that he has defamed her after that verdict came in earlier. i wanted to talk about a statistic that i found, because i know you also traffic in evidence and facts as i do, as a trial lawyer. nbc news analyzed more than 40 -- trumpison repulsion to social and found that he often uses his platform as a megaphone to attack people and agencies involved in his numerous legal cases. you and i have practiced law for a long time, would you agree that there has been a total, complete elimination of norms when it comes to legal norms when it's come to not only how a party like donald trump can conduct himself, either in a criminal or civil case, and his lawyers ability to conduct themselves in those types of cases? >> well, there has been an anti-democratic tendency, and i don't mean that in terms of democrats and republicans, who are just anti-democratic. in terms of the me india being used to try and subvert democracy. so yes, i think these are