their leadership to threaten a government shutdown and potentially threaten to not raise the debt ceiling if they can't shut off the affordable care act also known as obama care. they are actually willing to plunge america into default if we can't de-fund the affordable care act. >> house republicans were at the wheel this morning when they passed a short term bill to fund the government and avoid a shutdown on october 1st but it was also another chance to him the brakes on obama care. >> nice. >> why does it feel we're driving in circles? >> because we are. >> this place is a mess. let's get our house in order. what is brought to the floor today is without a doubt -- without a doubt a measure designed to shut down government. >> at a time when the economy is barely eking along, wages are aren't increasing, new jobs aren't available and what are we doing? we're putting more costs and more inconvenience on the american people? and so our message to the united states senate is real simple, the american people don't want the government shutdown and they don't want obama care. [ applause ] >> let's broaden this out to planes and trains and automobiles theme because kristen welker is flying with the president. what's going on? >> well, president obama just wrapped up his remarks here in kansas city, missouri. set against the back drop of this ford plant which he has argued has come roaring back since the recession. this is one of a series of speeches he's given this week to tout the progress that has been made since the economy collapsed five years ago. but of course, part of his main message was aimed squarely at republicans and said to congress, do your job. this after the house earlier today passed that temporary spending measure which you mess mention which would fund the government temporarily but defund the president's health care bill. president obama with very strong words. i anticipate we'll continue to hear those words and likely hear about this during his weekly address released tomorrow. and of course the republicans right now sharply divided over how to proceed. you have more conservative republicans like peter king of new york calling members of his party come kaz zees and the bill has no chance of passing through the senate. so the bottom line is, a government shut down would means thousands of workers furloughed and national parks and monuments shut down immediately. essential personnel would stay on the job. if congress doesn't get its act together, it seems that scenario is looking more and more like a real possibility. i can tell you, tour'e, we were talking to folks who came to hear the president speak. they are infuriated with washington and time for washington to do their job and get this budget passed. back to you guys. >> kristen welker with the president in kansas city where the royals are do better than my yankees which is also infuriating. let's talk to molly ball who won quiz masters 2,000. let's talk about this obama care shutdown threat because it is just a threat. people are telling me it may not actually happen but the threat will go right up to the brink. karl rove wrote about it in "the wall street journal", it is praise worthy but any strat by to repeal delay or replace the law must have a credible chance of succeeding the de-funding strategy does not. it is an ill conceived tactic and republicans should reject it. i do understand the theater is valuable in gaining media and fundraising and my side of the aisle, that guy from the god father, like let them lose their souls but we have a world where there are two parties that both function as adults. why are they having this bizarre strategy? >> i think you give them too much credit to call them a strategy. this is completely disorganized from the republican side. they do not for lack of a better word know what they are doing. we've seen this degenerate into a complete circular firing squad. democrats weren't doing so hot before this came along but now they get to sit back and watch and make the popcorn as republicans evolve into this squabbling. now we have the house republicans versus the senate republicans. ted cruz had been out there for weeks egging on the house republicans saying, come on, no more showboats, we've got to de-fund obama care. the house said, okay, we did it now it's in your ball -- the ball is in your court and it's up to the senate. and ted cruz says we don't have the votes. the house republicans are awfully annoyed with ted cruz, one of them calling him a fraud. it's more republican on republican bickering. >> there's a piece of this i don't understand. because really actually john boehner could bring a continuing resolution to the floor of the house right now that would pass with democratic support in the house and would pass in the senate. and there are a range of issues where we could actually make progress if he was willing to abandon the hastert rule. it is not an actual rule. it's this thing where speakers don't like to bring anything to the floor that's not going to pass with the majority of the majority support. what it ends up functioning as is a filibuster in the house, giving power to 26% of the house which seems ridiculous to me. why doesn't john boehner whose speakership may be in danger anyway going into 2014, not necessarily because democrats take over but a threat from his own caucus, why accidedoesn't h decide to do the right thing for his party and country and work with nancy pelosi and the democrats to avoid a government shut down right now? >> i wouldn't be surprised if that's the way it ends. i think you raise an interesting point, beyond this whole -- the focus of course has been on the controversy over de-funding obama care. but beyond that, there is not agreement on what the spending levels in this continuing resolution should be. and the previous strategy that the house republicans particularly eric cantor had was to use the leverage to pass a cr that kept funding at sequestering levels. democrats weren't going to be happy but might have had to agree with it because they couldn't get a better deal. now the question is, what will democrats agree to in terms of spending levels. that may be something that the senate determines as the senate passes something that does include a cr. >> and nonetheless, speaker boehner is fired up speaking that the vote was a vote for common sense and most are saying, this is just a complete waste of time in all reality. next week you could have the 46 gop senators vote not to fund obama care and it would still pass. the question now becomes, molly, how will this play out in the house? we know it's not going to make it through the senate. how do you expect this fight to play out? >> i'm one of the many people in washington who do not own a crystal ball. don't like predictions, i don't know if john boehner knows how this ends. the best guess is we don't get a shutdown and there is a deal, something happens to resolve this standoff. right now it's going to depend on what the senate does. but you do have some republicans, some on the right mostly activists, not actually members of congress, who are cheering for a shutdown and ted cruz has been making the case that the shutdown was not a political disaster for the republicans back in '95 and '96 under newt gingrich. so he wasn't here in washington at the time, i wasn't either. i went back and did reporting and talked to people there at the time and said are we remembering this wrong, that this was a disaster for the republicans? was this actually not such a bad thing? they said literally, oh, god no. it was terrible. we don't ever want to do that again. it was not a good thing for republicans. bill clinton was subsequently re-elected in a landslide after having gotten iz butt recently kicked by the gingrich revolution. republicans who think this is a winner for them are kidding themselves. >> you mentioned the spending levels. some democrats like steny hoyer have said the entire budget debate should be a chance to unwind some of these damaging sequester cuts. but you don't see the president or other democrats using this as an opportunity, which seems like at a minimum bad negotiation because you have cuts versus cuts versus cuts. also, seems to undermine a core democratic principle around for years, you want to spends to grow the economy and take care of our citizens. >> well, unfortunately the fact that we are governing sort of from crisis to crisis and that nobody is passing a budget and the house and senate couldn't even agree to go to conference on a real budget, means that we're not going to have the broader debate about the big picture budget issues. president obama proposed budgets and republicans proposed budgets that do contain a larger vision for how they feel the government should be structure and money should be spent. but when we're in this constantly panicked situation, passing crs that last a few months at the most, we're not going to have the broader discussion about where spending could be done more smartly. >> it's been a rough month but a far worse one for republicans. on balance it's been a good month for the president. molly, let's let you and the audience know why you're here in addition to your always brilliant analysis, it began when steve told us this. >> i understand you're doing something this weekend involving a '70s game show? >> yes, you're confused if you're angry or indifferent, this week we'll put it in classic 70s game show form, the loud plaid jacket, great cheesy music. wait until you hear the voiceover. >> plaid jacket and matching tie, he delivered and this is how the quiz show ended. >> for 400 points, tell me within two, the exact number of these votes that republicans have held? >> molly. >> i believe it is 41. >> 41 she says. can we accept that? we can accept that. molly ball has dethroned the quiz master. congratulations to you. >> molly, little did you know by winning the quiz show and taunting the former winner, it gave you an automatic booking on "the cycle." >> lucky me. i haven't had so much fun since the last time i went to the dentist. >> up against the clock at 9:00 eastern and you might see the winner or one of the losers, perry bacon jr., on the cycle. this week's contestants josh barrel and he have ven mcmorrison and someone named krystal ball. >> i think this could be the ends of my career. it's been a pleasure being on "the cycle." i appreciate you listening to our views every day. >> if you win or lose you could be here next friday steve is unveiling his quiz show prize package. can't wait to see what it is. we'll be back with more right after this. this man is about to be the millionth customer. would you mind if i go ahead of you? 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[ male announcer ] helping you -- now that's what's important to us. back now and seven months into his papacy, pope francis is adored by the faithful and unfaithful alike. he's also making headlines for his relatively aggressive views on abortion and women's role in the church. "america" magazine, the pope addresses why the church needs to change. we have to find a new balance. otherwise, even the moral ed fis of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards losing the freshness and fragrans of the gospel. a recent pugh poll shows 80% of catholics view the pope favorably. it's so encouraging to seize these remarks and just to watch the way that this pope lives his life is example to catholic and noncatholics alike. i'm not catholic although my mother is. there was a great quote for him on the role of women in the church. he says the woman is essential for church, mary, a woman, is more important than the bishops, we must therefore investigate further the role of women in the church. encouraging stuff there. it seems with his change in tone and emphasis in his inclusiveness, the republican party could learn a lot from the way he is handling himself as pope. >> there are definitely members of the party that could learn something but i think this is a message that every person should be reminded of and pope francis has an incredible ability to make people feel included without changing the doctrine and policies of the church. this interview was another example of him viewing people from the eyes much jesus. it's a simple message, stop judging people and let's start loving people. this is something he said that hit home for me, a person once asked me in a provocative manner if i approved of homosexuality, i replied, when god looks at a gay person, does he look with love or reject and condemn this person? we should always consider the person. i love that. we must always consider the person. that is his focus to really push this new balance as he talks about to allow people to feel included and feel everyone should -- >> one of the things not get being enough kred out of this interviews, one of his favorite movies is la strada, a picture that won an oscar for foreign language film. it's about a strong man, anthony quinn, who buys an assistant, a young girl and they go through italy in search of answers about what life is all about. what this tells me ultimately is that this is a more worldly pope than anyone we've ever had before. that's why he's willing to do things like suggest perhaps we should have a church that doesn't try to control people's lives but let's them control their own lives. >> yeah, i look at it differently than both of you. i don't think he was actually saying let's love people who happen to be gay and change sort of our focus on what their life choices are. the church is very strict about those rules. what i heard was an actual return to more classical doctrine saying, let's be equal and fair and mindsful about what it means to be sinners. in the very beginning of this discussion, i am a sinner and we know there's a lot of church teaching in that realm. and the problem i think goes deeper and something people have a hard time talking about, and maybe because i'm not catholic, i have less of those concerns, but it's home phobia, it's homophobia in a conservative strain of world religions. islam and judaism as well. that that led to a double standard whereby the quote, sin, a of gay lifestyle has been treated in departure as if it were a greater sin than greed or infidelity or other sins people committee. what i heard that was interesting, someone from the outside because i'm not at all a part of this religion or even claiming to be deeply knowledgeable about it. but seeing this person who as i understand it has a connection to god and the teaching, right, who is holy, saying, let's return to an equal treatment of all sins and love the sinner and get away from the word -- the wordy think is it there is homophobia. >> that was my point of him trying to encourage the people to see the church threw jesus' eyes. let's not make it an issue, we should accept everyone and not focus on these things, that's what i took. >> as ari is pointing out, he's not going the extra step of saying this is not a sin. he's just saying, let's not put this particular what he calls a sin above all others, which is a step forward but not as far as we would want to see him go but it is a step forward and makes a lot of difference for people around the world. up next, world leaders, including president obama will gather next week in our fair city of new york for the u.n. general assembly and tops on the agenda, how to deal with syria. you heard secretary kerry's call to action on our show yesterday afternoon. a historian says we need to look no further than the cold war to see why intervention is a mistake. much more to come on this september 20th. the timing, the actions, the reactions. everything has to synch up. my expenses are no different. receiptmatch on the business gold rewards card synchronizes your business expenses. just shoot your business card receipts and they're automatically matched up with the charges on your online statement. i'm john kaplan, and i'm a member of a synchronized world. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. more is better. that's why we designed the all-new nissan versa note, with more technology, to get you into, and out of, tight spots. and more space so that you always have your favorite stuff. and just for good measure, an incredibly efficient 40 mpg highway. so that when you're doing more, you're spending less. the all-new nissan versa note. your door to more. ♪ before mike could see his banking and investing accounts on one page... before he could easily transfer funds between the two in real time... before he could even think about planning for his daughters' future... mike opened a merrill edge investment account and linked it to his bank of america bank account to help free up plenty of time for the here and now. that's the wonder of streamlined connections. that's merrill edge and bank of america. thank you. thank you. i got this. no, i'll get it! no, let me get this. seriously. hey, let me get it. ah, uh. i don't want you to pay for this. it's not happening, honey. let her get it. she got her safe driving bonus check from allstate last week. and it's her treat. what about a tip? 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[ female announcer ] switch today and get two safe driving bonus checks a year for driving safely. only from allstate. call an allstate agent and get a quote now. just another way allstate is changing car insurance for good. remains in critical condition, one of 13 people shot last night in what we're told is gang related shooting. two teenagers were also hurt. a military style assault weapon was used. police have stepped up the cite fighting efforts adding extra patrols in high risk neighborhoods and chicago remains on pace for a murder rate they haven't seen since the 1960s. >> president obama will visit with victims of the washington navy yard massacre. they'll attends a memorial service at the marine barracks not far from the site of the shootings. the navy yard has reopened but the building remains closed. amanda knox will not return to italy for her appeals trial. that conviction was later overturned and prosecutors have decided to retry her and knox spoke out to matt lauer acknowledging that everything is still at stake and knows there's a chance she could be convicted again. >> what's your degree of confidence? i hate to do a scale of 1 to 10, a 10, an 8? >> i'm a 9. i mean, there's always the fear that lingering and the experience of having been convicted when i shouldn't have but things have changed. >> knox's trial begins in florence a week from monday. syria has sent a initial declaration outlining the ways to destroy the arsenal. after we've seen diplomatic efforts to move the process along have been slow at best. ahead of next week's u.n. general assembly meeting in new york, a new pugh poll shows americans support president obama putting syrian air strikes on hold. 67% approve of the president's decision to pursue diplomatic efforts instead. a quarter think diplomacy will work in forcing assad to hand over weapons. one historian says americans are right, dip ploem slomacy not intervention is the way to go. and the making of the modern world, michael burley looks to the cold war era for examples and lessens why it is often the right choice. you determine hot wars during the cold war era. and a majority of americans agree with that idea as we're faced with another conflict in the middle east. what should we learn from as we now debate this crisis in syria? >> well, i suppose the -- we ought to learn we shouldn't and try to impose our political systems on other people, least of all on societies whose complexities we don't understand at all. what's slightly different from the cold war is that there wasn't this type of moral or legal imperative to intervene in the internal affairs of countries and that's what we've really seen. outrageous evil things are shown on the television and there's a huge pressure build up for western countries or whoever to do something about it. not least the chemical attack in syria on the 21st of august. that's a relatively new thing that we take the moral high ground and intervene. my question though is about doing that, that unless you fully gain the consequences as colin powell once famously said, if you break it you own it. unless you think about all of the consequences and who you might be inadvertently be helping, you shouldn't do it. and the american people and the majority of the british people were quite right to say, no, this is one step too far. >> michael, i absolutely agree with you there and colin powell flossfy that you outlined. we were told if we didn't attack syria we would be sending the wrong mess to iran and they would develop their nuclear weapons and we would be one step away from apocalypse. we did not attack syria and now we're inching to, inching into diplomatic discussions with iran that seem to be a new way forward that we haven't seen in many, many years. clearly the intervention was not necessary to send the right message to iran. >> no, i think you're right about that. if you think about what we've just experienced in the last decade, the taliban regime, which after all is next to iran, to the east, was over thrown, saddam hussein's regime was overthrown and he was executed. it had the opposite effect. it didn't deter iran. they put ahmadinejad in power, who's a maniac and attempted a way to assemble a nuclear bomb. the idea that force somehow intimidates these people, it's wrong, it doesn't. >> when the president speaks at the u.n. next week, this will be coinciding with the an verse of a famous address by kennedy who spoke about the u.s. relationship with the soviet union. >> these are the basic differences between the soviet union and united states and cannot be concealed but i would say to the leaders of the soviet union, we have in recent years agreed on a limited test ban treaty on an emergency communications link between our capitals on a statement of principle for disrm amt, increase in cultural exchange and in cooperation in outer space, on the peaceful exploration of the an artic and tempering the crisis over cuba. >> substantive list of areas of agreement. why is it so hard for these two countries today from your view and work you did on your book? >> that's a very interesting question. we shouldn't be any under illusions, some of the more naive elements are treating vladimir putin as the savior of world peace. you shouldn't believe that for a minute. russia has hard interest in that part of the world. they see syria as access to the mediterranean, sitting on the eastern shore of the mediterranean and they are interested in offshore gas off cyprus and greece. they want the navy to go in and out of there, et cetera. the basic position is like the chinese, they are completely opposed to intervention in the internal affairs of sovereign states. that's why they are grouped together as the shanghai cooperation organization. putin personally after he was -- his diplomats were tricked and deceived about libya where nato was allegedly just going to protect the population of benghazi and it somehow inded up with gadhafi being murdered. they are digging their heels in with assad. the other plus point for them, is that whereas the united states has shown itself a very inconstant ally, mostly like people like mu bbaracmubarack, russians are quite loyal to their allies like with assad. >> it seems to me like sort of an impossibly high standard because this is all high probabilitieses, you never know what the consequences are going to be. did you look at an intervention that was successful or what criteria would you look at for a potential intervention? >> that's a very good question. everybody knows, all of this talk from politicians in west, our foreign secretary or your secretary of state, about the moderate rebels and we're going to help the moderate rebels. if you know anybody who has been in involved in moving weapons to these people and i know people who did it in libya, they will tell you it is impossible to quarantine the weapons and stop them drift being because factions break up and weapons m impossible. right now in syria there are over 50 different rebel factions inside the country. there are three different external leaderships. there are outside powers medlealing around in syria and of course the russians and americans waiting in the wings behind it. it is impossibly complex and could lead to war spreading in lebanon and spill over into turkey and into iraq, which we've -- you have used ten years of blood and treasure to keep it as one state. what about if it suddenly breaks up? this is a nightmare. we should not touch it. >> a lot of interesting points. a message that resonates with so many persons as well. thank you so much from joining us from across the ponds. are you smarting than you think? that's not possible for two of our cyclists. guess which ones? forty ti mes. forty ti mes. that's how often a group of house republicans have voted against obamacare, just to prove their allegiance to their party's right wing. okay - they've said their piece. but now they've gone even further... threatening to shut down the government if obamacare isn't dismantled. it could disrupt social security and veterans benefits, hurt job growth and undermine our economic recovery - tell these house republicans - enough already! i can't believe your mom has a mom cave! today i have new campbell's chunky spicy chicken quesadilla soup. she gives me chunky before every game. i'm very souperstitious. haha, that's a good one! haha! 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"401(k) hidden fees." then go to e-trade and roll over your old 401(k)s to a new e-trade retirement account. we have every type of retirement account. none of them charge annual fees and all of them offer low cost investments. why? because we're not your typical wall street firm that's why. so you keep more of your money. e-trade. less for us. more for you. from jacksonville to san francisco people are jumping in line to get the new iphone that hit the market today. locations are sold out of some models. many americans feel they can't go one hour without their phone, some thinkers believe an overreliance on technology is closing our minds and hearts. jonathan franzen, one most eloquent made waves with a commencement speech. our lives look more interesting when they are through the sexy facebook interface. a machine conforms our sense of mastering that critique makes sense to a lot of people, including my parents. some otherses have been arguing that when properly applied breakthroughs in technology are making us smarter and more connected, not only for socialize gs and consuming but driving political change. our next guest, clive thompson argues that you're better off with a brain on technology and his new book "smarter than you think how technology is changing our minds for the better". >> i'm glad to be here, thank you. >> you talk about the fact we have technology on our phones that can turn us into sort of miniature accountability czars, we can look at the police or government and actually take more control. i want to play a video about that. take a look at. >> protesters. >> what you're seeing here is some of the pepper spraying that occurred during the occupy protests and of course, that was first covered by people's phones. you write about it in the book and the videos were distributed quickly. do you think that is a positive thing for our politics and brains? >> absolutely. through decades, the only people that could take video and distribute it around the world were large organizations in control of the state or in control of the large corporations. now that you've got so many of these cameras and witnesses on the ground, it completely changes what we know about what's happening during times of political -- >> i want to show a clip of an older couple trying to figure out how to work a web cam. >> why won't it take a picture, take a photo. >> oh, dear. pardon me. >> i did it before by accident. >> we can all relate -- not to the burping part but technology. full disclosure, my grandparents are incredibly impressive when it comes to technology. but my 7-year-old teaches my parents how to worth their phone. can't you make the argument that technology is making us obsolete, are old people excluded from this idea that technology makes you smarter? >> i don't think so. i don't buy this idea that digital natives, people who inherently get it. i continually found people across all ages who were really adept. kids learn a lot -- more time to play around and learn, but anyone who really wants to sort of get into this and learn how to act in public and think in public and connect with people, does it it. >> clive, speaking of older people we saw john mccain recently talking about syria, something very serious and important, playing poker on his phone. you would never have the cards on your table playing in public but it's seen as acceptable to do on your phone. what about this notion that we're not present in the moment that exists at that time because we're to wrapped up in our sort of virtual lives? >> i think that can happen. it's true that people can zone out using devices and there's a good cultural conversation going on people saying should we really be doing this quite so much? it's obviously incredibly valuable but you have to pay attention to the one in front of you. i would point out after he did that with his phone he was soundly mocked across the nation. >> then tweeted about it. >> and clive, twitter ipo, yes or no? >> i think it's probably going to be bad for twitter. any time one of companies go public they have to start franticly pumping more money out of the system and that tends to go against the interesting things people are doing with it. >> clive thompson, thank you very much. and the emmy goes to -- before you enter the office pool. you'll find who hollywood's smart money is on this weekend. >> if the strike isn't over, i'll change the bill. >> frank. >> one more week, that's all. >> this is the worst possible position to be in. if i water down bill the president will still see me as a failure and strike doesn't end in a week i'll force myself into a corner. only total victory will put me back in good gragss, the alternative is exile. i cannot abide falling back to square one. 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[ male announcer ] getting to know you is how we help you choose the humana medicare plan that works best for you. mi familia. ♪ [ male announcer ] we want to help you achieve your best health, so you can keep doing the things that are important to you. taking care of our customers. taking care of her. and the next thing on our list is bungee jumping. [ male announcer ] helping you -- now that's what's important to us. you clearly don't know who you're talking to. let me clue you in. i am not in danger. i am the danger. a guy opens his door and gets shot and you think that of me. now, i am the one who knocks. >> not only will walter white kill you if you get in his way but "breaking bad" will murder the competition at the emmy awards this sunday, that's what i think. even though the best drama series race is a strong one. "game of thrones" and homeland" and "madmen." another great race is comedy, quts 30 rocks against "girls" and "modern family" and best sitcom, "louie." john, what's your best drama and why and best comedy series and why? >> i think, "breaking bad" will win best drama because it seems to be a show of the moment and the episodes are currently being shown on amc even though those aren't the episodes being voted on. comedy is a little more difficult for me to figure. just "modern family" won three years in a row. i don't know they can make it to the fourth. but is it "big bang theory" or more of a cult show like "girls" and louie. >> at what point does a show lose its appeal like that? you look at "30 rock," it can only last so long, right? >> i think there's a certain amount of fatigue with "modern family" but it's still very popular and does strong work. when you vote on specific episodes you have every chance of winning the emmy again and again, there isn't one single obvious alternative to "modern family." >> take a look at this clip. >> all i want is to write something you'll be excited to pub. is there something you want me to explore specifically? >> you could have a three some with some people you meet on craigs list or do a whole bunch of coke and right about it. >> the threesome is something i feel like i have enough trouble trying to place my attention on one person's body, which is something i write about it. in terms of cocaine, never done it before. >> even better. >> how does that kind of comedy that ironic, how does that play long term for the emmys? >> the people able to use the word sole on his tick -- >> that's a very large community in america. >> i do think that's part of the battle. it's not that hbo shows certainly can't win. they've done well in drama. there's always that possibility. but the show is a show that is not always enjoyedit. and i think it's a -- it's sort of a complicated show to assess. >> what? >> whoa, whoa, whoa. we love girls. >> in a relationship with girls. what about my favorite homeland which i'm obsessed with? you don't think they have a shot at best drama? >> absolutely they have a shot. "breaking bad" "homeland" "house of cards" from netflix and i wouldn't count out "mad men." definitely a tough competition, and "homeland" is the defending champ. >> and "house of cards" on netflix. >> huge moment in television history. a lot of the biggest shows that critics and voters are way into are ending, right? coming up on the end of "mad men," "breaking bad" so what will be the next iconic shows we'll be talking about? >> well, you know, "game of thrones" is a show that maybe hasn't gotten the recognition it deserves. so maybe as some of these amc shows get out of the way, more people are appreciate that show. the thing is, there are so many shows to choose from. "louie" to me as you mentioned before, is iconic. but there is a lot of shows to -- that divide our attention. and it's just hard for one show to sort of stand out. >> right. and on a lot of outlets, as well. >> and george r. martin was saying he thinks it's hard to win as a fantasy show for "game of thrones" is that your assessment? >> yeah, that's a standard thought because the voting body of the academy, look, they're not all of a certain type, but it's definitely a harder challenge to try to win with a genre show. >> speaking of that, though, i can't believe we have gotten this far without talking a lot about "mad men" definitely one of the greatest shows in modern history. they're going out, but they're not about to win. >> yeah, i mean, "mad men" won several years in a row with drama, and then last year got tons of nominations and didn't win at all, didn't win any em s emmys, as i recall. the big question with "mad men" since it has won before, what happens with jon hamm, are they really going to let this guy go without ever getting an emmy and i think the thinking is it's tough because kevin spacey has knocked people out. but jon hamm is really a guy whose turn is still waiting to come. >> jon hamm is killing it, but it's hard when somebody comes down from hollywood like kevin spacey, a real fantastic actor, and kills it on "house of cards" which is a first-rate show. john wiseman, thank you very much. miley cyrus is not expected at the emmy awards on sunday, but we asked our facebook friends if they think anyone will reprice the role of twerker. debby durham said well she could make a cameo appearance. never underestimate, hope not. and then, i'm sure they will have a parody about it, hope so. probably about right, joan. head over to our facebook page, let us know what you think before the ballots are counted. up next, the real story. david and goliath as told by biblical historian,tory -nicotin. i didn't want nicotine to give up nicotine. 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[ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase every day. told you i'd get half. what's in your wallet? . david took a stone, put it in the sling shot and slung it at goliath. >> goliath didn't get a chance to swing the sword, because the stone hit him right in the forehead and sunk hem deep. he face planted straight into the ground. nobody could believe it. then david ran over, took hold of the giant's sword, took the sword and cut off goliath's head. david carried the head all the way back to jerusalem. >> we know the story, or at least we think we do. tiny david, a shepard with a stone faced a giant warrior with a sword, but was able to pull up the upset of the millennium. that's the story we have been told, but mal con gladwell says we have completely misunderstood the story and the way we look at underdogs as all wrong. those ideas are at the heart of his fascinating new book, "david and goliath" the art of battling giants, which explores how things we think of as weaknesses are actually often strengths and things we think of as strengths can be the source of weaknesses and how underdogs who fight in innovative ways can change the odds completely. he calls the book a guide to facing giants. gladwell, of course, is a publishing world goliath. but in terms of the life of the mind, like david, in that he likes to show us new ways of approaching things. gladwell explains that david was an expert slinger and historians say in those times experienced slingers could kill a target from 200 yards away. medieval paintings show slingers hitting birds in flight and in the old testament, slingers are said to be accurate within a hair's breath. gladwell writes a ballistics expert tells him, a stone hurled from 35 meters away would have hit goliath's head with more than enough speed to penetrate his skull and kill him. goliath had as much chance against david as any warrior as an opponent with a .45 caliber handgun. and nobody watching this battle saw david would have considered his victory improbable because they knew good slingers would always beatin' fan tree men, because they the advantage of distance. david's genius was in fighting goliath on david's terms. the giant demanded and expected hand to hand combat but david changed the way they fought so he would have the advantage and hazard how underdogs of all sorts can change the odds in their favor, but altering the nature of the fight itself to better suit themselves. but why was goliath so caught off guard? once he saw that david was a slinger, he should have known he was in trouble. well maybe he couldn't see. gladwell quotes medical experts who believe the giant was extraordinarily huge, because of a disease caused by a benign tumor of the pituitary gland and a common side effect is bad vision. several stories back up the idea that his vision was poor, for example, being led out to battle by a small man. goliath couldn't see well unless you were close to him, so gladwell says, the thing that gave him size also his greatest weakness, which is the case far more often than we well. goliath seemed unbeatable but was prime

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