sophisticated if you think about it and that makes it difficult for governments including the national government to actually counteract them. is that a problem that people in the intel community feel or the governments feel? you can't compel a john podesta to have a two-step email verification or take down the bot accounts. because they're so unsophisticated they can't compel a government response. >> yeah. i think that's a great point. you know when you talk about two step verification, the basic things, if you think of your cyber defense as a chain, you're only as strong as your weakest link. i think human networks are always going to be vulnerable to that sort of thing. going back to the estonia case, that was a d-dos attack. it wasn't sophisticated but that you saw was a really novel for