In the house to once again under cut the American People. This is a time for solutions and they need to be based upon fairness for all. Somebody in the House Republican caucus has to grab the wheel and hit the brakes. There are two deals circulating, first the senate, to reopen the government through january 15th, the exact date the next round of sequester cuts kicks in. Extend the debt ceiling until february 7th and create a budget negotiation framework by mid december. Obama care could be involved with a delay to the reinsurance fees employers pay and efforts to strengthen laws if your income level qualifies you for a subsidy. Then theres the house gop plan, the same dates on the debt ceiling and short term budget but would stop future efforts by the treasury to extend the debt limit. House republicans want a twoyear delay to the medical device tax and to eliminate all obama care protections for labor unions and subsidies for elected officials in washington. No matter which door we choose, looks like well be back in needless crisis plan by the new year. We start with Peter Alexander at the white house and luke russert on the hill. They are about to bring the House Democratic leaders into the oval office. What do you think the message will be . Reporter i hope you give me points for the cliches lets see how many i can hit. Working they are on the same page that their ducks are in the row and another one, that they are trying to shore up support. Thats a very they could walk it back, its unlikely. Its all about lining it up. This is all about maintaining that sort of unified efforts the democrats have had throughout the shutdown and debt ceiling crisis. Obviously the republicans have struggled with that internal battle between the tea party bloc and more moderate republicans. This is what the white house is hoping to make sure that whenever anything does come out of the senator potentially out of the house later that everybody as we noted on the same page with that. Were heading toward this deadline. In fact jay carney during the press briefing said we have already passed the deadline in terms of uncertainty saying the time is of the essence. Im speaking to an economist a short time ago who put this in good terms as people try to get a better grasp of the date. Kind of like driving a car on empty into the desert where you pass the last gas station. Your car is not going to explode immediately. But you dont know when the next gas station may exist and wherever youre going isnt a very good thing. Ill turn this car right around. Ill turn this car right around. I counted eight, peter. Lets see if luke can do better. We did hear a lot from House Republicans on fairness for all. Wouldnt it be easier if the bill originates in the house . Reporter its easier in it originates in the house because then it stops one of the parliamentary procedures that ted cruz could use to delay it. Its a good vehicle. Lets take a step back and tell you where we are today. So the senate deal that we had been talking about between mcconnell, which has never filed, details were leaked out, that was overwhelmingly rejected by the house gop in their conference. One member said to me it was a ka ka sandwich, you know the real terminology there. After that happened and forward their own bill, which was also dismissed because real ultraconservatives within the house gop conference did not december lidislike the fact it took away the employer payins and subsidies for president and vmt and cabinet, they wanted it to extend to staff. After that meeting, boehner had to go out and say, we dont know what were going to do precisely, we have to put something on the floor tonight. We dont know what its going to look like. They are behind closed doors right now trying to make this bill more conservative to try to attract the amount of republicans they would need to get out of the house. While thats happening, Mitch Mcconnell has said to harry reid, were not going to negotiate, i want to see whats coming out of the house of representatives. What boehner has done in the house gop conference has done, delayed the talks that were seemingly going very well between reid and mcconnell to see what the house can produce. From conversations ive had with members, its really, real tough sledding to use a cliche for them to get to 218 on this bill, whatever it might look like. The more conservative it gets, the more it will be dismissed by reid. On your point, it makes it easier in the sense that boehner and the house gop can pass this bill over to the senate, reid in theory could amend it, striking out things he doesnt like and keeping things they could agree on, on which there is some in there and move it forward. As we get towards the october 17th deadline, this creates a huge issue if the markets react negativively and on top of that, there are folks in the house gop that dont think october 17th is that bad. If the markets react negativively, theyll yank this and pass something out really quickly. If the markets are kind of like, we think youre going to do something, then youll see this battle gone on through thursday and its anyones idea as to how this ends up, guys. Theres a lot that i dont understand about whats going on in the Republican Caucus right now, but the session with stripping their own staffers of health care is particularly bizarre to me. People who make 29,000 a year answering phones and for whatever reason people that work for them. Political pawns, thats what it is. They are political pawns now. On the step of a default and government being shut down for over two weeks. Only in america, folks. Peter and luke, thank you both. I want to bring in howard fineman. I would love for you to weigh in on the reporting weve heard from luke. It sounds like the senate deal is not at all acceptable to the House Republicans, even the plan from the House Republicans is not acceptable to the far reaches of the House Republicans. How do you see this all coming together . Well, actually they are not very far apart. They are agonizingly close. But the problem is, the sort of psychological dynamics almost of this. Just as nothing that barack obama, the president of the United States would propose could possibly be acceptable to the Tea Party Wing in the house, so too anything that the senate comes up with, even including anything the senate comes up where Mitch Mcconnell is in concert with harry reid. That by definition is unacceptable to House Republicans, many of them. What they are looking for now and trying to throw the Staff Members under the bus and labor Union Language and language about you cant try any tricks at the Treasury Department in the future, all of that stuff is designed to prevent them agreeing when in fact the two sides in many respects are very close. The republicans basically the tea party has already lost essentially on obama care. The whole game here was to try to seriously delay or defund obama care. It was a wrong headed and disastrous strategy on their part. Theyve lost that. So they are still looking and still down on basement meeting in the basement trying to figure some way to reject whatever comes out of the senate. That is sort of the dangerous and unfortunate psychology were in the middle of here. Howard, you mentioned throwing staffers under the bus. I hope they dont get hurt in that bus clash because they would need health care. I wanted to try to add to the sum total of cliches. You did. We bring it hard with cliches, you know that about that. I want to ask beyond the details of these bills that we are looking at closely as you get down to the wire, if you take a step back and you put aside the fact that in my opinion theres been an unethical type of government leadership here from some members of the house, if they do get a deal, that tweaks federal law and only wounds the debt ceiling a couple of months away, doesnt that risk rewarding blackmail and at a certain point rewarding irresponsible behavior is irresponsible behavior . Everybody keeps talking about this as though it were a lesson in kind garten or parenting. I agree with that theory up to a point. But when does it become a victory that you drive the republicans approval numbers down to the Single Digits and at the same time you have to witness a default of the u. S. Government and a potential worldwide economic crisis . I mean i dont know what lessons the republicans are going to learn. From what i can tell, the republicans have already the tea party has already decided and in many ways our government here in washington has already become a series of socalled manufactured crises. I dont see that changing. I think this is the new normal. This is the cliche alert, its i think its the way things are going to operate now. And i know were over at the house, i heard them say, were going to break their will, meaning the republicans, the break the will of the tea party. They are not going to break the will of the tea party. The tea party believes in rejecting and gumming up the works as much as possible. Thats part of their whole ethic. Rather than look at this as some sort of teaching moment, its time to look at it as a moment to get a deal. Its frightening. Thats right, that they have shut the government down. They have very little to show for it. Certainly nothing substantive. Nothing substantive to take home and say look what we got for shutting the government down. But their folks are happy with what they have done and want them to go further. All of these talk about gop numbers and sinking super low, their folks are happy with what theyve done. Most of these folks who oppose this led this thing will return to congress after their next election. So it makes me say they are going to do this again. As you talk about, this is the new normal. This era of brinksmanship. How do we get beyond this into something more substantive, governing that is worth while . The tea party can have their opposition, but this way of doing it is completely ineffective, not just for america but the entire globe. Right and especially as you were pointing out, even if they reach an agreement now, this is going to happen again right after the new year. I think part of the impetus is that the Business Community which doesnt have the effect it had, but common sense says you dont want this situation going on during the holiday season. You dont want it going on entering thanksgiving and christmas when many businesses make a lot of money for the whole year. Were going to kind of put it on hold until after the first of the year. Toure, i dont know the answer to your question. Ive been thinking about it a lot and writing about it a fair amount at the huffington post. I think the nature of our society has become more confrontational and dramatic and thats where we are. I dont know if these socalled regular order of the congress will ever return. I just dont know how. I wish i had an answer for you. Its so sad for the upcoming generation. But howard, i find harry reid and Mitch Mcconnells relationship pretty fascinating. Here they are yesterday complimenting each other. Lets listen. Im very optimistic we will reach an agreement thats reasonable in nature this week. I share his optimism that were going to get a result that will be acceptable to both sides. As we know, at any sort of crisis situation, when every other option has fallen to pieces, unlikely duos come together and find Common Ground in order to fix things. We saw that with president obama and Chris Christie after sandy hit much to the chagrin of many rpz. Now were seeing this with reid and mcconnell. Despite what many described as a bitter and distant relationship, i want your thoughts on the relationship and do you think it will be up to these two in terms of coming down with what can pull us out of this mess . Abby, its all well and good to see harry reid and Mitch Mcconnell as much as they dislike each other to work out a deal in the senate. That doesnt count in the house. As a matter of fact, every time the Tea Party People see Mitch Mcconnell going into a room with harry reid, it stiffens the tea partys resolve to oppose it. Dont forget Mitch Mcconnell has a Tea Party Challenger down in kentucky. Dont forget ted cruz who doesnt view himself as bound by one chamber of the congress, let alone the whole country, is busy making trouble with the House Republicans, meeting with them in a restaurant telling them to resist. And thats the situation were in right now. And we dont have much time to do much about it. Not a lot of optimism. Depressed me thoroughly, howard because youre exactly right. Thank you so much for a great analysis. Dems are continuing to arrive at the white house for the meeting with the president. You got to admit they have looked pretty united through this whole thing. Republicans on the other hand, thats another story. Well spin as the cycle rolls on. Hit me with your best shot in the spin, apparently the republicans best shot wasnt good enough to take down obama care. Now with nearly 3 4 of americans disapproving of the way the gop is handling the debt fight, you have to wonder, when do they throw in the towel . And when they do and the deal is settled between senate leaders, will the speaker of the house be able to sell it to the rauk us caucus . He might not even get the chance because senator ted cruz let it slip hes still debating an attempt to delay any such deal. Who exactly is he debating with . Probably nobody but that never stopped him before. The focus has shifted almost fully to the debt limit. Instead of the issue republicans started this entire thing over, obama care. Let me ask you a question and you can be honest and frank with me. How many of you are only here because you had some trouble signing up for obama care and instead you got tickets to the show . How many of you see for republicans that should be the headline, the obama carrollout has been a mess. The numbers are shockingly low and the white house doesnt have a solution at this point. Instead all were talking about is the craziness of tea party republicans. This is a real blown opportunity and i would argue they deserve every bit of backlash. All they had to do is nothing at all for the American People to see the glitchy, problematic rollout of obama care so far. I tried to put myself in speaker boehners shoes to be honest, i would rather walk over my feet every day walking home from work to have that happen, to be in his position. But if i were him i would tell my caucus its in your best interest to end the Government Shutdown as soon as possible so the headlines will shift from the gop holding the government hostage to obama care is a complete disaster. I dont even have to tell you guys, 5,000 enroll ees in 36 states are using the federal exchange program. Yet were barely talking about this because its been completely overshadowed by the narrative of the shutdown. It reminds me of one of my favorite movies, how to lose a guy in ten days, she does everything she possibly can love that movie. So charming. She is winning. She is good in that one. The title i would give it, how to lose all credibility and embarrass the party in 21 takes. Its been 21 days when cruz had his marathon speech against obama care. All of this nonsense is overshad lowing. In the end they want absolutely nothing and shoot themselves in the foot. The reason why boehner cant easily advocate, the reason why it doesnt completely ruin the Republican Party, they are not doing this alone. Theyve been demagoguing against obama care for three solid years and they cant just step aside at the last second and then let obama care fall on its own face. Even still, even now, the folks at home are calling and saying, this is what we want, good job. Good further. Dont give up. This is not far enough for them. So as long as you have that sort of alternate universe for folks getting fake news and pushing lawmakers to do things and giving ted cruz their straw poll by a large margin, theres another alternate universe that looks at this in an entirely different way. I think we have to stopped deluding ourselves to think we with reason or rationalize you mean me or members of everybody in the country needs to give up on these folks. They do not respond to normal logic. They were sent there to be come kaz zis, no poll number is going to change that. From the beginning, this has been within John Boehners control, to short circuit the xris sis, i hear this thing he cant pass anything with democratic support then hes afraid of losing his speakers gavel. First of all, i dont believe that. Second of all, heres an idea. Ness this is kinds of outside of historic numbers, theres no reason democrats cannot pledge support to john boehner for speaker if republicans keep control of the house in 2014. If you save the country and dont allow us to default, we will support over whatever tea party idiot runs against you for speaker if thats really the problem for them, lets short circuit it. Thats a novel idea. People need to understand this is not just a Government Shutdown, it is a democracy shutdown. You tune in now as krystal just i will lus dated, there are votes on the house floor. Theres a majority in both houses of congress to avoid the selfinflicted political default. The only reason were not doing it because the house does not function as a democracy. A lot of people around the country are tuning into it. The other number i want to leave people with, is 66. Thats the number of republicans quh who opposed the last debt ceiling hike. Theres 66 republicans who are already lost, they voted against this last time even when they got a huge compromise offer from the president , that was the time he said im not doing that again, not negotiating with you with an economic gun to my head. Some of these people are gone. When we have this final vote, a bunch of them arent going to be with you. Wha