Gubernatorial candidate throws a bombshell accusation at Chris Christie. Amidst this weeks obamacare chaos obamacare is made of people ahh weve got a Supreme Court shocker that everyone else missed. All in starts right now. Good evening, from new york. Im chris hayes. Tensions are enormously high in the west bank at this moment. As the Israeli Palestinian conflict seems headed toward an even greater escalation. These scenes you are seeing are thousands of palestinians marching in whats being described by israeli radio as the largest such protest in a decade. They started in ramallah in the west bank which falls under the control of the Palestinian Authority and marched toward jerusalem which is under israeli roll. Until now, the Palestine Authority has largely suppressed street protests like what youre seeing. Two protesters were already killed today. The crowds have marched on all the way to the checkpoint between the west bank and jerusalem. A checkpoint heavily manned by Israeli Defense forces and right now there are reports of gunfire and 10,000 protesters clashing with Israeli Defense forces. Joining me now by phone from ramallah, west bank, dr. Mustafa bargudi. Dr. Barghouti, can you tell me whats happening there this evening . We had a peaceful march, about 20,000, or maybe 25,000 people participated in it. We marched peacefully to protest against the assassination and massacre in gaza which has taken 800 the lives of 800 people already. And we marched for freedom. It was a peaceful march, and we were encountered by israeli army and military which started shooting highvelocity bullets at people. We have up until this moment 260 injuries. Six of them are very seriously injured. One died, unfortunately. One was killed by the israeli army. And there are several people who lost their life. Many have bullets in their legs and their chest and their abdomens. Ive just been to the hospital to see the injured people, and what i can tell you is that there is no justification whatsoever for this israeli army violence against the peaceful march. But the whole west bank is boiling, and the main reason is whats happenings in gaza and the fact that israel is blocking us from reaching jerusalem is what is considered the holiest night. Dr. Barghouti, youve long been a very outspoken proponent of nonviolent resistance to occupation. Are you confident that this can remain nonviolent given just what you just said . That the west bank is boiling, tensions are incredibly high, were seeing pictures of fireworks and fires, et cetera. Do you worry about this spiraling into something very violent and very deadly for both sides . Of course i worry. The main reason for this escalation is the fact we are talking about 800 people massacred in gaza. Mostly children and women. And 5,300 injured. 90 of children, women, civilians. You know, ive advocated nonviolence all my life, and each time i meet friends from the west, they will tell me we would like to see you march with thousands of people. Your demonstrations are not that big. Today that dream happened. It was like Martin Luther kings march, or gandhi march. And we had more than 25,000 people marching. Women, men, elderly people, even some children, and it was so peaceful. Then we were encountered with violence by the israeli army. I think the Israeli Government is losing its mind completely because tomorrow, on friday, you will see the whole west bank demonstrating. It is like a full uprising now. Now and that can be stopped only if this massacre in gaza is stopped. Youre using the english word, uprising. The word palestinians has used for that. Theres been much talk for a long time about the possibility of another intifada. Are we seeing the beginning of a third intifada tonight . Of course, it has started, but when you see intifada, people think of military action. That was the case, unfortunately, in the second intifada. Im talking about something similar to the first intifada which was totally popular, mostly unviolent. I hope we can keep it in such a manner, because we dont have what to defend ourselves with and believe a popular nonviolent approach would be more effective. Of course, what complicates the situation is whats happening in gaza and the massacres that are taking place. Today the israeli army, you know, 44 of that small little area which is called gaza, that is only 140 square miles, with 1. 8 Million People in it, 44 has been announced by the israeli army as nonsafe. People who were forced out of their homes by shelling the homes. Now the people are stuck in a very small area and are going to shelters which are schools, and today one of the honor roll schools was hit by the israeli army and killed people in it and injured 160 people in one hit. Theres no place for people that is safe in gaza and makes people very angry and makes people boil with anger. Dr. Mustafa barghouti on the phone from ramallah in the west bank amidst large street demonstrations at this moment. Thank you very much. Two things i should say about what dr. Barghouti said. The Israeli Government, of course, contends theyre takes all possible precautions, extraordinary precaution if you listen to the Israeli Defense forces. I think he said the majority of the casualties, the dead in gaza are women and children. The majority are not women and children. Women and children constitute a large number. By some figures, the majorities are civilians, however, theres contestation over the men who died there, whether theyre militants or civilians. The protests come at the end of another bloody day in gaza which saw the Palestinian Death toll rise well past 700. Israel has said its trying to avoid civilian casualties by warning palestinians to evacuate before targeting their neighborhoods. Thats exactly what the military said it did in its Northern City of beit hanoun, warning them to evacuate earlier this week ahead of an advance on hamas targets. As a u. N. School sheltering gazans was starting to evacuate today, the school took a direct hit. At least 16 people were killed. We watched the first casualties arrive at the local hospital, child after bloody child. This boy reeling in shock as doctors lost the battle to save a member of his family. Israeli military says it was not targeting the school building. They do acknowledge they were firing mortars in the area. Israel also suggests it could have been a hamas rocket gone astray that struck the school. The u. N. Says it cant definitively say who was responsible, they dont agree on what exactly happened in the runup to the strike. A spokesman for the Israeli Military told reporters it gave advanced warning of the operations in beit hanoun, appeal to the u. N. And red cross on monday to evacuate the school. The United Nations relief and works agency, the group that runs the school and frankly much of Civil Society inside gaza says the Israeli Military actually stood in the way of attempts to evacuate. A spokesman for the agency tweeted over the course of the day, unrwa tried to coordinate with the israeli army a window for the civilians to leave and it was never granted. United nations says at least 72 of its facilities in gaza including offices, schools, and hospitals have been damaged in the fighting and this is the third time a school sheltering refugees has come under attack. The brutal irony is the schools are among the only places the people of gaza can go for safety. Over 170,000 of them staying in improvised School Shelters according to the u. N. Agency that runs them. Israel has noted the fact that the same agency has found hamas rockets in two of its abandoned schools just in the past week. And accuses hamas of using facilities to store munitions. Relations between the United Nations and israel have long been fraught but seemed to have hit a new low in light of todays attack. With the United States providing the only dissenting vote. The reaction to the u. N. Vote from israeli Justice Minister tzipi livni sums it up, i have two words for you, get lost. Standing behind secretary of state john kerry in cairo today, u. N. Secretary general had strong words before both sides. Its morally wrong to kill your own people. Whole world has been watching, is watching with great concern. You must stop fighting. Well, chris, over the course of the past several week tensions have been building up obviously following the killing of three israeli teenagers, followed by the killing of a palestinian teenager. In addition to whats happening here in gaza, there has been a growing anger among the palestinian population which endures so much under israeli population in the west bank. All of these tensions came to a boil as a result of what is happening in gaza and lack of ceasefire and lack of outrage in the International Community that there isnt enough of an effort to stop it. The protest grew in number, grew in strength. As we saw, it led to clashes with the Israeli Military that ultimately led to fatalities. The concern, i think, for both israeli officials and the Palestinian Authority is that this could spiral into more violence on friday. It is a holy day. Thousands of people attend friday prayers in East Jerusalem. So you can expect it to be another flashpoint of confrontation between the Israeli Military, which puts a lot of restrictions on the mobility of palestinians into the holy sites of East Jerusalem and the palestinians who have been angered by what is happening here on the ground in gaza and elsewhere, chris. People are using the phrase at the margins, no one is officially calling it this, i should be clear, a third intifada. Explain the significance of that. Well, if in fact there is a third uprising, it would have a tremendous significance because of a few reasons. One, the last Palestinian Uprising took place in about 2001. It lasted for several years. It was a very violent period that really affected both the israeli Political Landscape as well as the palestinian Political Landscape. But more, i think, of a concern for humanitarian reasons would be that a violent Palestinian Uprising, a confrontational one, would certainly bring about more loss of life, more strict israeli measures on the west bank, as weve seen in the past. There is always a disproportionate number of palestinians killed as a result of the israeli measures taken in the west bank. So i think there is the concern that a third Palestinian Uprising could bring about the kind of violence we saw in 2001 and in the late 80s when the first Palestinian Uprising broke. But i think the underlying concern here among Many International observers is that this status quo has to change in this part of the world. The Israeli Palestinian conflict. A lot of political analysts and others are saying it is time for a new paradigm shift in trying to solve this problem. That the way this Peace Process has been unfolding for the past 20 years is not producing the desired results for either state. For the israeli state its not getting their people or the palestinian people, their rights or selfdetermination. What have we learned about the latest in gaza, particularly what appears to be artillery shelling of a u. N. Run school that was serving as a shelter . Well, weve heard from u. N. Officials who have not pointed the finger directly at the israelis, but have hinted that it is the israelis for a few reasons. One, there was intense fighting taking place there. The style and the type of the shelling was very consistent with what they believe to be israeli shelling of the area. And in addition to that, theyve also blamed israel because of the fact that all the u. N. Facilities in gaza, their gps has been given to the Israeli Military so there should not be shelling taking place around u. N. Schools or shelters. The Israeli Military has countered that by denying responsibility but not claiming responsibility. They also hinted that it may be hamas fault for firing rockets from the vicinity of the school and that they were simply returning fire. So a lot of questions, but in the eyes of the United Nations, on the ground, and in the eyes of the palestinians that weve been speaking to at the u. N. Facility and elsewhere, they belief that it was the israeli shells that landed in the vicinity of the school that killed those 15 palestinians including women and children, chris. Nbc news Foreign Correspondent ayman mohyeldin, thank you. Ted cruz is vowing to block confirmations of key state nominees to keep the faa, blocked flights flying into israel this week. You heard that right. That story is ahead. Summer eve. Now get the unmistakable thrill. And the incredible rush. Of the mercedesbenz youve always wanted. [ tires screech ] but you better get here fast. [ daughter ] yay, daddys here here you go, honey. Thank you. [ male announcer ]. Because a good thing like this. Phew [ male announcer ]. 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Honey, look at all these smart rewards points verizon just gave me. Ooh, you got a buddy. Im like a statue. I just signed up and, boom, all these points. And theres notsogood more. Youre a big guy. Oh no. Get the good more with Verizon Smart rewards and rack up points to use towards the things you really want. Now get 50 off all new smartphones. Faa decided late last night to end its ban out of telaviv ben gurion airport. An occasion for a victory lap by ted cruz who has intimated based on no evidence whatsoever that the white house was politicizing the faa using it as a form of leverage over the Israeli Government. In this decision by the faa raises serious questions. Was this a political decision, was this driven by the white house, was it driven by the state department . If it was based on Airline Safety, as they said, why did they single out israel . The faa put out a statement saying they made the decision after a careful review of the security situation at the airport in cooperation with u. S. Officials. Heres how president obama described the process. We have not made decisions when it comes to Airline Safety based on not just politics but even our Strong Alliance with israel. We have to just look at the facts. The initial ban that was imposed by the faa was based on israel needing to show us that, in fact, it was safe for commercial airlines to fly in. They worked through a checklist of concerns and mitigation measures that needed to be taken. Having completed those and convinced the faa, we move forward. In light of some scary moments a couple of days ago, the faa took some prudent action, but also engaged with israel and israel was able to answer those questions. Despite faas reversal, senator cruz is continuing to cast dispersions on the administrations motives doubling down on his vow to block confirmations of Key State Department nominees today. If it seems like that makes ted cruz look crazy, its crazy like a fox. Here to talk about what his motives might be, mckay coppins, Senior Writer for buzzfeed. What is ted cruz up to . You have to understand the politics and shadow primary going on in the Republican Party for the last year or so. Ted cruz has widely been seen along with rand paul as the primary contender for the rightwing base in the Republican Party ted cruz and rand paul. Rand paul. They were the main competitors for the tea party, right . Where ted cruz has tried to distinguish himself from rand paul over the past few months is on Foreign Policy and national security, right . Theres a specific weakness rand paul has on israel. On israel. Right. Rand paul has actually for months, you know actually basically his whole career been the pariah within the Republican Party when it comes to israel saying, you know, too much of the republican Foreign Policy has revolved around israel. He wants to cut off all foreign aid. And hes rand paul has tried recently to get closer to israel, but ted cruz is being smart here. Hes very strategically smart here by saying, you know, theres a the thinking is theres a lot of money in the Republican Base or in the republican establishment for israel hawks. Right . Right. So what hes done is emerge as the most hawkish proisrael republican over the last few days. This is policy entrepreneurship or political entrepreneurship. Hes seeing an opportunity in the market thats untaken which is demagoguing on the faa and he thinks that is going to distinguish him as hes the kind of guy that stands up for israel and help him with a certain part of the base, not just donors but voters as well. I mean, you have to remember a lot of evangelical christians, conservative evangelicals. Theres a lot of socially conservative evangelical Republican Voters who care a lot about this issue. And if they can see ted cruz coming out on fox news and saying i am 100 behind israel, the faa needs to think about this decision, this is a political conspiracy. When they see that happening, a lot of conservative voters are going to say, hey, this cruz guy is better than i thought. They had the christians united for israel events, that are very, very proisrael. This is an image, we have this, of rand paul praying with them. This is there he is. Hes praying with the folks. And he realizes that hes got weakness here. I mean, hes done a bunch of things recently to try to get right on this issue. Hes actually made a big offensive on this issue, but ted cruz is so far ahead of him because several months ago ted cruz came out and said, you know, rand and i differ on Foreign Policy. He tried to make it sound polite but it was a shot and he basely said im an internationally, neoconservative, when it comes to Foreign Policy which made rand paul and his camp very angry and responded angrily. Ever since then rand paul has tried to catch up but never quite caught up. You can see that today that rand is doing what he can, but you see he doesnt have he does not have the instinct the way ted cruz does. Mckay coppins from buzzfeed. Thank you for explaining that. All right. Whats going on between Chris Christie and the republican candidate for governor of new york state right now can pretty much be summed up like this. Oh, no, you didnt. You trying to call me out . Oh, nuhuh. Ill explain, ahead. Look younger in 8 weeks . I prefer today. Clairol age defy color collection. With our best breakthrough gray coverage. Lustruous, radiant color that looks 10 years younger. Today. Age defy color from clairol. If energy could come from anything . Or if power could go anywhere . 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Comcast business. Built for business. It is allout political war between the head of the Republican Governors Association and the republican nominee for governor in new york state. See, last week new jersey governor Chris Christie dismissed the idea of spending any rga money to campaign for rob astorino, the republican whos challenging christies fellow governor from across the river in new york, a guy by the name of andrew cuomo, a democrat. And in characteristic Chris Christie fashion, he was pretty harsh about it. Referring to astorino as a lost cause. We dont pay for landslides and dont invest in lost causes. This even though the rga pumped 1. 7 million into Chris Christies own reelection bid last year, a race he won by more than 20 points which sure sounds like a landslide to me. Astorino took issue with being caused a lost cause and shot back at christie suggesting hes not qualified to lead the rga at all. If Chris Christie is unable to help a republican condition for governor, maybe he should consider stopping down as chairman of the rga. He speculated maybe Chris Christie didnt want to support his bid for governor because he wanted to stay on Andrew Cuomos good side. I dont know if theres a connection with he and andrew cuomo on bridgegate or cuomo has something that hes Holding Back Information that could be damaging to the governor. That is a very serious allegation. Thats not to say its unique. In wondering aloud why Chris Christie and andrew cuomo seem so simpatico, astorino is giving question to whats been swirling for some time. Why do these two governors, big National Ambitions and big egos from opposite sides of the hudson river and opposing Political Parties seem to have each others backs . Having asked the question, himself, and called on christie resign as rga chairman, astorino was asked not to attend an rga meeting in aspen, colorado. He went, anyway, tweeting out this picture with his friend, governor rick perry of texas. Returning home to the support of rick perry along with three others not including Chris Christie. Joining me, rob astorino. First of all, you, i understand, met with the governor while you were which governor . Governor christie. Governor christie. You met with governor christie. You had a conversation. How did that go . A very little one. Very short. Yeah. It was quick. We both agreed to keep our own opinions. You know, im not changing my opinion. I think as rga chair it is his job to help elect republican governors. As well as help get republic cab governors reelected. Thats his chair. The same thing with the democratic governors association. The chair would do the same thing. So thats what i said the other day in manhattan, and thats what i said in aspen yesterday. And he says youre he called you a lost cause to your face . Call you a loser to your face . Seems like the kind of thing he would do. No, but you know what, i brought a copy of the New York Times. I said how much is a lost cause now . We have a governor in new york who is under investigation by federal prosecutors for potentially obstructing justice. Only in new york can the Anticorruption Commission already be corrupted which is what andrew cuomo allegedly has done. This race has turned dramatically in 24 hours. I should say since andrew cuomo is not here to defend himself, the New York Times article, 15 pages, basically disputing the specific charges and basically saying this was never legally constituted as an independent body, and it reported the whole way. Im just for the record since they are not here. I believe the federal prosecutor differs on that. Certainly the attorney general of new york differs on that and said so in court because this was set up as an independent investigation. The 25 members of the panel were deputized as basically assistant attorney generals with subpoena power. The allegations are from members of the commission was that andrew cuomo blocked subpoenas that went for his pay to pay plows. Corporate people who donated large sums of money for him. Media buying firm. Some serious allegations here steering away the investigations. Youre basely saying to Chris Christie, hey, this thing is on the front page of the New York Times, im not a lost cause now and he says well, i think what he says is were going to watch to see this. You know, but my point is okay. So heres the deal. What is the deal . People have been saying this in new york politics forever. What is deal with cuomo and christie . You said the thing everybody says behind closed doors. Does cuomo have the goods on Chris Christie on bridgegate . Do you think thats true . The Port Authority is controlled by new york and new jersey, governors of both, executive director, chair. They do the appointments. I dont think a disabled vehicle on the George Washington bridge is not known by both when it happens. So im not saying he does or doesnt. All im saying is if theres thats slightly disingenuous. If you think theres a wink and a nod, what i have said is if there is something that makes you unwilling to help the neighboring state, by the way, where youre always in new york city, raising money, and you should be doing that, then if youre unwilling or unable to do it, then maybe you shouldnt stay as rga chair. Thats what i said. I stand by that. I should say, the wall street journal had reported this back in christie called cuomo to complain that quo knows guy, pat foye, who ended up blowing up the bridgegate thing was pushing too hard an bridgegate, right . The wall street journal still stands by this. Cuomo the governors people said, absolutely not true, they knocked it down. Thats a case i dont know what the truth is. These guys clearly have a relationship. Well, yeah, they should. Theyre governors of neighboring states, so you will. Just like as county executives in westchester, i have a relationship with other county executives, democrat and republican. Weve crossed that threshold now where were 100 days away or so from an election and as the Republican Governor Association chairman, its his job as he was in connecticut to do, as hes been in New Hampshire and california. To be in new york and to help. Rob astorino, running for governor on the state of new york on the republican ticket. Thanks. Of course, we would welcome Governor Cuomo on the show any time for as long as hed like to talk. All right. Everyones wondering if the Supreme Court would actually strike down part of obamacare based on the very latest legal challenge, but it looks like the Supreme Court has already given us the answer. Thats ahead. , and i see that it includes my fico® credit score. Yup, you get it free each month to help you avoid surprises with your credit. 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The Supreme Court has been caught red handed and by caught red handed i mean caught interpreting the Affordable Care act the way that every single sensible person has been interpreting it since it was first proposed and debated. Why is this important . Well, this week we saw two big federal cases deciding a brand new totally novel challenge to obamacare. The d. C. Circuit court of appeals ruled that the incredibly vital subsidies provided by obamacare, the ones for low and moderate income people applied only to state exchanges run by a state but not to those state exchanges run by the federal government. And that Appeals Court came to this conclusion through, in my humble opinion, a truly tortured reading of the Affordable Care act. But another Appeals Court, Fourth Circuit court of appeals called that out for what i think it is, ridiculous. That court said it was as obvious that subsidies were meant to apply to the exchanges in every state as it could possibly be. Here, so, here we go again. A division among the lower courts and once again a big obamacare case quite likely going to the u. S. Supreme court. Okay. Heres the thing, all right . The very justices on the Supreme Court who arguably are the most interested in killing obamacare, the four dissenters who ruled against it the last time in the individual mandate case, they just casually describe the way the law works in their opinion, and as noted by abby gluck of politico in the dissenting opinion, they wrote the following. Because congress thought some states might decline federal funding for the operation of a Health Benefit exchange, congress provided a backup scheme. If a state declines to participate in the operation of an exchange, the federal government will step in and operate an exchange in that state. Thats not all. They also wrote in the absence of federal subsidies to purchasers, Insurance Companies will have little incentive to sell insurance on the exchanges. That system of incentives collapses if federal subsidies are invalidated. The exchanges would not operate as congress intended, intended, and may not operate at all. See that there . Theyre just describing the way the law works and clearly they think in describing the way the law works that the subsidies apply both in the federal exchanges and the state ones. In other words, it is abundant and clear the affordable caring a was written to provide subsidies to individuals in every state regardless of who was administering those exchanges. Even the four justices who ruled against the individual mandate in the last big case were pretty clear about how the law works. This also comes at a key moment with polling saying most americans saying either themselves or others are better off under the Affordable Care act. More than 10 million adults gained Health Insurance by midyear because the aca. Joining me, annie lowery, online columnist for new york magazine. Annie, its great to have you. You wrote a great piece today about what the logical conclusion would be if, indeed, this challenge based on this i think torture reading of the law were to come to bear. What would happen . So, basically what would happen is the 36 states that are using that federal architecture for the exchanges, the people who have purchased insurance through the exchanges wouldnt lose their insurance coverage, but they would lose subsidies. So their insurance would get way too expensive and, you know, the result would be that the Insurance Market would fray. These people wouldnt be able to afford it. Basically the law starts falling apart. Millions of households that would be affected. Again, thats a big if. If the Supreme Court takes this case and if they make this reading, which i think for the reasons that you laid out really clearly seems unlikely that they would do. Right. But, you know, its a possibility i guess. But the point you make in the piece which was, i think, really important is this is part of a broader trend, a law which was intended to provide Health Insurance for everyone, everywhere, is being kind of attacked in this geographic fashion so we can end up in a position in which its basically only blue states where people are getting the benefits even though its the red states that often have the largest numbers of people that might benefit. Exactly. So, you know, back in that 2012 decision where they upheld the individual mandate, they had this kind of, like, surprise where they said that states could opt out of the Medicaid Expansion. Again, medicaid is for really, really poor people. These are people that are not terribly politically active and were not knowledgeable about the law. So in a lot of big states that could really use the Medicaid Expansion because they have large populations of lower income uninsured adults, so, like, texas, mississippi, south carolina, theyve refused the Medicaid Expansion. So the law, theyre not getting the full benefits of the law but theyre still paying for it. Imagine if the 36 states that on top of that are also using those federal exchanges, if they didnt have those subsidies, what would happen is they would get even less of the benefits of the law even though theyd be paying for it. So youd have a system where in states like new york and california that set up their own exchanges and accepted the Medicaid Expansion, theyre really benefiting and could end up being significantly subsidized by the poor red states where most of the residents who this law was intended to benefit are living. So heres whats interesting about this latest challenge to me. The politics seem very different. Because you now have people whove got the thing, tangibly, really for the First Time Since the law was passed these many years ago. 10 Million People have got it. So anything that were to happen like that, like people 76 increase, would be met with massive, i think, backlash from the publish. I think that thats right. I mean, historically, its very hard for the federal government to take something away. Yeah. Especially from middle class people. Right . They cut welfare benefits, but a lot of the people who were receiving welfare benefits, you know, they werent terribly politically active. There wasnt a ton of backlash to that. Every time theyve even broached the subject of changing, for instance, Social Security perhaps most famously, people freak out. Its really, really unpopular. Thats what republicans have always feared. Annie lowery from new york magazine. What constitutes cruel and unusual punishment in the u. S. In 2014 . Well talk about that, ahead. T. 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Republican senator john mccain weighed in on the botched execution of convicted killer joseph wood in his home state of arizona last night telling politico today, i believe in the Death Penalty for certain crimes but thats an unacceptable way of carrying it out. Lethal injection needs to be, indeed, a lethal injection and not the situation that prevailed. Thats torture. Wood who murdered his exgirlfriend and father was put to death with a combination of experimental drugs. Normally takes around ten minutes for a person to die by lethal injection. Last night it took 1 hour 57 minutes before wood was pronounced dead which was enough time for his lawyers to draw up an emergency legal appeal asking federal and state courts to step in and stop it. Reporters who witnessed the execution said he looked like a fish on the shore gulping for air. Hed open his mouth and see his chest move and it would go down to his stomach. It was a clear gasp. You know, it just sort of looked like a fish opening, closing his mouth. That same reporter, Michael Kiefer of the Arizona Republic said, i made a pencil stroke on a pad of paper every time his mouth opened and ticked off 640 which is not all of them because the doctor aim in at least four times and blocked my view. Lethal injection seems viewed as a more humane ways to do things. What happened in arizona wasnt some oneoff. This was the third botched execution this year. In ohio in january, Dennis Mcguire was put to death by lethal injection with a new and untested combination of drugs. The process was accompanied by movement and gasping, snorting, and choking sounds. Took 26 minutes for him to die. In april in oklahoma, convicted killer Clayton Lockett was given a new three drug lethal injection combination. Three minutes later he began breathing heavily, writhing, clinching his teeth and straining to lift his head off the table. There was the case of Michael Lee Wilson who reportedly said as he was being executed in january, i feel my whole body burning. Has america all of a sudden become sloppy at putting people to death . I dont think thats the case. I what i think is happening is the botched execution is the product of two impulses in the american body politic. Support for the Death Penalty, which hovers around 60 for a person convicted of murder, is a particularly useful for politicians wanting to showing law and order. We, americans, are a humane and nonbarbaric society as enshrined in the eighth amendment. So we need to find a way to kill people that doesnt look barbaric, that makes it look like the person dying at the hands of the state isnt suffering which in turn makes us, the people who are aware of it, feel okay about it all. But the drug states have been using to make killing look more humane have become less available because the Companies Making those drugs have protested their use in execution which leaves states scrambling to use untested drugs and combinations turning lethal injection into essentially medical experimentation which makes the men being put to death guinea pigs. This brings me to judge Alex Kozinski who in writing in favorite of joseph woods execution moving forward outlined a novel solution to prevent legal challenges to lethal injection. He wrote in part using drugs meant for individuals with medical needs to carry out executions is a misguided effort to mask the brutality of executions by making them look serene and peaceful. If some states in the federal government wish to continue carrying out the Death Penalty, they must return to primitive and foolproof methods. Firing squad strikes me as the most foolproof methods. The firing squad strikes me as the most promising. 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This morning the day after joseph wood took nearly two hours to die after being given a lethal injection by the state of arizona, the states largest newspaper, the Arizona Republic published an editorial calling for a moratorium on the Death Penalty arguing by trying to pretend were putting the convicts quietly to sleep, weve fallen into a protocol that assures a lingering horror. If thats not the definition phrase cool and unusual punishment, the words have lost all meaning. Joining me, dahlia lithwick, and austin sarat, author of gruesome spectacles, botched executions and americas Death Penalty. Austin, ill give with you. You wrote a whole book about socalled botched executions. Why are we seeing this happen this year . Well, i think to really understand whats happening this year, you have to put it in a broader context. Botched executions are not new. Whats new is the context in which they are now happening. If you look over the course of the 20th century in the United States, chris, you see that 3 of american executions were botched, and if you just look at lethal injections since its introduction in the late 1970s and early 1980s, 7 of all lethal injections have been botched. So botched executions are part of the american story. Part of the american story about capital punishment. And that storys been propelled by a belief and a faith in scientific progress and the belief we could find a technology of execution that would be safe, reliable, and humane that would resolve the dilemma that youve so nicely talked about before the break that would allow us to execute and also to be in conformity with our own best values. So and i think what were seeing is the wheels are just coming off the machine. Yeah. I mean, dahlia, kozinski, of course, is a very colorful judge in the ninth circuit and i think he was sort of, i think, kind of trolling a little bit with that proposal, but, i mean, it does strike me at this point that a firing squad would be more foolproof than what we are seeing now and would probably live up to the eighth amendment better than the spectacle playing out right now. At least according to the courts. I mean, two things, chris. I actually dont think hes being completely fatuous. I think hes saying, and this is really, you know, after an hour and 57 minutes of watching someone gasp and twitch, that was torture. I dont think john mccain is wrong. But i think the other thing thats sort of attractive about lethal injection is that its not a secretive process. One of the reasons, as austin says, the wheels are coming off, is because in the last few months and years, weve seen state protocols that were once quite open and by the books and understood and coherent become really enshrouded in this black blanket of secrecy, and so we dont know we still dont know where the drugs came from that were used in the wood execution. Theres so much that we dont know, and this is the basis of the lawsuit out of arizona yesterday. So i think the secrecy is the other thing. At least with guns, you know where they come from. Right. Where the bullets come from. And austin, also, the other i guess the question is, is there such thing as a foolproof mechanism . I mean, is the assumption here in what kozinski is proposing, that is airing squad is foolproof, is it exact . Chris, in a way you missed the real point of kozinskis intervention. The significance of it, Alex Kozinski whos a supporter of the Death Penalty and by no means a liberal described execution by lethal injection as brutal. Right. He described execution, itself, as brutal. And thats the kind of talk that usually comes from abolitionists or progressives. To have kozinski say, look, we better face the brutality of capital punishment, thats a moment of great significance. That should not be lost in what followed in his recommendation about the firing squad. Look, there is no foolproof technology for putting people to death. And theres a connection between those two, right . Because what hes saying is you need to face up to the brutality. If you as a society have decided that you are going to engage in a punishment that is brutal, then go look straight into the dark heart of the brutality that it is and dont try to essentially medicate it away by making sure you do it in a, quote, quiet and serene way. Theres a crazy scalia point, he talks about the serenity of quietly falling asleep into death. You know, which gets to the point that theres a denial, i think, about a lot of americans about what exactly were doing when were doing this, dahlia. Well, and its so exacerbated, chris, because we want it to look like its just a dental procedure. You know, this quiet sleep and theres no gurneys and theres white coats. But professional associations wont let anesthesiologists participate. You know, doctors are very reluctant to get involved. You cant get a single anesthesiologist to really tell you what quantities of drugs would really be optimal. So this is on a collision course with actual medical professionals and what that means is that you have people administering these injections, and this was certainly the case with Clayton Lockett who cant even find the vein. Right. So you can say it looks like a root canal but is not being administered by doctors. That quote from scalia is how enviable a quiet death by lethal injection. Austin, historically, i think its interesting to any, we look at iran right now, for instance, and iran hangs people by cranes publicly. Its a gruesome barbaric disgusting practice and think thats the terrible Islamic Republic of iran. Right. How has our stance of what is gruesome and uncivilized and whats perfectly proper evolved over time . Well, again, i think the story of the american Death Penalty is this romance with the idea of technology. Well find a technologically acceptable way that will make sure that when we execute people, what we are doing is always better than what they do. If you look at the development of execution in the United States, over the last 100 years, the story is always the same and the promise of the technology is always the same. The practice lets us down. Always the next one thats going to be the right one then it does. Dahlia lithwick from slate and austin sarat. That all in for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts now. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. In 1934, this man, Joseph Everett thompson was sworn in as the sheriff of davis county in kentucky. Davis county is where owensboro, kentucky, is. To replace him, the county planned to hold an election to pick a new sheriff, but in the meantime, they needed somebody interim. They needed somebody to fill the now suddenly vacant job of the county sheriff when the sheriff died. And a local judge decided that the most expedient thing to do would just to be ask the dead sheriffs widow if she would fill in for him after his death. Her name was florence shoemaker thompson. She was asked if she would fill in and become the sheriff in her husbands absence. She said yes. She was sworn in in daco
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