get these super low interest rates. had he paid a higher rate, he would have either had to cut back his spending, which he was doing at the time things like running for president, which cost him $66 million the first time, or he would have had to change hi business sell assets, something like that, in order to afford his lifestyle and business. that was an interesting analysis. >> that was new to you. did that go to motive? >> exactly. why would somebody lie about their net worth so persistently for so long? i've got as to say donald trump is a one of a kind person. we've been doing "forbes" for 10 had years, no one on it has ever lied so persistently about their net work as donald trump. so i think there's something psychological here more than a business motive, but certainly there are business motives, too, hey, this is a guy who was short on cash, figured out a way to