Transcripts For MSNBC Stone Ghosts in the South 20240707

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[inaudible] [noise] >> after the unlawful assembly was declared. it was literally manifested. it felt like we won. i heard this loud bang. [noise] one car got pushed into the intersection. another car got pushed in right behind it. it was just utter chaos. >> it is hard to imagine that such a big moment, had to be in this little space. but that is common in america. these big moments and little spaces. >> absolutely. this is what we learn. all of these small spaces have set the stage for huge explosions. >> the battle in charlottesville seem to be over a single statue. and it is a battle that has been repeated in cities across the country. but more than 1500 monuments to the confederacy remain. honoring those who fought and died to keep black america, like my ancestors, in bondage. so i drove down there to learn for myself just how deep these roots are buried. i'm looking for understanding. for something that will make sense in this moment. along the way, i visited monuments. those are that are not so easily removed. artifacts, small enough for some to ignore. landmarks, too big to take down. that reside in our memory, and in our blood. because the fight was always more than just a statue. beautiful morning in frederick ville, virginia. i didn't want to take this journey alone, so i asked my friend, a reporter from the new york times to join me. to help me process what it all means. >> what is going on? or >> good to see you. >> we talked about race in history, how his people came from trinidad. and mine from the slave trade. in 2017, the city council of fredericksburg, took out the question whether to remove a slave auction block that stands in the corner of downtown. >> where about to see an auction block where people were sold. what's crazy is we look at the old advertisements, several strong negroes for sale! but the idea that we're not just talking about what we considered as manual labor, we are talking about artists and professionals. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> when my uncle was young, he took a picture on the slave block. they wanted him to take a picture. for him, it was about getting the money because he paid him. and when my grandfather realize that he had sat on that block and had his picture taken. my grandfather whipped him and threw the money away. and he told me what that block was. and why he was never to go on that block again. that story has been with us since we were little. this says, not only did we not want to hear. but we still do not want to hear. >> the lone black councilman pushed to remove the auction block. the six white people in the council said they voted to keep it in place for future generations. >> i heard you say that fredericksburg maybe the most famous city in america. >> indeed, our city's most famous. when i walk by city hall, i walk by -- i walk by the home that my mother was born in. >> you also walked by an auction block, didn't you? >> i did. >> what does that mean in terms of the history? at some point, you arrived at a point in history where people were bought and sold in this community. >> that is an artifact. the very fact that you can stand where somebody was treated as property, and where families were separated, is very moving. it's like what germany did when they kept auschwitz, and all. it's like, don't ever forget. you can't ever forget how horrible that was. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> councilman chuck, proposed removing the block. >> the auction block has been on my mind for a time, since i was a kid. i see people spit on it, and i thought [inaudible] their lives were so depart. and my thing was all always that it needs to go. it was a 61 vote with city council. >> do you think there is a way to do the block in a respectful way and keep their? >> i can't change my view. it tells a story that is a more full in-depth story. >> when you walk by there, with your children, with your people. what is the message that you are sending? >> there is a possibility that you're great grandfather was sold here. >> it seems the fight over the auction block is what's in our history? what it represents as a rippling effect of what it represents. >> that is america. >> the black barbershop has always been a place of community. where wisdom is passed, and stories are traded. today is no different. >> so what was it like growing up with that often block right there? >> it was an embarrassment. i do not need to see that box to no wet the past was. >> it made you mad because i could sit there with my great grandmother, my great-grandfather. you bring them there and then you sell them. how are you trying to memorialize something like that? >> it is completely unfair and unreal that people can sit there and say that, oh well we are just saving history. no, what you are doing is sitting in our faces! that is what you are doing! >> just across the river from downtown is the chattel plantation. where hundreds of slaves toiled for a century. >> you imagine the conversation that happened here, the idea that fear was in the family. torture. but the flipside is, the fear that you could be sold at the auction block. >> yeah, can you imagine that. from down here, looking up here. you see this brick house. but you're not thinking, you're in the haunted house. >> but the only thing you're serving is the servitude, or death. but is something running away? for the white folks, it says the children would respond. and there's terror. but thousands of black folks went across the river to join the army. could you imagine [inaudible] ? -- in kentucky, the birthplace of jefferson davis, they are struggling with telling a story among these memorials. including [inaudible] dedicated to the only president of the confederacy. >> look at that, my goodness! 20 [inaudible] that is huge! when you're thinking about the conversation and debate over the last year, what are the effects that cannot be turned down by this statue? how can they go into this debate. we are talking about a novelist at -- . >> that's why we're moving into, within the past few years it is talking about the construction of confederate memory in kentucky. routed specifically in the routes that are raising money to create this audience of landscape today. to sell it back to not only the south, but the entire nation. and with the south in the civil war, recognizing that this history comes much later. it is situated with the story of the process. >> during the early 20th century, groups in the confederacy started promoting a revisionist spin on the war. this lost cause was about more than memorializing the confederacy. it was about paying the north as an occupying force. and the south as noble defenders of virtue. all while -- . the influence would have -- . the united daughters of the confederacy were especially horrific. starting in the 1890s, they put out many memorials to the confederacy. symbols of the confederacy aren't all copper and stone. for decades, descendants of veterans have connected through the path through these. jeff has been living through this for 25 years. he compares dozens of soldiers to his family tree. when we're looking at here? >> this is a six pounder, model. >> it's a big topic. >> well, you didn't own slaves. >> does that affect you at all, given the fact that there's a large population of americans who those monuments represent? >> so, should we squash it? do we rewrite history? if you don't have some type of proof, generations from now, you have people arguing that eight major vanish >> considering that for a great number of people, those things represent deep trauma and greet violence against people. >> have we got beyond that? >> have we? >> well, how many people living in america today we're sleeves? how many people living in america today own sleeves? it's roughly zero, so we should've gotten beyond. >> but we don't have, myself for example, we don't have our last names, a religion, my tongues. >> this language is not my language either. >> right, but you benefit. >> everybody in america has a benefit. it's the greatest country in the world. >> but not everyone has a benefit of slavery. >> everybody living in america today has a great benefit. >> the people of african descent in this country, people descendants of slaves, what benefit do they get from slavery? >> they're here. you are kind of surrounded by momentous from the past. monuments to confederacy. >> how do you grapple with the a uncle ugly underbelly? >> there is a lack of consideration of how this might make us as americans feel. it seems to be this lock on the idea that we can't deal with history. we are not talking about your history. >> coming up, my conversation with the descendant of the son of the confederacy. that is ahead when stone goes to the south after this. gotcha. ...not your family. zevo is made with essential oils which attack bugs' biological systems. it gets rid of the bugs plus is safe for use around people and pets. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. i typed in my dad's name... and i found his childhood home. he's been wondering about the address for seventy years... 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>> to me, yes, absolutely. because everything that's handed down this chair has remembrance to me. a confederate statue, when those first put it up, it had reference to them. >> how do you balance or reconcile or wrestle with the dual americans around jefferson davis? one, that we've all heard is the first and only president of the confederacy. on the other hand, there's 52 years of his life before the civil war. >> i don't know, i reconcile almost as much as i try to bring them together to have a complete understanding. and when you put that four years of its life, which is 5% in total perspective, is it what it is that we want to remember? or do we want to have a complete understanding of the entire four years of his life? >> but that four years is pretty big for years, right? >> pretty big for years because it was the most dramatic part of american history and a lot of respect. but they let that country in the position that he was appointed to. not one that he wanted. >> since we're dealing with the folks who do a lot of jefferson davis is that he supported the expansions of slavery even before the civil war before he came the president of the confederacy. he did not believe that black people were inferior to white people. in your mind, thus that tarnishes legacy at all? >> what bothers me the most is exactly what you just said. the statements he made and reference to the sleeves were his own feelings about their status. and i cannot say that i support that. but, again, it's the link the perspective of the time in the police that he lived. it is not the most favorable aspect. but it is part of his character and we have to understand that. >> i have to wonder, aren't you welcomed in those groups that are so staunchly pro confederate? they don't to see anything happen to any statues, they don't to see anymore plaques, are you welcomed in those spaces? >> in the pro confederate folks, i would say that i'm probably not. >> before leaving town, we hear that there is one more stop we should make if we really want to understand why keep so many southern whites rooted to the confederacy. >> first, could you do -- you mind spelling and saying your first and last name for us? >> my first name is gordon, g o r d o, and and cotton, co tio, and just like you pick. >> so, with all the confederate statues and the, flag is it time for us to move forward? >> no, because if we move forward, we're going to leave everything else out of our history. are we going to be selective and what we are going to keep in what we are gonna forget? >> but, what about this idea that these men were fighting to maintain that system of slavery? >> that was it all, they were fighting because our homes were invaded. >> the whole thing was based on money. most things are. >> going back to the charlottesville was killed -- someone was shot and someone else was beaten up. does it surprise you want to see that some people are beloved to but their support in defense of robert e. lee and the rest? >> well, they aren't the ones that started it. defending, it yes, i can understand that. but they are not the ones who started. it had the people not wanted to tear down a beautiful monument, it would've happened. >> perhaps they should be moved to somewhere where they can be respected, not in a place of public display where it's doing nothing but sending us a certain kind of message. >> i totally disagree with you. it happened right here, we commemorate it right here. >> what do you think of jefferson davis? >> he is my personal hero. i think he is one of the greatest men in american history. >> what about him, obviously, being someone who supported slavery? should that diminish or tarnishes like a seattle? >> no, because he was not the only one. i think growing up in this community seven miles from briers feel, going to a school named jefferson davis, can destroy what they can, but they can never destroy the nature of the man. >> how much trans do you get to the idea that these are men of their time. >> certainly that they were men of their time, but that it's exactly what we, say that we forget? they're >> having this conversation is kind of weird with people who are able, somehow, to separate, you know, african slavery and the inferiority of black people. let's, say they are great guys who had a lot of accomplishments. that's hard to square. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> can you imagine this filled with people and tear gas, police on horseback's, baton beaten bloody out here? but this is stone cold history. alabama play such a crucial role in some of the most infamous periods of violence, right? but also of civil rights of progress. and so, this place here, it plays a significant role. it is significant one side of history because and then pettus was framed as a come for the reds leader and as a grand dragon. but, also associated him with the bridge with the fight for black civil rights. >> throughout this whole trip, we have heard people talking about issue and history. this is one of those cases where i think it's someone says, that it kind of makes sense to me. i don't know. >> in this old section -- [inaudible] >> there's a guy can. jefferson davis. [inaudible] grandmaster of the klan. this monument was erected october 7th 2000. there is no way to describe this man. this man stands out of testament and devotion and respect. one of the self finance heroes. >> up next, the southern history that is not told in these monuments, the horrors of slavery and of lynchings. you will meet a woman whose fathers was lynched and erected her own plaque to memorialize the place where he was murdered just 20 miles from the alabama capital. stone ghost in the south continues right after this. a monster was attacking but the team remained calm. because with miro, they could problem solve together, and find the answer that was right under their nose. or... his nose. age comes with wisdom. and wisdom comes with benefits. dryer's broken okay... you want a socket.... that's especially true when it comes to medicare. so make the wise call and learn more about cigna medicare plans in your area. their tools and resources make it simple and easy. bears can smell wifi. visit cignawisecall.com today. you want to flip it. every search you make, every click you take, every move you make, every step you take, i'll be watching you. the internet doesn't have to be duckduckgo is a free all in one privacy app with a built in search engine, web browser, one click data clearing and more stop companies like google from watching you, by downloading the app today. >> when you look here, people duckduckgo: privacy, simplified. were judged by their skill, their price, their complexion. >> the daughters of the confederacy they were an active group. look at this, the nightly as of the nightly race. i'm assuming not africans. a deathless all of chivalry, it's about sullivan chivalry, standing for their homes, their farms, their children. >> there is no tearing this thing down, this will bloom here, this is in some little town square, this is the state house of alabama. some memorials are easier to find than others. 20 miles from the capitol, a plaque stands on the side of the highway. it marks the spot where he was lynched, and his body left in a ditch just 100 yards from where his five-year-old daughter josephine waited for him to come home. when you're black in alabama, you can't help but walk in the shadows of these huge confederate monuments. do you see a connection between the message being said about white supremacy and what happened to your father? >> very much so. the articles that described my father's death say enraged white jealous of the success of a black man. you acquire more than they think you should, they have to put you back in your place. >> enraged? >> enranged. >> josephine says she paid for her father's marker herself after the state refused to allow her to place it in public view. >> when you think about what you missed in life from not having him -- >> my mom went from prosperity to poverty almost overnight. sometimes i've wondered what their life could've been had he lived. what's my life could've been. >> his name was included among the thousands of lynching victims at the national memorial for peace and justice. the memorials director, brian stevenson, hopes the collected names will help change the narrative of a country still grappling with how to tell its own story. >> when i moved to montgomery, this was a study that had 59 markers and monuments of confederacy and you couldn't find the word slave and slave free anywhere? >> how is that possible? >> people had been intentional about denying that part of our history. so this memorial, this site, this is intended to be an intentional response to our silence. >> we talked to folks around the country about the confederacy stood for, the monuments, they say black people own slaves to, there were white slaves. >> there are many reasons beyond slavery. >> these are all things that are designed to deracialized what happened. and they are aberrations. we've allowed that to happen because we were fighting these other struggles, right? this site is designed to help people understand that you can't ignore this any longer. >> you see one county with one name and then one county with two names and then you see a county like this with over a dozen names. >> do you have any dodge county georgia? >> my great-grandfather in dodge county georgia, there was some issue with a white man, and at the end of the year, he sent his son, cornelia, into town they shot him put him on a horse and sent him back. and we have the death certificate says aged 12, 12 gunshots. >> people who engage in these terror luncheons could've buried the body in the ground, could've tried to hide the violence, that's what you would imagine people would do. they did the opposite, they were proud to engage in this kind of racial terror. that's why hanging was so common. the whole idea was to taunt and to terrorize and to torment african americans. that's why you have to think about this as terrorism. there are thousands who get killed, but there are millions who are victimized. seven black people lynched in screamer alabama in 1888 for drinking from a white man's well. dozens in louisiana because they were protesting their low wages. >> am i crazy for -- when i read these things i'm scared, i feel like that's could've been last week. >> it could've been. >> one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. it weighs on you. >> there are so many more, i know from my family story what happened, and he is not here. >> there are so many more. >> some say these monuments are about heritage, but if anything, they are also reminders of america's unsettled war with itself. i started this journey looking for light and understanding, to examine what these monuments mean to those who honor them. but it was never about the monuments, the large, looming stone facades. or the grotesque stumbling blocks. or what lives inside the man who is grappling with history had been shaped by the myths they holds true. it was about a reckoning and a time of american terror. i'm not sure where we go from here, but the road through history is long. with markers along the way. that dreams are ours too. and our financial planning tools can help you reach them. that's the value of ownership. my husband and i have never been more active. shingles doesn't care. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingrix today. ♪♪ i occasionally get bladder leaks. i tried always discreet underwear. it absorbs an entire glass of water. it fit like a glove. it just felt like real underwear. game changer! it's the protection we deserve. 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