youngstown, jd vance got back on stage and started shaking his hands, taking pictures saying aren't we having a great time here tonight? >> all the former president's men. jd vance, herschel walker, adam laxal, it's an odd ball field of maga candidates running this year with our democracy on the line. congressman tim ryan, who walloped the hillbilly elegy hedge fund guy on the debate stage last night, joins me live. >> also tonight, our reedout democracy defending has a warning about the infiltration of election deniers as poll watchers and judges and what needs to be done to fight back. >> plus, new developments in the trump documents case. the doj filed its response to trump's request for the supreme court to intervene. >> we begin tonight with what mitch mcconnell euphemized as candidate quality. just a few months ago, the republican party was crowing about a red wave. today, with a month left, the election really is a jump ball. honestly, though, if you look at the field of republican candidates, it really shouldn't be. and a key reason for that is donald trump. the carnival barker of the maga party, where the price of admission to his personal circus includes heading your extremist freak flag fly with racism, election denialism and fealty to him and only him. those requirements have left trump's party which really is now his party, with the most bizarre and extreme crop of anti-democracy circus performers we have really ever seen. like pennsylvania senate candidate and long time new jersey resident mehmet oz. oz spend the majority of his adult life as oprah's pet celebrity doctor, peddling questionable drugs. oz has spent most of his time trailing his democratic opponent, john fetterman, after complaining about $20 crudites. he flew out to california and attended a fund-raiser held by the in-law of trump's buddy matt gaetz. it was held at a world war ii memorabilia museum. he was standing in front of one of hitler's cars. next up, perpetual candidate and candidate for any office in nevada that is available, adam laxal. he is facing catherine cortez masto, and he joined mr. ozat that california fund-raiser. laxal was born in nevada but spent the majority of his life in washington, d.c. wonder if he roots for the commanders. he also happens to be the grandson of the late nevada senator paul laxalt. he's the biological son of his grandfather's long time senate candidate, pete deminchy. in 2018, members of laxalt's family who lived their entire lives in nevada and never saw him around said he was totally unqualified to run the state, because he has no clue what it means to be a nevadaen. but there's kari lake of arizona. before running for governor, she spent her life reporting the news as a fox affiliate. after voting for president barack obama, she converted to trumpism and believes that katie dobbs should be jailed and trump actually is the rightful president. this weekend, she insisted on vacuuming the maga king's red carpet before he showed up. what a true servant. then there's herschel walker, another celebrity picked for his football prowess. he's most famous for threatening to murder his wife, fabricating lies about his biography and pushing complete bans on abortion while advocating for them with one of his former girlfriends, allegedly. he's getting back-up from rick scott, a medicare fraud veteran who wants to make social security optional, and arkansas senator tom cotton who famously said slavery was a necessary evil. and last but definitely not least, as california venture capitalist and celebrity author senate candidate jd vance, who once called trump maybe america's hitler. vance, who has run a lackluster campaign which includes highlights like claiming women should stay in abusive marriages realized his only hope for political survival is if he kissed trump's ring and something else. >> last night, he faced his democratic opponent, congressman tim ryan, in their first debate. and let's be honest, ryan dog walked the faux populist. >> jd vance raised money for the legal defense fund of the insurrectionists. this is the kind of extremism jd that we wholly reject. >> i have been a pain in the rear end to nancy pelosi. and if chuck schumer is the leader, i will be a pain in the rear end to him, too. i'm for ohio. i don't kiss anyone's ass like him. ohio needs apass kicker, not an ass kisser. you run around with lindsey graham who wants a national abortion ban, you're running around with marjorie taylor greene. this is dangerous group, and we do need to confront it. that's why i'm running to represent the exhausted majority. democrats, republican, and independents. against the extremists. >> while vance was busy kissing up to trump, ryan has been crisscrossing the state selling himself as an average joe willing to work with anyone. >> some people think that they have to agree with their politicians 100% of the time. and i ask these people, are any of you married. we have to stop the stupid fight. >> find some common ground. >> and be americans first. >> now that i can agree with. >> and joining me now is the democratic nominee for u.s. senate from ohio, congressman tim ryan. i'm surprised you're not under arrest for that killing you put on poor jd vance. i actually started to -- you evoked pity at a certain point. i want to ask you about the way you're running. have this theory that 2020 was an exhaustion election. it was interesting to hear you talk about running for the exhausted people of ohio. i think the reason that joe biden won, to be honest with you, is a lot of americans were just tired. they were tired of having to follow the president's every breath, even though every time he burp he's on tv, but they were tired of trump's circus and they wanted to ignore the president sometimes and have a normal life. do you get the sense that oo ohio is in that mode right now? >> there's no question, the exhausted majority, again, it's democrats, republican, and independents who are tired of the fights. tired of the extremism. tired of the insurrection and all of the craziness we have been experiencing in the last six or seven years that made us wade down into our school board meetings that people were burning masks and trying to raise hell at those meetings, so i think people are ready to say okay, like our commercial said that you were just playing, we're not going to agree 10 out of 10, we'll probably agree 6 or 7 out of 10, but that's a great marriage if you're agreeing 6 out of 10. let's figure out how to get along. our kids and grandkids are going to live together, so we need to make sure we give them a country where it's peaceful and you can resolve conflict peacefully and that would be a great service to them. >> you know, ohio is one of those states that democrats used to contend, and then they stopped contending, because they see it as a red state. sxept it has a democratic senator now, sherrod brown is a democratic senator now. have you had a conversation with him about the party's attitude? i have heard maybe the party isn't throwing money at your race the way they're throwing money at some of the other races in the country. is that true, is the dscc funding you to the extent you think they should? >> you know, that's their decision to make. i will tell you mitch mcconnell gave jd vance $40 million and the s.e.c. and senate majority pac are playing in a lot of other places. all i can control is what i can control. i would love for them to, you know, be a part of making the message here a more potent one, but look, we're raising money. we raised $17 million in the last quarter. we have got 350,000 grassroots supporters. i can't control that. i can control the message i have, which is focused on the exhausted majority, economic issues, rebuilding the midclass, talking about the importance of the infrastructure bill, the chips act, the inflation reduction act. we just saw another investment today. honda is coming into ohio with significant hundreds of millions of dollars of an investment around electric vehicles on top of general motors and ford and toledo solar. and for electric vehicles in the old lordstown plant, natural gas in southeast ohio, so we have a lot of good things going on. i want to keep that going and fight for working class people to make sure they get cut on the deal, and why washington, d.c. democrats sometimes have a problem supporting working class candidates like me, i don't know, but all i can do is say to your audience, go to timforo.h.com and send us a few bucks. we're going to win this race. jd vance is an absolute fraud. he's wearing a tin foil hat. he's extreme on every issue and we're 1,000% more ohio than him but we need support from grassroots supporters. >> let me play a bit of an ad, you talking about a charity, this weird charity that jd vance started and you had something to say about it last night. >> you know what i haven't done. i didn't start a fake nonprofit pretending like i was going to help people with addiction, like jd vance did. literally started a nonprofit and didn't spend one nickel on anybody. in fact, he brought in somebody from purdue pharma to be the spokesperson for the nonprofit. the same drug company, big pharma, the big drug company that had all of the pill mills going, got everybody addicted. one million people died, jd. >> i mean, this is a guy who not only did that, but has said that the states that we spend too much federal money on education, that he would like to see that and environmental regulations money cut. this is somebody who -- i am interested in your take on why he is still in the 40s in a state that is so blue collar. >> well, let me say first, joy, that the english language has yet to come up with a word that is precise enough to describe the level of fraudulence of jd vance. we have got some work to do to figure out what that word is. i think a lot of people default to their republican/democrat. i think that's to be expected in a state like this, where republicans have gerrymandered, you know, we keep saying ohio is not a red state. it's a rigged state. the gerrymandering has been going on for a long time. it's cemented the republican brand here in contrast as i have said a million times to a democratic brand that doesn't play very well in ohio. so there are a lot of people that are uncomfortable moving away from that. that's what we're working hard to do. but we are doing it. i think we're getting some help from jd vance. because he was calling trump america's hitler at one point, and then he went through his ass kissing routine and now he's the greatest president ever. so they don't want to vote for him, and they like me, and they know i want to have a responsible and reasonable relationship with republicans. i'm not here to punish anybody, joy. i'm not here to hate anybody. we need more love, more grace, more forgiveness, more reconciliation so we can move out of the age of stupidity into an age of possibility and reformant. that's why we're going to win this race. >> tim ryan, a lot of people think you're running one of the best races in the country. and you're doing it just by being sort of normal. it's odd that that is, like, ahhh, somebody who is not weird. thank you very much, tim ryan. appreciate you. >> joining me is terry set meyer, senior adviser for the lincoln project. scholar at the university of virginia center for politics and former republican communications director on capitol hill. and i know that because i met you, madam, when you were actually like a republican republican, and i don't know if you remember, this was years ago, and that's when i met you, and it has been interesting to watch you with the lincoln project have to contend, you and rick wilson and other folks i have known for a long time when you were republicans, with what's happened to the party. i want to play something for you. you remember ron paul used to run for president like every four years he would run? and he would win this straw poll thing, so the base would enjoy him. but he never had a shot of being president. this is ron paul advocating for letting people drink raw milk and getting rid of fema. here's ron paul. >> so now, with the fda is doing and why they feel so compelled to protect you, they will arrest you if you start drinking raw milk that you happen across a state border. what is so dangerous about you making your own choice about whether or not you can drink raw milk? i think we ought to vote for the right to drink raw milk. >> why should we take money from somebody else who don't get the chance to live on the gulf and make them pay to rebuild my house? it's a moral hazard to say the government is always going to take care of us when we do dumb things. i'm trying to get people to not do dumb things. besides, it's not authorized in the constitution. >> this guy said that -- this guy said -- this is another quote on aids. those who do not commit sodomy, who do not get a blood transfusion or swap needles are virtually assured of not getting aids unless they're deliberately infected by a malicious gay. he said nearly all black men in d.c. are criminal or semi-criminal. his son who made up his own certification to be an eye doctor is now a u.s. senator. and he would be completely viable in today's republican party. what happened? >> yeah. yeah, ron paul was on an island of his own there for many, many years. he was more of a libertarian, but you're correct, he would be opened with welcome arms in today's republican party because they have lost their minds, which is a lot of the reason why i left the party in 2020 after trump decided he was going to deny the election and republican s went along and enabled him in violating the constitution. what has happened is they have recognized now, and it's a much longer conversation about how over the decades the party got here, but leaders in a position to put a stop to donald trump, they decided not to, they decided to kiss ass instead of being ass kickers for the constitution, which is what they think, to steal a phrase from tim ryan, because that's what they thought they could do for raw power. instead, it has undermined democracy and we're in an existential threat to our democracy, and it's fueled by one party. it breaks my heart because it makes me feel like the 27 years i spend there fighting for policies, that all of that was bs for these people because it got thrown right out the window as soon as a demagogue came in that they felt they had to attach, ride the coat tails of in order to maintain political power and nothing else matters. thus here we with candidates running on undemocratic platforms and the republican party is cheerleading them as if they are somehow admirable, qualified people. >> let's really quickly talk about hearsal walker. the lieutenant governor of georgia said the only reason he's competing is he's trump's friend and a celebrity. and they needed a black guy. let's be real. this is their version of identity politics. he now has all of these national republicans parachuting in, tom cotton, who was pro-slavery, slavery wasn't bad, a necessary evil. these guys are flying in to save him, even though according to their ideology, he's a murderer. because he paid for an abortion. >> yeah. >> how does that attract evangelicals' just absolute support? >> right, the fall of evangelicals has been one of the most infuriating hypocritical aspects of this era of trumpism. shame on them. they were supposed to be the moral guardrails. they were out there as the moral majority in the christian coalition in the '90s, going after everything from rap lyrics to family values, and now today, after they got their four-decade wish of overturning roe v. wade, they are -- dana loesch said it out loud, they don't care about the hypocrisy, they don't care if you're a good person, if you're a liar, if you're paying for abortions which is supposed to be absolute apostsy. they don't care as long as they get control of the senate. she said it. and that should expose them for the absolute craven political frauds they are, because that's what they are. and all of these republicans who are standing next to herschel walker should be ashamed of themselves today and i hope democrats continue to use their words against them to force them to be accountable for it because the american people deserve better. they don't deserve hypocrites that are anti-democratic. >> rick scott committed epic medicare fraud, and people are like, we need to solve medicare fraud. anyway, tara, we're not only in agreement that we're on opposite idealogical sides, but our hair is now the same color. look how we evolve, my sister. >> amen. thanks, joy. >> a remind, today is the deadline to register to vote in ohio. you can register in person until 9:00 tonight online. online registration will be open until midnight. early voting in ohio begins tomorrow. today is also the deadline to register in georgia. you have until midnight to register online. early voting in georgia begins next monday. prepare to vote. if you liver in arizona, you have until the end of the day to register to vote, today. for more information in your state, scan the little qr code on your screen or go to nbcnews.com/planyourvote. >> up next, trump's lawyers find themselves in legal peril. bad enough that they usually don't get paid. bad enough they usually don't get paid. now they're in legal trouble, too. we'll be back. into the no-too-distant future of lincoln. ♪ ♪ it's what sanctuary could look like... feel like... sound like... even smell like. more on that soon. ♪ ♪ the best part? the prequel is pretty sweet too. ♪ ♪ if you have this... consider adding this. an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplement plans help by paying some of what medicare doesn't... and let you see any doctor. any specialist. anywhere in the u.s. who accepts medicare patients. so if you have this... consider adding this. call unitedhealthcare today for your free decision guide. ♪ [ sneezing ] are you okay? for your free decision guide. oh, it's just a cold. if you have high blood pressure, a cold is not just a cold. coricidin is the #1 doctor recommended cold and flu brand. specially designed for people with high blood pressure. be there for life's best moments. trust coricidin. in just the past few hours the department of justice filed its response, here it is, to donald trump's hail mary request of the supreme court to intervene in the doj's investigation of the classified documents that he kept at mar-a-lago. the doj asked the supreme court to reject trump's request to allow the special master reviewing documents to have access to those marked as classified. simply put, the doj says that trump's claim has no merit. because trump has no plausible claim to the government's own classified documents. and the fact that trump's legal team cannot show how he would suffer irreparable injury if those documents are withheld from the special master. it's now up to justice clarence thomas to decide whether he alone wants to answer trump's plea or refer it to the full court. thomas was the only supreme court justice to dissent when the court rejected trump's bid to withhold white house documents to the january 6th committee. it comes a day after we learned one of trump's lawyers is not only spoken to federal investigators about the case, but is always naming names, specifically as it relates to her signed letter to the doj in june certifying trump had turned over all classified material in his possession. which of course was not true. new details from "the new york times" today indicate bobb told investigators she was still fresh in her role on trump's team when boris epshteyn called her the night before she signed the document and put her in contact with another one of trump's lawyers, evan corcoran, who not only drafted the letter but pushed her to sign it, something he wasn't willing to do himself. she complained she did not have a full grasp of what was going on around her when she signed the document, according to two people who have heard her account. joining me now is barbara mcquade. i want to start there with christina bobb because if she's handed a document, an attestation saying this is all of the classified documents, all of the documents have been turned in, and it isn't true, and she says boris epshteyn and this other lawyer pushed her to sign it, drafted it and she signed it not really knowing what she was signing, who is in legal trouble here? >> yeah, it's interesting. she also added the words, joy, at the bottom, to the best of my knowledge. she inserted those words. so i think it's irresponsible of a lawyer to sign something like that if she doesn't know whether it's true or not, just based on the say so of someone else. but the reporting is that she met with the justice department. if she was entirely candid with them about it, it seems quite possible that she herself is trying to position herself as a witness as opposed to a defendant, to say look, i signed this. i wrote there i didn't really know whether this was true, and these other guys put me up to it. it's really curious, isn't it, joy, that boris epshteyn and evan corcoran all said, here, we wrote this up, but you sign it. we want you to sign it, and then she did so. so it may be that they're all in trouble, but it seems the strategy that she and her lawyer are pursuing now is to be a witness for the government, to be candid with what her role is and to point the finger at them. now, if they put her up to this knowing it was false, they could have some legal problems of their own. >> had she met boris epshteyn. he couldn't hand me anything i would sign. no offense to him, but this guy is your quarterback of the team. i want to ask you about this. i read this as a lay person, i will be honest, but it reads to me as so straightforward and simple. this is the government, the doj's response to the supreme court saying they should not allow donald trump, his pet lawyer, to force the classified documents into the hands of the special master, despite the fact that the district court said no. i don't understand. one of our producers had this question, i agree with this question. how can -- what would be the purpose on trump's side, pretending that you're trump's lawyer, of forcing it, forcing the special master to have to review these classified documents? when the government has already made it clear, there's no reason for him to review it. trump doesn't own them. why would they be so insistent that the special master must review these documents? >> i think there may be a couple theories here. one is they want to see for themselves how much trouble trump might be in, so they want to see the classified documents. now, at some point if trump had them in his possession, i suppose arguably he knows what's in them, but this is something like now we're at more than 30 boxes or so of documents, so i think they want to see exactly what's there. if the special master gets to see it, then they get to see it because they have to make arguments about what is in and out of the government's purview. i also think that there's also a stall tactic going on here. the longer they can delay this case from being charged, the longer it's tied up in all of this process, they may be able to drag out the inevitable criminal charges and then drag out the day that a trial might be held, because if they can stall out, run out the clock until january of 2025, there could very well be a new occupant of the white house, who could issue pardons. so i think those might be a couple of the reasons they might want to involve the courts in this process. >> let me ask you this question, barbara. if i go in your house and i steal your personal documents, your passport, personal family photos, things that are yours, they're your things, i steal them, have you ever heard of a situation where i can go to a court and demand that i get to see them again? that i want to review them again, i want to look at your photos of your kids, of your mom. i want to see them first before anyone can possibly indict me for theft. i'm now possibly going to be indicted for robbing you, but i want to see your stuff again. have you ever heard of that? >> no, and in fact, the normal process as the government cites in its brief filed today, the normal process is, if charges are filed, and if the government wants to use those documents or whatever it was that was seized from the person's home as evidence, that is ordinarily the normal process and the normal point where you would make some legal argument for suppression of those records. and so what's most absurd here is that as you say, this is essentially stolen property. these aren't trump's own items that could have evidentiary value. these are items he stole from the office, and he wants to see what's there. his time will come, if and when charges are filed. >> yeah, in my analogy, i'm donald trump and you're the federal government. and this judge that donald trump likes so much has made the insane argument that you heard me make and i don't get it as a lay person. thank you so much. i appreciate you helping me sort it out. >> coming up next, sounding the alarm on the wave of election deniers working at poll watchers. stay with us. ♪ ♪ discover sound that can truly move you in the 2022 grand wagoneer. awarded best driver appeal by j.d. power. don't mind me. i'm just the flu. i'm quite harmless, really. and when people ask, “but aren't you linked to dangerous flu complications, like pneumonia, heart attack, and hospitalizations?” i just say, “but, i'm just the flu.” it's him! who? i'm just the flu! fight the flu with sanofi flu vaccines, which help prevent flu in older adults. they've even been shown to provide 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(gentle music) i felt horrible. i felt like it was all my fault, like if i would have never decided to be an elections worker, like, i could have done anything else, but that's what i decided to do, and now people are lying and spreading rumors and lies and attacking my mom. i'm her only child. >> that was shea moss, an election worker in fulton county georgia who along with her mother, ruby freeman, were the subject of the former president's lies. a publicist for kanye west traveled to ruby freeman's home, pressuring her to confess to bogus election fraud claims. it's just one of the many instances of threats and harassment of innocent election workers. reuters reports that enhanced security includes everything from installing panic buttons and hiring extra security guards to holding active shooter and de-escalation training. the justice department has investigated more than 1,000 threats aimed at election workers. last week, a nebraska man was sentenced to 18 months for online threats against colorado's secretary of state, jena griswold. our democracy defender is another colorado election official sounding the alarm about a looming threat. a surge of election deniers infiltrated the ranks of poll watchers and election judges. some have antagonized or threatened election workers, wrongly rejected hundreds of ballots and one man even tried to steal a password to the election system last year. the county clerk, laurie mitchell, told the denver post, every day you wonder what fresh hell is today going to bring? these things are coming out of nowhere and you're just trying to do the best you can, and laurie mitchell joins me now. thank you for being here and thank you for being an election worker. it shouldn't be a job that requires you to have a panic button or, you know, active shooter training, but here we are. there are new laws in colorado, in the denver post, the old paper i used to read back in the day when i lived there, say these laws require new security systems, makes it a crime to threaten election officials or publish information online to harass them. is that enough? >> well, joy, it possibly could be enough, but probably isn't. we still have a whole hotbed of crazy out here in colorado, and we're not quite sure what tactic to take, we're trying to hit it from all side. we're just trying to enhance our security and protect our people. we're trying to get our voters to continue to listen to us as their trusted source of information and not listen to the lies of the grifters. we have enhanced our security training for our election workers, as well as we do have panic buttons. we are doing de-escalation training. we have enhanced our law enforcement guides and all of our other law enforcement partners for elections and make sure that they know what the laws and rules are. and we're just trying to do the best we can so we can defend democracy. >> do you have issues of people saying i want to sign up to be an election worker and then it kind of turns out they don't believe in elections? that they are one of the people who believe in the conspiracy theories and they want to work for elections in order to overturn the election? and what do you do if somebody like that presents themselves? >> in colorado, the way we seat our election judges is through the parties and also unaffiliated independent voters can sign up to be an election judge. and so there's a process where they become actually county workers, and we did have a couple of folks this last during the primary in june who wanted to sign up to be election workers. we had them come to fill out their paperwork for their pay roll and they wouldn't even give us their i.d.s, and they went down to the vote center where they were going to work and were questioning everything when they didn't know what the job was about or where they were going oo be assigned. so obviously, red flags went up, and i called the party chair and said we're replacing them. >> we're seeing things like harassment, you know, lawsuits, where people try to sort of undermine the results of elections. just a full assault on elections. and we're also hearing a lot of anecdotal stories and data that people are quitting. are you guys having trouble keeping people on the job? it's a thankless job, not a high paid job. are you having trouble keeping election workers? >> i have been really lucky here. we have a community that is very civic minded and we actually have more people trying to be poll workers, signing up. we have a wait list now for the first time ever. and we're really proud of that. >> well, i will tell you, i love the poll workers are the core of our democracy, and i always have loved going every time i go to vote and seeing the same ladies there every time. they get to know your name. you know, poll workers are like the best. other than librarians because i love librarians but i love the poll workers. thank you for what you do. thank you for being a democracy defender, lori mitchell. >> up next, the open racism we're seeing from the gop, the republican party today, echoes the hate that italians faced 100 years ago, which ended up being the impetus for a certain holiday. i will explain when we have a little history reidout after this short break. could be a chemo-free combination of two immunotherapies that works differently. it could mean a chance to live longer. opdivo plus yervoy is for adults newly diagnosed with non-small cell lung cancer that has spread, tests positive for pd-l1, and does not have an abnormal egfr or alk gene. together, opdivo plus yervoy helps your immune system launch a response that fights cancer in two different ways. opdivo plus yervoy equals a chance for more time together. more family time. more time to remember. opdivo and yervoy can cause your immune system to harm healthy parts of your body during and after treatment. these problems can be severe and lead to death. see your doctor right away if you have a cough; chest pain; shortness of breath; irregular heartbeat; diarrhea; constipation; severe stomach pain, nausea or vomiting; dizziness; fainting; eye problems; extreme tiredness; changes in appetite, thirst or urine; rash; itching; confusion; memory problems; muscle pain or weakness; joint pain; flushing; or fever. these are not all the possible side effects. problems can occur together and more often when opdivo is used with yervoy. tell your doctor about all medical conditions including immune or nervous system problems, if you've had or plan to have an organ or stem cell transplant, or received chest radiation. here's to a chance to live longer. ask your doctor about the combination of two immunotherapies, opdivo plus yervoy. thank you to all those in our clinical trials. - [female narrator] five billion people lack access to safe surgery. thousands of children are suffering and dying from treatable causes. for 40 years, mercy ships has deployed floating hospitals to provide the free surgeries these children need. join us. together, we can give children the hope and healing they never thought possible. it's a mission powered by love, made possible by you. give today. 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(burke) get a whole lot of something with farmers. kinda creepy. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ so yesterday was columbus day, wepter known these days as indigenous people's day, which actually is more appropriate since indigenous people have been on this continent for millennia, while christopher columbus never set foot in north america. the closest he got to the current u.s. were the virgin islands and puerto rico where he became a brutem, dare i say genocidal governor of the spanish territories. over the weekend i got to wondering why do americans celebrate columbus day in the first place, since he no more discovered america than i discovered these tv cameras that were sitting here when can got to the studio tonight. like far too much in american history, it began with a lynching. which was the subject of a fascinating "new york times" magazine piece back in 2019 by brent staples. the piece points out in the oerm conception of the united states, congress envisioned a white protestant and culturally homogeneous america when it declared only free white persons who have or shall migrate into the united states were eligible to become naturalized citizens. that vision didn't include the indigenous original residents of the continent or the africans that these europeans carted over here in cattle ships as slaves. it didn't include southern europeans like italians and sicilians who because their complexions were darker and they tended to live and work with and near african americans including working in the fields of southern sugar plantations and because they sometimes intermarried with african americans they were often demonized as uncivilized and racially inferior people, too obviously african to be part of europe and racially suspect. they were sometimes shut out of schools, movie houses and labor unions or consigned to church pews set aside for black people. described in the press as swarthy, derided in the streets with epithreats like dego and guinea, spelled like the african country. which all kind of sounds like the themes of a tommy tuberville rally, except the targets aren't black. italians were also after black americans the second most likely group in america to be lynched. but unlike black americans who fought for more than a century to get an anti-lynching law passed by congress but didn't get one until this past march when 11 italian immigrants were lynched by a frenzied mob in new orleans in 18 nigh after being acquitted or mistried in the murder of a new orleans police chief, a lynching that "the new york times" celebrated, by the way, and prompted a diplomatic blow up that brought italy and the united states to the brink of war. the italian government demanded federal action, and president benjamin harrison responded with a proclamation in 1892 announcing a one time christopher columbus day celebration of italian heritage which in 1971 became an annual federal holiday. a celebration that helped americans to think of italians not as black adjacent criminal element that came to take white americans' jobs, but rather as white, and acceptable. and columbus day isn't the only history thing that we tend not to learn the true origins of in school, even before republicans started banning books. when we come back, what americans also fail to recognize about our relationship to europe. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools, and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities. while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. if you have this... consider adding this. an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplement plans help by paying some of what medicare doesn't... and let you see any doctor. any specialist. anywhere in the u.s. who accepts medicare patients. so if you have this... consider adding this. call unitedhealthcare today for your free decision guide. ♪ before we begin, i'd like to thank our sponsor, liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. and by switching, you could even save $652. thank you, liberty mutual. now, contestants ready? go! why? why? only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ one thing that republicans and talk to anyone in san francisco and they'll tell you now is not the time to make our city even more expensive by raising taxes. san francisco has one of the largest city budgets in america. yet when it comes to homelessness and public safety, we're not getting results. what we really need are better policies, more accountability, and safer neighborhoods. vote no on propositions m and o. the last thing we need are higher taxes, especially right now. now is not the time to raise taxes in san francisco. vote no on m and o. democrats having comet, it ain't much, is that they're all trying to basically be more like europe. recently, we've seen leaders on the right dipped a little tough season for european fascism, embracing countries like hungary's and celebrating the -- i tell you prime minister -- many are either looking at social -- as a model. we like to look to europe as if there are cooler, older sibling. there were like distant caustic -- cousins. -- if you look at our country's history, geography, and even emirates, the united states has much more in common with south american in europe. samuel goldman joins me now. he's the associate professor at george washington university. i'm so excited that i found your article through the great adam surrendered -- he turned me onto it. it encapsulates something that's not about a lot. americans thomas up as a little europe, but we're much more of a almost central or south american country. more in common with south and central america. can you believe -- explain that thesis a little bit? >> i think rather than thinking of the united states as denmark that failed. we might think of ourselves as brazil that works. since we have a similar history including histories of colonization, migration and enslavement. and we really developed as a new society in a new place. rather than a more consistent, stable, and homogenous one. >> the fastening thing about it is, on the right, you see people like steve bannon running around, trying to get involved in your fascism. i mention on the left, you see the look into the scandinavia as a model. europe has this ancient, old, old history. which they recognize. they don't hear the building down. they have. they were the colonizer. we were one of the big slave plantations. right? giant slave plantation, just like the caribbean, south america, like you said, like brazil. why don't americans relate more to the americas, do you think? why is there a yearning to be a part of europe -- >> americans have, going back to the 18th century, and inferiority complex about people we felt were our older brothers or parents. and that has encouraged americans to try to imitate europe. or try to adopt european manners. but at the same, time there's a tradition of americans who have reveled in american opportunity and american culture. and have tried to develop a different way of being in a different way of living to european models. >> and i feel like sometimes the resistance is a lot of the things that make america america have a lot to do, to be honest, with slavery, to be blunt. the most american music is jazz, which is created by african americans. and promoted and pushed and participated and by jewish americans, largely. you have these ethnic identities that make our food our food. the things about us are not things about europe. there are things, generally things we don't like to deal with. what do you make of this resistance to dealing with history? and getting worse. >> history, it can be uncomfortable. and certainly there are -- american history that people don't like talking about. but i think we also have to recognize and celebrate the benefits that it has brought to us, including cultural benefits in our music, in our food, in our film, and other popular culture, that really are the things that people around the world recognized as distinctively american. >> you know what's ironic about it? -- reading your piece struck me, the irony. a lot of people in europe, they want nothing else to come over here. they're, like no, we want to be a part of this new vote culture that america is. but i also worry that we are ignoring the problems of countries like brazil. which to me, reflect a lot of what we might be facing. we are headed more in the direction of the brazil model, in terms of where our democracy unfortunate looks like it's heading, do you agree with that? then we are anything like britain and france. >> there are serious risks. and as i say in the piece, i don't think it's fair to single out brazil. because a lot of the same tendencies can be seen in many other places, including -- political polarization. a breakdown of state capacity, and other problems. but i don't think looking to european models is going to provide the answers for us. whether they're at the scandinavian model is favored on the left, or the central and eastern european models that have become popular on the right. >> do you have a theory as to why canada has somehow not caught these afflictions of sort of, internal clothing that we see here? or have they? and mo just not noticing it? >> i think canada has many of the same problems and tension that we face. but we don't notice because we don't pay a lot of attention to canada. one difference is that they share a border with the united states, rather than with central and south america. and that has prevented a sense of chaos that i think really makes our immigration discussion as polarized and passion as it is. >> this is fastening. thank you so, much samuel goldman. i hope you'll come back. thank, you i really appreciate the chance to talk to tonight. that's tonight's read out. don't miss alex wagner tonight at 9 pm. she's gonna be joined by former d.c. police officer michael fanone, injured in the january 6th attack on the capitol. plus, rachel maddow joins alex on her new podcast, ultra. that is our. some but first, you get chris hayes. and he starts right now. t chri hayes. and he starts right now.