations here. In terms of the humanitarian side, that is a very discreet operation. If we can get humanitarian supplies to the mountain and help the Kurdish Peshmerga allow for the yezidis to leave the mountain, thats a little more time bound. Whether its in irbil or baghdad, that is not time bound. This is something we care about very deeply, but to be clear, theres no longterm u. S. Military solution to the problem in iraq. Our longterm strategy here is to help the iraqi forces, help the kurds, help them fight this threat on their own, give them some space and time to regroup and really get better at this because, again, thats the longterm strategy here. All right. Deputy spokesperson for secretary of state john kerry, marie harf, thanks for your time tonight. Thank you so much, ari. Absolutely. I want to turn to chris murphy, democrat from connecticut, member of the Senate Foreign relations committee. Good evening, senator. Good evening. You have said you support what the president is doing at this juncture. Why . Well, i think hes laid out some more limited but very important goals. Clearly, the United States stands against genocide and protecting this small Minority Group that has consolidated up on the top of a mountain is a legitimate use of American Humanitarian but also military power. And, of course, we are always going to protect our own people who are right now in irbil and who are under threat from an advancing isil army. Now, the question is, when does Congress Come into play here . There is a war powers obligation on behalf of the president if these operations are to last past about 30 days in time to come to the United States congress and seek additional authorization. Today youre seeing relatively broad support for these limited actions as we await Additional Information and evidence from the administration that they are going to be real controls to make sure this isnt open ended, this doesnt spill over into months and years. Right. And, i mean, you mentioned the war powers act which we should mention president s in both parties disputed aspects of its constitutionality. As youre saying, its a big part of the timing. Yet many of your colleagues, senator, arent interested in this because they want it to expire by 30 days but several republican senators have said this should be an even larger military operation. Yeah, i think its a big mistake to have the United States try to weigh in in what is really a regional proxy war between shia and sunni. Right now were already severely compromised. In iraq, we are now with these actions increasing our support for a shia dictator, an iranian proxy fighting a sunni insurgency. Of course, within the same conflict, just on the other side of a relatively artificial border in syria, we are supporting with increasing fur ferocity a sunni insurgentsy against a shiite leader with iranian support. This is a tricky situation for the United States to be in and part of the reason why so many of us are supporting limited objectives but not supporting any additional measures because it will further compromise a position that is untenable. The United States essentially right now being on two sides of the same conflict in the region. Yeah, and you may have heard secretary of state kerrys spokesperson just previously not able to say whether we are at war with isis or not. What is your answer to that question . And do you think it matters . Well, were not legally at war with isis. We have an authorization that congress has granted the president with respect to a war that was waged against saddam hussein, and so if there is going to be a new longterm engagement against isis, that would require, in my opinion, the president to come back to congress and get a new authorization. We have to have a much broader conversation because right now we have 15 authorizations for military force on the books that the president can pick from, but legally, we are not at war with isis and that would require congressional action if we were to open up a much broader front. And what would you like to see the end game of this set of operations look like . Well, ultimately i think our end game has to be the protection of our people there. And we have the ability as we move into days and weeks not simply to use firepower to protect them but get them out of irbil. I hope thats part of their plan. The question of trying to protect this Minority Group is a more difficult one. Its not clear that that can be achieved in just a period of days or weeks. Isis is strong. Maybe we can disable them within a shortterm military campaign, but if we cant, thats a much more difficult conversation. If there continues to be an ongoing threat to Minority Groups, to small religious groups, requiring a larger american response, then that has to be a conversation that the congress and the full American Public takes part in. Right. Isis is much more of a conventionalstyle military here than what weve seen in al qaeda. For example, the 2001 aumf against al qaeda which said you can go anywhere to find them, but they were basically a stateless actor. Do you think its ultimately a good idea to lightly poke this army and then say, well, were not going to do much more because we dont want to have this larger fight with them . Yeah, i think thats really the operative question here. If youre not all in, theres a question of whether youre in at all. And remember, weve been fighting taliban for ten years in afghanistan. Not just with Occasional Air strikes from above, but with substantial ongoing ground operations and they are only slightly less strong today than they were at the outset of that conflict, so i think thats why this has to be a broader conversation because a lo of us are going to raise some real serious concerns about the ability of the United States to poke and prod from the air without ultimately engaging at a broader level. All right. Senator chris murphy, thank you for your time tonight. I really appreciate it. Thank you. And joining me now is former governor howard dean, who ran, of course, a first major president ial campaign against the iraq war in 2004. Good evening, governor. Hi, a rirri, how are you . Im good. Tell us your thoughts. Do you support the president s operation as conceurrently defi . Lets stop back for a second. A lot of progressives are very suspicious because this is iraq. Because the American People have been lied to before about iraq. I want people to try to imagine this as rwanda or bosnia. I think a lost thit of things c in that way. My position is similar to chris murphys. With this exception. Unlike the taliban and the situation in afghanistan where you have a pretty corrupt president , and a pretty difficult situation, the kurds are a real country. Our policy in iraq is not entirely sensible. Were trying to keep the country together. 1 3 of it are our friends which are the kurds. Another third are essentially corrupt dictators. That maliki, whos aligned with iran who for some reason we just recently realized we need to get out of there and the third section is divided between people who are pretty much like the nazis, absolute terrorists, almost subhuman, and sunnis and sunnis who have legitimate grief, grievances against the government of maliki. So this is a different situation. We are supporting a, what i think is a country, which is kurdistan. I think thats reasonable. We do not under any circumstances want to have boots on the ground, but were fighting with somebody who can defend themselves as opposed to whats happening in afghanistan or what was happening in vietnam. I support the president but he needs to look at the longterm iraq policy, not just this short interlude. When you divide it up that way, governor, look at the history and skiepticism, well warranted. Is isis a fundamentally different and more dangerous enemy than saddam husseins government from all those years ago . Isis is terribly dangerous to the whole world. They are absolutely ruthless. They have no value on human life whatsoever. Theyre exterminating practically every my forininori can get their hands on. These are people who are deeply entrenched in causing trouble all over the middle east, and they will draw america back in. I think its better to get rid of them sooner before they actually control real territory. Are you making to some degree, then, an antiwar argument for this kind of intervention . Because if they get bigger, you fear that we might get pulled in either way . Is that what youre saying . The reason well get pulled in is if they get to the border of israel, which i think is likely if they take over syria, the israelis will need our help in order to fend them off. I do not believe we should have boots on the ground in the middle east. I do not believe that. The way to stop boots on the ground is make sure isis does not get further. We have a good ally. Welltrained ally in the kurds. We should support them. So, part of what youre saying, governor, there, is different than the public emphasis the president has offered up to this point, you just spoke to the fact that isis very clearly does want to move into the syria vacuum. Thats what its been able to do and get a foot hold, why in its name it talks about being of iraq and syria and gets you all the way out west to israels eastern border. Why doesnt the president speak to that sort of geostrategic goal, in addition to the humanitarian emphasis he offered last night . I think because in the state department, theres not a clear comprehensive vision of the entire middle east. I think they take this country by country, and thats a mistake. It turns out, i think the president has mostly been doing the right thing. He couldnt intervene in syria because to intervene in syria, on the side of the sunni, is to help not just the reasonable thoughtful moderate sunni who are democrats, with a small d but also to be on the same side as isis. That was an impossible situation. This is not an impossible situation. This is a group of people who essentially have their own country, the kurds. They have a welltrained fighting force. They simply need support. We ought to be able to do that from the air. Under no circumstances should we put boots on the ground. And let me ask you the domestic question, for those who you mentioned progressives earlier. For nose who believe this president is credible on this summ subject, because of his record, the type of campaign he ran, but still maintain the concern and skepticism about Mission Creep, what do you think the right domestic line is, at which point folks should say politically and otherwise this has gone too far or he needs to go to the congress . I have no problem with him going to the congress. I think thats always a good idea. This congress, of course, has been particularly awful in getting anything done whatsoever. But i think thats what the constitution says, and i always thought then to tonkin gulf resolution resulted in a lot of trouble that never should have happened over the last 30, 40 years. I do also think that we look, im not for wars. I think i pretty much establish that during my campaign. But there are violent, very bad people in the world who are willing to do the kinds of things that isis is doing. They want to bring back female genital mutilation. Theyre shooting christians and all other kinds of religious minorities. They have to be stopped. You cant simply hope that diplomacy is going to solve that problem. Thats why i support what the president s doing. All right. Strong words from former governor howard dean. Appreciate you sharing your expertise with us tonight. Thank you. Thank you. After all the military action we have had in iraq, should we trust the president or any president when were told that we will not be allowed to be dragged into fighting another war or ground operations . Were going to talk about that straight ahead. With nfl mobile on verizon. Yes get in there go, go, go, go, yes lets go, drew. The notsogood more would be them always watching you. Go for it, paul get open come on, paul lets go hustle what is that, chamomile tea . uh, lattes. You wanna take a nap . get the good more with nfl mobile, free with the more everything plan. Exclusively from verizon. Now get 50 off all new smartphones. When the president spoke yesterday, you may have never heard of the yezidi people. Now were back in iraq preventing what the president said could be a potential act of genocide against them. Well have some more context on that, straight ahead. Like it . Dont live in miltons world. Live in the modern world, where you could save money on Prime Minister<\/a>. The white house is trying to oust Nuri Al Maliki<\/a> who has been criticized for his failure to form an inclusive or governing coalition. That is difficult. Al maliki has so many enemies he may be afraid losing power will mean losing his life. One former u. S. Official in iraq said yesterday maliki knows if he steps down, virtually he is a dead man. Now, while many forces in the Region Support<\/a> a change of government there, few American Allies<\/a> are backing todays air strikes in general. Great britain will not join the strikes. Limiting its support to the humanitarian mission. Turkey, a key nato ally, said its bases were not used for those u. S. Strikes. And today, a june statement that isis circulated was put back out and was addressed to, quote, america, the defender of the cross. Saying, soon enough, you will be in direct confrontation forced to do so god willing and the sons of islam have prepared themselves for this day, so wait and we will be waiting, too. Marie rarf is the state departments deputy spokesperson, former cia analyst on the middle east and served on president obamas reelection campaign. Thank you for joining me on a busy day for you. Thank you for having me, ari. Happy to be here. Great. Let me start directly. Is the u. S. Now at war with isis . Well, look, weve been clear for months now that isis is an incredibly dangerous enemy, not just for iraq, not just for the region at large, but for the United States<\/a> and the rest of the world. So the president made very clear last night that they present a threat. We dont want them to be able to advance closer to irbil, because as you said, we have a very large conflict there, a joint Operation Center<\/a> there where were sharing intelligence with the iraqis, themselves. So we took some strikes today as you mentioned to halt their advance and give the kurds really some room for this really good fighting force they have, the peshmerga, to regroup, rearm. Were helping them do that. And take the fight aggressively to isil. We know thats the longterm solution here. I notice you didnt say we are at war. Will you say were not at war . Are we not at war with isis at this point . Isis, or isil, whatever you want to use, is an incredibly dangerous terrorist organization. They are isis, itself, said theyre at war with the different sects in iraq, christians, yezidis, shia, sunni, kurds. Everyone who gets in their way. Look at the horrific photos and videos theyre putting out to see how barbaric they are. The president made clear well take military action to prevent them from advancing toward irbil. The same concept would apply to baghdad, of course. We have a number of people there as well. Also took action on the humanitarian side. To use u. S. Military assets to get much needed food and water. Tens of thousands of people are on top of this mountain potentially starving to death. Where the u. S. Military saw they could help, we absolutely wanted to do so. Right. And that goal of helping has been laid out. I listened to the white house Conference Call<\/a> last night. As you know, your colleagues talking about the validity the white house thinks it has under domestic and International Law<\/a> and said internationally this is valid in part because the Iraqi Government<\/a> has requested this u. S. Involvement. Does that mean, marie, if a new government does not authorize this, or withdraws that support, that then the u. S. Would have to seat these operations . Withhen we talked last nightd today about the iraqis requesting our adistance, parts of it are the new government. Theyve named a new president , theyve requested our assista assistant we put up on the screen several officials you mentioned in your state Department Briefing<\/a> today. Yes. Beyond al maliki, who have said, according to the u. S. , according to the state department, that they are on board. But if that changes in the future, in your view, then does the u. S. Have to cease these operations . Well, some of those officials are part of the new government was the point that i was making. Sure. Theyre partway through this government formation process. Weve been working with both the old government and the new government. So i understand the question, but the point i was making is that a number of these officials are part of the new government. A number of them are religious leaders or tribal leaders. We really have seen across the board iraqie leaders asking the United States<\/a> for assistance and want the iraqis to government with government formation. We want a new government fully formed as soon as possible. Theyll pick their Prime Minister<\/a>. Hopefully that will happen in the coming days. Now, as you know, the president said this operation isnt open ended. Administration officials declining to give an exact end date. Thats not unusual in a military campaign. But what do you think, is it reasonable to say this operation would still be going, say, a month from now . Well, there are two distinct operations here. In terms of the humanitarian side, that is a very discreet operation. If we can get humanitarian supplies to the mountain and help the Kurdish Peshmerga<\/a> allow for the yezidis to leave the mountain, thats a little more time bound. Whether its in irbil or baghdad, that is not time bound. This is something we care about very deeply, but to be clear, theres no longterm u. S. Military solution to the problem in iraq. Our longterm strategy here is to help the iraqi forces, help the kurds, help them fight this threat on their own, give them some space and time to regroup and really get better at this because, again, thats the longterm strategy here. All right. Deputy spokesperson for secretary of state john kerry, marie harf, thanks for your time tonight. Thank you so much, ari. Absolutely. I want to turn to chris murphy, democrat from connecticut, member of the Senate Foreign<\/a> relations committee. Good evening, senator. Good evening. You have said you support what the president is doing at this juncture. Why . Well, i think hes laid out some more limited but very important goals. Clearly, the United States<\/a> stands against genocide and protecting this small Minority Group<\/a> that has consolidated up on the top of a mountain is a legitimate use of American Humanitarian<\/a> but also military power. And, of course, we are always going to protect our own people who are right now in irbil and who are under threat from an advancing isil army. Now, the question is, when does Congress Come<\/a> into play here . There is a war powers obligation on behalf of the president if these operations are to last past about 30 days in time to come to the United States<\/a> congress and seek additional authorization. Today youre seeing relatively broad support for these limited actions as we await Additional Information<\/a> and evidence from the administration that they are going to be real controls to make sure this isnt open ended, this doesnt spill over into months and years. Right. And, i mean, you mentioned the war powers act which we should mention president s in both parties disputed aspects of its constitutionality. As youre saying, its a big part of the timing. Yet many of your colleagues, senator, arent interested in this because they want it to expire by 30 days but several republican senators have said this should be an even larger military operation. Yeah, i think its a big mistake to have the United States<\/a> try to weigh in in what is really a regional proxy war between shia and sunni. Right now were already severely compromised. In iraq, we are now with these actions increasing our support for a shia dictator, an iranian proxy fighting a sunni insurgency. Of course, within the same conflict, just on the other side of a relatively artificial border in syria, we are supporting with increasing fur ferocity a sunni insurgentsy against a shiite leader with iranian support. This is a tricky situation for the United States<\/a> to be in and part of the reason why so many of us are supporting limited objectives but not supporting any additional measures because it will further compromise a position that is untenable. The United States<\/a> essentially right now being on two sides of the same conflict in the region. Yeah, and you may have heard secretary of state kerrys spokesperson just previously not able to say whether we are at war with isis or not. What is your answer to that question . And do you think it matters . Well, were not legally at war with isis. We have an authorization that congress has granted the president with respect to a war that was waged against saddam hussein, and so if there is going to be a new longterm engagement against isis, that would require, in my opinion, the president to come back to congress and get a new authorization. We have to have a much broader conversation because right now we have 15 authorizations for military force on the books that the president can pick from, but legally, we are not at war with isis and that would require congressional action if we were to open up a much broader front. And what would you like to see the end game of this set of operations look like . Well, ultimately i think our end game has to be the protection of our people there. And we have the ability as we move into days and weeks not simply to use firepower to protect them but get them out of irbil. I hope thats part of their plan. The question of trying to protect this Minority Group<\/a> is a more difficult one. Its not clear that that can be achieved in just a period of days or weeks. Isis is strong. Maybe we can disable them within a shortterm military campaign, but if we cant, thats a much more difficult conversation. If there continues to be an ongoing threat to Minority Group<\/a>s, to small religious groups, requiring a larger american response, then that has to be a conversation that the congress and the full American Public<\/a> takes part in. Right. Isis is much more of a conventionalstyle military here than what weve seen in al qaeda. For example, the 2001 aumf against al qaeda which said you can go anywhere to find them, but they were basically a stateless actor. Do you think its ultimately a good idea to lightly poke this army and then say, well, were not going to do much more because we dont want to have this larger fight with them . Yeah, i think thats really the operative question here. If youre not all in, theres a question of whether youre in at all. And remember, weve been fighting taliban for ten years in afghanistan. Not just with Occasional Air<\/a> strikes from above, but with substantial ongoing ground operations and they are only slightly less strong today than they were at the outset of that conflict, so i think thats why this has to be a broader conversation because a lo of us are going to raise some real serious concerns about the ability of the United States<\/a> to poke and prod from the air without ultimately engaging at a broader level. All right. Senator chris murphy, thank you for your time tonight. I really appreciate it. Thank you. And joining me now is former governor howard dean, who ran, of course, a first major president ial campaign against the iraq war in 2004. Good evening, governor. Hi, a rirri, how are you . Im good. Tell us your thoughts. Do you support the president s operation as conceurrently defi . Lets stop back for a second. A lot of progressives are very suspicious because this is iraq. Because the American People<\/a> have been lied to before about iraq. I want people to try to imagine this as rwanda or bosnia. I think a lost thit of things c in that way. My position is similar to chris murphys. With this exception. Unlike the taliban and the situation in afghanistan where you have a pretty corrupt president , and a pretty difficult situation, the kurds are a real country. Our policy in iraq is not entirely sensible. Were trying to keep the country together. 1 3 of it are our friends which are the kurds. Another third are essentially corrupt dictators. That maliki, whos aligned with iran who for some reason we just recently realized we need to get out of there and the third section is divided between people who are pretty much like the nazis, absolute terrorists, almost subhuman, and sunnis and sunnis who have legitimate grief, grievances against the government of maliki. So this is a different situation. We are supporting a, what i think is a country, which is kurdistan. I think thats reasonable. We do not under any circumstances want to have boots on the ground, but were fighting with somebody who can defend themselves as opposed to whats happening in afghanistan or what was happening in vietnam. I support the president but he needs to look at the longterm iraq policy, not just this short interlude. When you divide it up that way, governor, look at the history and skiepticism, well warranted. Is isis a fundamentally different and more dangerous enemy than saddam husseins government from all those years ago . Isis is terribly dangerous to the whole world. They are absolutely ruthless. They have no value on human life whatsoever. Theyre exterminating practically every my forininori can get their hands on. These are people who are deeply entrenched in causing trouble all over the middle east, and they will draw america back in. I think its better to get rid of them sooner before they actually control real territory. Are you making to some degree, then, an antiwar argument for this kind of intervention . Because if they get bigger, you fear that we might get pulled in either way . Is that what youre saying . The reason well get pulled in is if they get to the border of israel, which i think is likely if they take over syria, the israelis will need our help in order to fend them off. I do not believe we should have boots on the ground in the middle east. I do not believe that. The way to stop boots on the ground is make sure isis does not get further. We have a good ally. Welltrained ally in the kurds. We should support them. So, part of what youre saying, governor, there, is different than the public emphasis the president has offered up to this point, you just spoke to the fact that isis very clearly does want to move into the syria vacuum. Thats what its been able to do and get a foot hold, why in its name it talks about being of iraq and syria and gets you all the way out west to israels eastern border. Why doesnt the president speak to that sort of geostrategic goal, in addition to the humanitarian emphasis he offered last night . I think because in the state department, theres not a clear comprehensive vision of the entire middle east. I think they take this country by country, and thats a mistake. It turns out, i think the president has mostly been doing the right thing. He couldnt intervene in syria because to intervene in syria, on the side of the sunni, is to help not just the reasonable thoughtful moderate sunni who are democrats, with a small d but also to be on the same side as isis. That was an impossible situation. This is not an impossible situation. This is a group of people who essentially have their own country, the kurds. They have a welltrained fighting force. They simply need support. We ought to be able to do that from the air. Under no circumstances should we put boots on the ground. And let me ask you the domestic question, for those who you mentioned progressives earlier. For nose who believe this president is credible on this summ subject, because of his record, the type of campaign he ran, but still maintain the concern and skepticism about Mission Creep<\/a>, what do you think the right domestic line is, at which point folks should say politically and otherwise this has gone too far or he needs to go to the congress . I have no problem with him going to the congress. I think thats always a good idea. This congress, of course, has been particularly awful in getting anything done whatsoever. But i think thats what the constitution says, and i always thought then to tonkin gulf resolution resulted in a lot of trouble that never should have happened over the last 30, 40 years. I do also think that we look, im not for wars. I think i pretty much establish that during my campaign. But there are violent, very bad people in the world who are willing to do the kinds of things that isis is doing. They want to bring back female genital mutilation. Theyre shooting christians and all other kinds of religious minorities. They have to be stopped. You cant simply hope that diplomacy is going to solve that problem. Thats why i support what the president s doing. All right. Strong words from former governor howard dean. Appreciate you sharing your expertise with us tonight. Thank you. Thank you. After all the military action we have had in iraq, should we trust the president or any president when were told that we will not be allowed to be dragged into fighting another war or ground operations . Were going to talk about that straight ahead. With nfl mobile on verizon. Yes get in there go, go, go, go, yes lets go, drew. The notsogood more would be them always watching you. Go for it, paul get open come on, paul lets go hustle what is that, chamomile tea . uh, lattes. You wanna take a nap . get the good more with nfl mobile, free with the more everything plan. Exclusively from verizon. Now get 50 off all new smartphones. When the president spoke yesterday, you may have never heard of the yezidi people. Now were back in iraq preventing what the president said could be a potential act of genocide against them. Well have some more context on that, straight ahead. Like it . Dont live in miltons world. Live in the modern world, where you could save money on Car Insurance<\/a> in half the time. Esurance. Backed by allstate. Click or call. So factors like diet can negatively impact good bacteria . Even if youre healthy and active. Phillips Digestive Health<\/a> support is a duoprobiotic that helps supplement good bacteria found in two parts of your digestive tract. Im doubly impressed phillips Digestive Health<\/a>. A daily probiotic. My motheits delicious. Toffee in the world. So now weve turned her toffee into a business. My goal was to take an idea and make it happen. Im janet long and i formed my Toffee Company<\/a> through legalzoom. I never really thought i would make money doing what i love. We created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. Go to legalzoom. Com today and make your business dream a reality. At legalzoom. Com we put the law on your side. We must not let history repeat itself. These calls to be dragged back into a war in iraq must be rejected because the reality is theres no military solution in iraq. Since 1991, four u. S. President s have ordered military operations in iraq. And multiple elected to congresses have authorized those operations or at least generally allowed them to proceed. We now that history. Its a big reason why the nation is so war wary today. And while politicians often prove more hawkish than their constituents, lately even the republicanled house arrived at what may be its most skeptical position on iraq ever. Just last month, the house passed a resolution designed to slow any march back into that country. The bill required the president to get approval from congress before sending any new combat troops to iraq. That line in the sand drew huge bipartisan support. 370 to just 40. That is a long way from 2002 when the house voted by 296 to 133 to authorize president bush to go to iraq and go to war. Support was even higher there in the senate with 77 votes for war. Now, lets be clear, the president did not declare war yesterday, did not call for regime change yesterday, and as i mentioned earlier in my discussion with governor dean, this president has a lot more credibility and consistency on the issue of iraq than most plin politicians. Theres a but here. The question does remain. Its one worth asking. With skepticism of Iraqi Intervention<\/a> at an alltime high, why are we headed back toward some kind of military role in that nation . Joining me now, congresswoman barbara lee, democrat from california. Good evening. Good evening. Im glad to be with you. Question, why are we headed back . Well, lets hope that were not headed back. The president laid it out very clearly last night. One is that theres a very, very serious issue right now as it relates to genocide that could be perpetrated. And so were there as the president said to prevent a horrific act which could be an act of genocide. Secondly, we have United States<\/a> personnel there. And part of the military strategy now is to ensure that our personnel are protected and secured. So its very limited and its targeted. Anything beyond that, let me tell you, the president should come to congress and debate it, and we mentioned the resolution before congressman mcgovern, congressman jones, myself. Let me it is no no sentiment, i think, in our country, to go back in a combat role in iraq. And so congresswoman, let me ask you, then and, yes, youve been clear on that. Does your resolution do anything in your view that would limit this particular set of operations at any point . Yes. I think what it does is because certainly first of all, Mission Creep<\/a> could happen. This could be expanded into a broader conflict. I think this resolution very clearly says that any expansion of military conflict, especially as it relates to combat troops, the president would be required to only to congress. But i also have to say that last night, and i listened to the president s speech very clearly, he very clearly stated theres no military solution in iraq, and that he did not intend to engage militarily in iraq. So this operation at this point is targeted. Its limited but it cant go any further. I think that the American People<\/a> must be vigilant because theres always the risk that there could be a rationale for it to spread. So were saying that the president must come to congress if, in fact, the mission changes. Right. Youre speaking to that relationship between supporting something that may have a good goal, but also being clear upfront about the line. Let me ask the hard question, which is more a question admittedly for the president than for you at this juncture, congresswoman. Given that rationale about genocide, if these air strikes dont work, and then the genocide that has been predicted and discussed happens, is the position then of the white house and is it the proper position that that should be allowed to happen because we dont want anything more than air strikes . Well, thats premature, and, again, im glad you said thats for the white house to decide. Let me tell you what i think. In terms of the protection of these, what, 40,000, 50,000 people. Yep. One is the United Nations<\/a> and the International Community<\/a> right now are talking about how to develop a humanitarian and evacuation corridor. We must support that and call on the World Community<\/a> to support this International Evacuation<\/a> corridor, excuse me, and do this right away. Secondly, i think if the president intends to use combat troops, especially, or expand the operation, its essential that congress be called back into session. And we debate that and talk about that because, no, we do not want to see anyone die and genocide occur as a result of what is taking place. Isis is very, very dangerous. As the previous speaker, howard dean, and others have said. But we cannot engage militarily in this conflict and be drawn back into what, unfortunately, was a War Without End<\/a> because we see now what has taken place. Its time that we recognize that the iraqis need to come together. The region needs to come together. Come up with some form of a regional stability program, process, diplomatic initiative, and try to get this and allow the iraq can i is moving forwar support that effort. No way should we be there for the long run militarily. Briefly, the other line from perspective of limiting this beyond the ground operation piece is other types of air strikes. Senator graham now saying this doesnt go far enough unless we also do at least air strikes in syria. Briefly your response. Well, i say thats what mission grecreep is all about, expanding the United States<\/a> role militarily in the region which the American People<\/a>, quite frankly, do not want to see happen. We have got to figure out a strategy thats going to allow for the end of this conflict with our support, but not engage militarily. Its tough. Yes. But i tell you, we cannot go down this road again. We did it in afghanistan. We did it in iraq. We lost thousands of our brave young men and women. Our National Treasury<\/a> is lost to the tune of a trillion dollars or so. So we must figure this out in a way that makes sense. That does not engage the United States<\/a> in military combat operation anymore. Congresswoman barbara lee, thank you for your views and your time tonight. Thank you. Now, after efforts to extend a ceasefire between israel and hamas failed, today the violence there resumed. Another big story that weve been watching. Where do things go from here . Thats straight ahead. In the nation, the safest feature in your car is you. Add vanishing deductible from nationwide insurance and get 100 off for every year of safe driving. Which for you, shouldnt be a problem. Just another way we put members first, because we dont have shareholders. Join the nation. Nationwide is on your side. Oohh, you got it o i love the looks of it. sound of garage closing nobody touches my dodge dart, jake johnson not even your best friend slash neighbor . No one i can still get in craig id like to see you try all id have to do is roll in, dude. Lets see it i choose not to right now come on indiana common, let me in. Let me in mmmm let me sit in the car mmmm dont touch my dart we regret, the people regret the casualties we have. The terrorists. I dont know of any army that does more than the israeli army does to avoid some of the casualties. Israel Prime Minister<\/a> Benjamin Netanyahu<\/a> continuing his u. S. Media outreach on fox news last night, hours before a threeday ceasefire came to an end. Shortly after it expired today at 8 00 a. M. Local time, militants in gaza fired rockets into southern israel, ending what was the longest pause in this conflict since it began an a month ago. Israel responded with air strikes hitting 70 targets in the gaza strip which killed five people, according to the gaza health ministry, including a 10yearold boy. The israeli army said 61 rockets have been fired at israel since the ceasefire broke this morning. Earlier, they reported two rockets fired from gaza hours before dawn. Two israeli sustained injuries from shrapnel, according to israels emergency services. Now, anger over the ongoing conflict also spilled into the west bank where palestinians marched in support of gaza and hamas and clashes between protesters and Israeli Security<\/a> forces reportedly left at least one person dead. Well, now with the egypt brokered negotiations at a stand still, its not clear where things go from here. Israel offered to extend the ceasefire with no added conditions. Hamas refused to do so, however, unless israel met its demand to end the gaza blockade and answer a seaport. A hamas spokesperson said in a statement just out today, we think israels dragging its feet. They did not respond to our demands and have not done a thing to show theres a reason to extend the ceasefire. However, the door to continued conversations is not closed. The decision to comply with our requirements is in israeli hands. The israeli delegation returned from cairo this morning. The government later saying in a statement, israel will not hold negotiations under fire. And startup ny companies will be investing hundreds of millions of dollars in jobs and infrastructure. Thanks to startup ny, businesses can operate tax free for 10 years. No property tax. No business tax. And no sales tax. Which means more growth for your business, and more jobs. Its not just business as usual. See how new york can help your business grow, at startup. Ny. Gov where the reward was that what if tnew car smelledit card and the freedom of the open road . A card that gave you that im 16 and just got my first car feeling. Presenting the buypower card from capital one. Redeem earnings toward part or even all of a new chevrolet, buick, gmc or cadillac with no limits. So every time you use it, youre not just shopping for goods. Youre shopping for something great. Learn more at buypowercard. Com been all fun and games, here at the harrison household. But one dark, stormy evening. She needed a good meal and a good family. So we gave her purina cat chow complete. Its great because it has the four cornerstones of nutrition. Everything a cat needs for the first step to a healthy, happy life. Purina cat chow complete. Share your rescue story and join us in building better lives. One rescue at a time. What if it were more than something to share . What if a photo could build that shelf youve always wanted . Or fix a leaky faucet . Or even give you your saturday back . The new snapfix app revolutionizes local service. Just snap a photo and angies list coordinates a toprated provider to do the work on your schedule. The app makes it easy. The power of angies list makes it work. Download snapfix for free. And were new to the pacific northwest. The rain, the mud babam its there. The outside comes in. Its kinda nasty so you start the towelmop shuffle. Where are you sun . [ doorbell rings ] oh, wow, its a swiffer wetjet. This puts my towel mopping to shame. Whoa ewww. Sunshine is overrated, now we can get messy. [ laughs ] in recent days, yezidi men, women, and children from the area of sinjarlives, thousands, thousands are hiding high up on the mountain with little but the clothe on their backs. When we have the unique capabilities to help avert a massacre, then i believe the United States<\/a> of america cannot turn a blind eye. We can act. Carefully and responsibly to prevent a potential act of genocide. As everyone suddenly knows, tens of thousands of yezidi refugees are stranded on a remote mountaintop in northern iraq, many dying of thirst and starvation, and surrounded by isis militants threatening, as well, to kill them directly. Were beginning to learn more about this small religious second who have become a major focal point in the conflict in iraq. Theyre a group that championed the president s of American Military<\/a> in the not too distant past. A decade ago, u. S. Soldiers were welcomed as saviors by the yezidi community. Back then, American Forces<\/a> used the same mountain as the ultimate lookout post. Now these are killing grounds. Now the looming humanitarian tragedy prompted the u. S. To air drop the supplies weve been reporting on including food and water and its already too late for some according to unicef. Dozens of yeziti children have already died of dehydration. Many, many more face similar risk. Earlier this week during a session of iraqs parliament, a distraught yezidi lawmaker made a plea for help thats gone around the world, saying, were being slaughtered. Our entire religion is being wiped off the face of the earth. Im begging you in the name of humanity. While the u. S. Continues air strikes against the Group Targeting<\/a> the yezidis, members of this religious continue to wait. One man trapped on the mountain spoke to itv news by phone. There is a human amount of terror and fear, he said. Adding whether we convert or not, they want to kill us. Joining me now, Foreign Affairs<\/a> reporter for the Washington Post<\/a> world views blog. Ishaan tharoor. Good evening to you. Good evening. Who are they and why are they targeted in this instance . The yezidis are a minority in iraq. Not a lot of them. Roughly under a million of them. The majority live in iraq still. Theyre elsewhere in europe as well. They practice a faith thats a fascinating mix of various traditions, abrahamic, nonabrahamic, that some muslims misinterpreted as devil worshipping for a variety of complex reasons. They have been targeted in the past by everyone from amongmon guls to the ottomans. Sinjar, where the mountain is, is their heartland for centuries. Isis in the current environment, it seems like the greatest existential threat they faced in a while. Let me play for you what secretary of state john kerry said about this because it goes to both humanitarian argument and the geopolitics where this has been something of a wakeup call in his argument. Take a listen. Campaign of terror against the innocent including the yezidi and christian minorities and its grotesque targeted acts of violence, show all the warning signs of genocide. For anyone who needed a wakeup call, this is it. And youve been reporting that that wakeup call actually suggests isis seems to have overdone it, so to speak, and this may be in its own help the kurds. Yes. In a certain sense. Its prompted the kind of american reaction that were seeing now that is embolden the Kurdish Forces<\/a>. The peshmerga. Where it looked like a defeated force just this weekend when they were retreating. The kurdish militias. Yes, the peshmerga. There was panic in irbil, a few days ago there were reports of people leaving town. The mood changed now that the zus directly involved. Well see what gains they make. There are Kurdish Forces<\/a> trying to regain routes to the mountain where the yezidis are stranded. Well see what kind of territory they can consolidate out of this. Weve talked a lot and reported a lot about how isis does a lot in terms of intimidation and promoting and menacing through social media and other mechanisms its killings. Sure. Speak to their strategic their strategic type of targeting here. Because obviously this isnt just a religious blood feud. They have a larger objective. Well, its hard to speak to strategy when the strategy does amount to grotesque, savage, barbaric acts of killing, enslavement of women for all sorts of purposes. Yes, theyre a group that has, you know, tried to burnish their jihadist chops in many ways on line through incredibly brazen acts of destruction of shrines, of the murder of people they believe as apostates. And this fits into what they want to create is that they are building this anachronistic, mythical islamic caliphate and reclaiming the sense of purity and this is all part of a larger project. What do you think theyll do with the dam they captured in mosul . Well, its, again, the details about that are a bit murky. And if we see the if we see the kind of kurdish gains that we may be seeing in the next few days, they may not have that dam for long. Could be pushed back. Could be pushed back. One argument that had been made at least, again, as you say, caution warranted. One argument, if they had full operational control for a long time, they could use that as a type of weapon, that could by some accounts actually flood baghdad. Yes, a 15 foot wall flood of water. Thats a bit too extreme at this point. Hopefully well see again, isis has been fighting on a number of fronts. Theyve been battling in oil fields, and its always a bit unclear how much actual operational control they have. Well see if the kurds can make real gains now they have a bit of cover. A bit of air cover. Something weve been discussing with leaders tonight how far the air cover goes and what the line is because we have a president saying this is important, but will not be a longterm, let alone ground operation. Right. Again, the u. S. Is inching toward a much more complicated geopolitical conflagration in the region. The iraqi peshmerga from syria related to other groups considered terror groups by the state department. Its hard to pick sides when everyone hates each other for five different reasons. Ishaan tharoor from the Washington Post<\/a>. With situations happening all the time all over the world, why do we choose to get involved in the one happening right now in iraq . 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One day, factories will work with the cloud. One day. Is today. Today i authorized two operations in iraq. Targeted air strikes to protect our american personnel. And a humanitarian effort to help save thousands of iraq cancan civilians trapped on a mountain without food and water and facing almost certain death. Heres something worth thinking about. Over the past 20 years, every american president had done what president obama did last night. Order air strikes against iraq. Saddam hussein started this cruel war against kuwait. Tonight the battle has been joined. Earlier today, i ordered Americas Armed<\/a> forces to strike military and security targets in iraq. On my orders, Coalition Forces<\/a> have begun striking selected targets of military importance to undermine saddam husseins ability to wage war. As we already know, most of those operations were justified by more than one reason. President s talk to both National Security<\/a> objectives and broader ideals. Like human rights or even democracy building. Last night, president obama presented his decision as a way not only to protect americans, to help ourselves, but also to help others. Earlier this week, one iraqi in the area cried to the world, there is no one coming to help. Well, today america is coming to help. Help may be on the way. It may be the difference between life and death for many innocent people. That is no small thing. But that help is certainly not available to everyone in equally dire conditions around the world. The u. S. , like most nations, has declined to intervene in massive humanitarian crises, from darfur, to syria. That civil war next to iraq still raging today actually claimed 170,000 lives already over 3 years. That is a much bigger scale than even what were considering doing right now in iraq. And the president has repeatedly said long before his announcement this week that just because we cant act everywhere does not mean we shouldnt act anywhere. And as a matter of pure Foreign Policy<\/a> doctrine, inconsistency isnt necessarily a vice. But look, as the world learns more about the plight of religious minorities in iraq, and watches president obama wade a little bit back into iraq, it is worth asking, what is so different about iraq . Why do humanitarian appeals seem to win there when they are ignored in so many other places . We have some experts who are going to help explore those important questions. Please stay with us. This is the first power plant in the country to combine solar and natural gas at the same location. During the day, we generate as much electricity as we can using solar. At night and when its cloudy, we use more natural gas. This ensures we can produce Clean Electricity<\/a> whenever our customers need it. Ugh. Heartburn. Did someone say burn . Try alka seltzer reliefchews. They work just as fast and taste better than tums smoothies assorted fruit. Mmm. Amazing. Yeah, i get that a lot. Alka seltzer heartburn reliefchews. Enjoy the relief. Watching your favorite players come on, get open. Yeah. With nfl mobile on verizon. Yes get in there go, go, go, go, yes lets go, drew. The notsogood more would be them always watching you. Go for it, paul get open come on, paul lets go hustle what is that, chamomile tea . uh, lattes. You wanna take a nap . get the good more with nfl mobile, free with the more everything plan. Exclusively from verizon. Now get 50 off all new smartphones. [ woman ] if you have moderate to severe Rheumatoid Arthritis<\/a> like me, and youre talking to your rheumatologist about a biologic. This is humira. This is humira helping to relieve my pain. This is humira helping me lay the groundwork. This is humira helping to protect my joints from further damage. Doctors have been prescribing humira for ten years. Humira works by targeting and helping to block that contributes to r. A. Symptoms. Humira is proven to help relieve pain and stop further joint damage in many adults. [ male announcer ] humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. Serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. Before treatment, get tested for tb. Tell your doctor if youve been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if youve had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flulike symptoms or sores. Dont start humira if you have an infection. [ woman ] take the next step. Talk to your doctor and visit humira. Com. This is humira at work. Were changing the way we do business, with startup ny. Weve created tax free zones throughout the state. And startup ny companies will be investing hundreds of millions of dollars in jobs and infrastructure. Thanks to startup ny, businesses can operate tax free for 10 years. No property tax. No business tax. And no sales tax. Which means more growth for your business, and more jobs. Its not just business as usual. See how new york can help your business grow, at startup. Ny. Gov welcome back, joining me, founding president of the american institute, and associate editor for the Washington Post<\/a>. James, let me start with you. Should we be more skept al of humanitarian efforts . I dont thing this one is selectively implied and its an Important Initiative<\/a> by the president. Look, america invested a lot in iraq. A lot of lives, lot of treasure, lot of political capital. President was right to get out of iraq, but he doesnt want to be no one wants to be the president who lost iraq. And i think Prime Minister<\/a> maliki mishandled his premiership. He abused, instead of incorporating sunnis into governance, and alienated people and has been, in fact, a fomenter of this unrest. No one expected isis, the cancer that is, would move so rapidly, absorb and steal so many weapons and become a state unto itself. I take your point that this is important and potentially very positive. I dont know that it would be tear to say no one expected it. Many of our critics have argued that leaving would embolden extremists. Well, leaving iraq was an agreement made with the Bush Administration<\/a> and Prime Minister<\/a> maliki. And the iraqis werent going to budge. So the withdrawal of troops was part of the status of forces agreement. And it was put in place. And it was done. The question now is, is that as a result of isis moving, theyre not only risking the lives of caldeans, hundreds of thousands, and yezidis, but theyre also moving north toward irbil as we understand which is where the caldean refugees have moved. Isis crosses that line, theres nowhere for the Caldean Christians<\/a> to go. Right. And so the issue here is that not only american lives are at risk in irbil, but also the lives of people who fled the areas where the isis group has taken over, and this is the potential humanitarian disaster the president was speaking about. Yeah. Let me two to yogo to you. Take a listen to a pretty revealing exchange at state department today. We had a situation where tens of thousands of people could starve to death and we have the ability to do something . Were going to do it. Why is it that you chose to stop a potential act of genocide in this one place when you have signally chosen not to prevent things youve actively described as genocide in other places . Dishonest. My job, our shot is to defend and talk about why we make decisions now today. I understand there are questions about why decades ago we didnt take action. Those are historical conversations that i think are not inappropriate, but that arent appropriate for me to discuss or opine on from up here. I fully recognize why the state department doesnt want to get into history, but its not just distant history. As weve been reporting, were not seeing the same approach to the slaughter in syria. Indeed. Just across that border, i mean, not more than 100 miles from this mountaintop, you have communities that have been decimated by the civil war in syria. You have 2 million refugees from the syrian con flicflictconflic. Now, truth be told, ari, were providing with the International Community<\/a> meaningful humanitarian aid to those civilian refugees in syria and many of whom have streamed across the border. Yes, we are selective here in the case of iraq. I think iraq is different. Iraq is different for a couple of different reasons. One is theres a different standard. The president in withdrawing forces told the American People<\/a> that iraq is reasonably stable and secure. And so theres a huge optic issue here if you have a slaughter of tens of thousands of people or at least mass starvation. And this is one where you can tie the humanitarian relief effort to a more kinetic operation as the military would call it, to the air strikes against isis. So its not just purely humanitarian mission. Its a humanitarian component to a broader Security Force<\/a> Assistance Mission<\/a> in iraq, in support of the iraq can i military and Kurdish Peshmerga<\/a>. James, youre nodding. Go ahead. The point here about iraq being different from syria is critical to understand. In syria, we were asked to be in a position not unlike libya, but libya on steroids, not only help and get involved but it was then pick up the pieces and create a system of governance. Weve done that in iraq. Didnt work. We dont want to get into it again. This is different. This is a shortterm immediate goal of stopping the slaughter of Caldean Christians<\/a>, of the syrians, of yezidis and stopping the advance toward irbil. We had a meeting with the National Security<\/a> folks last week with Caldean Christians<\/a>. They came away feeling their case was understood and the president respond ed. We need to understand lives are being saved and may help move the situation in iraq toward a new government that actually can represent all the people in that country. Yeah. And that was the greatest hope. If you can do something to isolate al maliki and also save lives and the president will certainly have a big step forward here that a lot of people will welcome. Thats the test. Thats a lot of the questions were going to ask. James zogby. Thank you very much for your time. That is all in for vis evening. Good news. The Rachel Maddow<\/a> show starts now with Steve Kornacki<\/a> sitting in for rachel. Good evening, ari, thanks for that. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Rachel has the night off. We start with the top story in the country tonight, today, this week. That is the renewed u. S. Military action in iraq. Where there have now been multiple rounds of u. S. Strikes on isis targets near the city of irbil. Two separate predator drone strikes on a mortar position, location from which mortars were being launched as well as a strike from Navy Fighter Jets<\/a> that dropped eight 500pound bombs on a convoy of seven isis vehicles. U. S. 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