threat that we have to our democracy. as i saw ali vitali at the start of the show talking about trump out there continuing to agitate and, as you mentioned, all of these states that are building in ways in which they can overturn legitimate election results, we've got a bigger problem. but it has to start with protecting those voting rights. >> norm, you and i were on thursday, and it turned into a debate unexpectedly. i think part of the way we left it is where i would like to pick up with you. i don't want to leave the impression that the way you were defining what the problem is was false. i think you are seeing the problem as it actually is, even though the path forward may seem a little opaque. what would you say to someone that says, ah, okay, fine, this is bad. i'm not a donald trump fan, but the death of american democracy? that sounds a little strong. on what do you base that? how do you substantiate that concern? >> there are two ways in which i would look at it, joshua. the first is that on january 6th when we had this violent assault