institutions that are trying to hold him accountable. the courts, that's just the very electoral process itself, people in congress who speak out against him, all of those institutions. so now, to follow him in the way you're talking about, you also have to be against these institutions. but what i'm really afraid of is that it goes beyond trump's core that you were talking about. there are people who are republicans who say they don't want to vote for trump, who say they think all of these trials are nonsense, that they're politically motivated. >> they're just trying to take him out. >> i'm worried there might be independents that feel that way too. he's flooding the zone so much with nonsense and misinformation that it's very difficult for people, if you're not an attorney and you're not following everything very closely, to understand what's going on and that can seem appealing to people. and if the election is close, that's all it's going to need in order for him to be successful. >> to what extent is that happening? >> a great deal. what you're seeing in the data

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