the government has the responsibility to care for them. >> a debate this morning about the 47%. taxes and government dependence. with two top surrogates for the candidate. democratic governor of massachusetts, duvall patrick and republican senator from new hampshire, kelly ayok. and then our political roundtable on the romney campaign under fire from romney conservatives what is the turn-around plan. are romney's troubles overstated? and what to look for as the candidates prepare for the debate. with a senior adviser to the romney campaign of democratic mayor of atlanta. and host of msnbc's "morning joe," joe scarborough and dee dee myers and chuck todd about what new polls in the battleground states tell us about the race. good sunday morning, election day is 44 days away. but early voting starts soon in several key battleground states. polls showing a small pool of undecided voters left. it's important for mitt romney as he tries to steady his campaign before the all-important presidential debates begin october 3rd. joining me two top surrogates, democratic governor of massachusetts, duvall patrick and the republican senator from new hampshire, kelly ayotte. good to have you here. a lot to get to. let's start with the issue of taxes and mitt romney's tax returns he released showing in 2011 he paid an effective tax rate of 14%. he didn't have a job, this was interest income. governor, should this end the debate or should there be more? >> i understand people's interest in and in fact curiosity about mitt romney's tax returns. think it was his dad who said that tax returns for presidential candidates should be produced way back many years and i think he produced 20 years' worth of tax returns or more. when he was being considered for vice president. but the more i think important issue is what is it he plans to do with my taxes and yours and everybody else's? he has a tax plan out there where he's talking about $5 trillion in tax cuts. adding to the deficit. no way to pay for that and no idea about how, what the impact is on the middle class. >> the question of more returns and what some of the overseas holdings were, you don't think that's an appropriate place to -- >> i think it's a fair question. i think the bigger question is what is it he plans to do with everybody else's taxes. >> ez ra klein asked a bigger-picture question as well in his column in the "washington post." i want to put a portion up on the screen. in 2011 romney made $14 million while being unemployed. klein writes compare romney to sangle mother of two who works full time at walmart who takes the earned income tax credit and whose children get health insurance through medicaid. romney said she's not taking personal responsibility, going back to the 47% comment. he said he couldn't get her to take personal responsibility if he tried. and yet romney is someone who doesn't have to take personal responsibility for earning money any more. he's beyond all of that and he's carried that belief into his policy proposal, his policy platform matches his comments, he won't raise taxes on the rich. but he wants to cut medicaid by over $1 trillion in the next decade. >> what governor romney wants, he wants to make sure the mother has a good job, a better paying job. where we are in this economy, think about it, we've added 15 billion people to the food stamp rolls, excuse me, million, during this presidency, we now have 47 million people on food stamps, it's unfortunate. these people want to get off food stamps, and have the good jobs, but where the economy is right now, so many people have lost hope. the last jobs report showed for every job added, four people have left the workforce because the president, let's not forget the president and democrats were in charge for the first two years. the policies they passed didn't deal with where we are in the economy. think about the stimulus. >> i want to talk specifically about tax returns. 14% in an effective tax rate. does that make it harder for governor romney to reach out to average americans and say, i get you. >> governor romney is reaching out to average americans with a plan to get people working again. because the president's policies have not worked. he tried, but we talked about the tim stimulus, his team represented we'd be below 6%. we'd had over 43 months of over 8% unemployment. the lowest labor participation rate, people are leaving the workforce, so where governor romney is saying to people, he wants opportunity. he wants the upward mobility for that mother. >> you talk about upward mobility. that's not something we saw out of his speech he gave back in july at a fundraiser to wealthy donors. this where the 47% came from. and in context here, let's play a portion of that, to see exactly ha his, what his vision was. >> i said the 47% were with him who are, who believe that they're victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them. who believe that they're entitled to health care, to food, to housing. to you name it. that's entitlement. and the government should do it. and they will vote for this president, no matter what. it's responsibility. >> senator, they see themselves as victims. he now says that he's really for the 100% in america. is anybody going to buy that, given that dim vision of half the country? >> you know, david, that certainly was a political analysis at a fundraiser, buttis not a governing philosophy. it's different from this president, to get our economy moving. we have to look back at the policies of this president and where we are as an economy. >> before we get to that particular argument, do you see 47% of the country that receives government dependence? do you think they see themselves as victims? >> whey see is what the governor sees, i see 15 million more people on food stamps that don't want to be enter. i see 47 million of americans overall on food stamps that want a good job, they don't want to be on unemployment. but where we are with the policies under this administration, the tax regulatory policies, the more government spending, adding $5 trillion to the debt, those opportunities aren't there for them and that's what this election is about. >> it's shocking to me that a candidate could aspire to be president by turning his back on half the country. and i think that's what came through. i think i can tell you as someone who grew up on welfare, who spent some time on food stamps, my mother was just the kind of person that i think the senator is describing. who was aspiring. to get to a better place. to get her g.e.d., to get her job, to stand on her own two feet and the notion that she or we or people like us, would be belittled while we needed some help to be able to stand on or own two feet is exactly what i think governor romney is conveying. >> do you think that president obama has not said to group of donors, look, there's certain segments of the republican electorate that are just not going to vote for me? why shouldn't this be seen as political analysis and not a governing philosophy. >> what the president has done most importantly is governed for all the people. he's advanced policies that are not popular with his base. but he did them because he thought they were posh for the future of this country -- important for the future of this country. >> let's talk specifically, senator about, some of the issues the 47% gets to the question of dpost dependence. as you referenced, here are a couple of the snapshots of government dependence nationally that have raised some eyebrows and that indeed governor romney has talked b. you talk about food stamps now, nearly 47 million americans on food stamps, up dramatically from four years ago. here's a broader picture from the "wall street journal" and the census bureau. if you go back to the early '80s and upwards, 49% now receiving some kind of government benefit. is government dependence at a place where it's out of control? >> well, david, think where we are is that too many people have to rely on food stamps or unemployment benefits, instead of a good job. that's what this comes down to. to think that so many people have left the workforce when you look at the august report where every job added, four people have left. with over 43 straight months of over 8% unemployment. let's not forget the president and the democrats had two years, what did they do? they passed health care reform where the president represented that premiums would go down, they've gone up. this week we've got a report from cbo that six million middle class americans will get hit by the tax penalties in the president's health care reform. so the policies that he pushed when they were in charge. did not address the problems and that's why we need new leadership of making sure that we get people working and again. someone who has the private-sector experience to turn the economy around. >> i want to agree with some of what the senator has said about the fact that more people on food stamps, ba because we're in a terrible economy and more people need a way forward. i would submit that most of those people, if not all, want a job and we have to be about strengthening this economy. i think adding some $4.6 million private-sector jobs in the last two years as the president has, more in that time than george w. bush added in eight years, is a definite and indeed a profound example of the progress that we're making. and the policies that are on offer, by governor romney are policies that have shown themselves to fail. so the notion of benefitting the very fortunate, exclusively and letting it trickle down to everybody else, is something that has been shown to fail in the past. we should not go back. >> senator, a bigger question, partly a political question. i know you're a supporter of governor romney's campaigning forum in new hampshire. but here's a reality. he offered policy analysis on 47% of this country, including a lot of republican voters, people who receive entitlements through social security and medicare that they paid into. he's talking about this group of people, will not take personal responsibility. it betrayed a lack of understanding of how the government works, how america works. the american work ethic. do you think he needs to go beyond saying this was inelegant. so saying he was flat wrong? >> i have to say this, david, i absolutely disagree with your analysis of this. i campaigned with him, i knows he cares about every single american in this country and that he has a vision, unlike this president, where we are today. we're declining. we're need to come out of this to think about where we are with this president has more months of over 8% unemployment than the last 11 presidents combined. this, you think about governor romney. wants opportunity. wants upward mobility. wants people to have the good-paying job. and that is what his whole campaign is about. by the way, if you think about the policies of the last two years, all they brought us is more unemployment. what we need is people to have a good-paying job. i hear from small business every day, the right tax regulatory policies, these are mom-and-pop businesses that feel burdened by this administration. >> part of it he was talking about 47% of american who is pay no federal income tax and too dependant on the government -- his words -- to do everything for them. housing, food, et cetera, you're not being responsible to that point. on the tax question i pose this question in the senate, in the virginia senate debate between tim cain and george allen. they were talking about whether there should be a minimum federal income tax. this is how tim kane answered the question. >> do you believe everyone in virginia should pay something in federal incox tax. >> would you be open to that, governor? >> maybe, the first i'm hearing about it. should everybody have skin in the game? >> well, that's where i was going. i think we go to this question of taxes, tax cuts, tax increases and so forth. too fast. we, it seems to me the first question ought to be, what is it we want government to do and not do? what's the sensible way and fair way to pay for that? i really believe in this notion, just as president does, of common as you and common destiny. that we all have stake in educating our kids. we all have a stake in assuring that this country is well defended. we all have a stake in investing in the infrastructure that creates a platform for economic growth and opportunity. we all have a stake in the american dream. we used to come together around that the kind of sharp, poisonous political discourse that characterizes so much of what goes on in the congress, i mean no disrespect, senator, personal disrespect in, no disrespect at all in fact, not just personal in saying that. you think that the country is hungry for a kind of a conviction-based leadership. frankly the kind of leadership -- >> the irony of this of course, the president ran as someone who z going to unite people. but everything when you listen to the way that he's trying to divide us. you know whether it's rich versus poor, have's versus have-not's. and wanting to bring people together. blaming republicans, all the problems on other areas 0 other people. think about the comment this week about you can't change washington from the inside. he had two years in charge. i agree with the governor, we do need leadership that unites and we do need leadership of someone who is thinking about making sure that we have those opportunities so that we're not in a position where 47% -- >> you're not blaming president for pitting classes against each other. after governor romney said 47% of the country are freeloaders who won't take personal responsibility. >> just to hear what the governor is saying here, i certainly respect what essaying but if you look at what the president has said and what he's done. of where we are. his leadership on his policies have failed and he has not been the uniting force that we need to get things done. >> on one point, the issue of the president's record, it has to do with high unemployment. and something that caught our eye this week as we were looking, this comment from the chairman of the congress at black caucus, manuel cleaver, congressman from missouri spoke on monday. this is what he wrote. i'm supposed to say he doesn't get a pass but i'm not going to say 2456789 look as the chair of the black caucus, i've got to tell you we're always hesitant to criticize the president. with 14% black unemployment. if we had a white president, we would be marching around the white house. pretty stinging criticism from the chairman of the black caucus. >> i respect the chairman of the black caucus and the fact that there is 14%, if that's the right number, unemployment among black people. among young people, the unemployment rate is higher than the national average as well. nobody is prepared to declare victory. we've had the worst economic environment in a generation or two. since the great depression and that was caused by the way, by some of the very policies that governor romney is urging on the country today. this president has turned that around. this president has shown that he's able to swim against the current and make some change. and so we see more people with health care in this country than ever before. more people, more private-sector jobs in the last two years than the previous eight. we've seen the automobile industry saved. we've seen the financial industry saved. we've seen the country brought back from the brink of depression. are we done? of course not, of course not. but we're certainly on a about thor course and pointed in the right direction. >> david, i guess what i heard was, that this president needs more time. but where we are, if you think about it, this is the worst economic recovery since world war ii and it's been an anemic recovery. when they had full charge of the congress, they pushed forward a health care bill where people are paying more for premiums. people are going to be hit, middle class hit with the tax penalty. where the regulatory climate for this country, small businesses, they're not going to create the job and the governor has a plan to make sure that we simplify lower rates. make it a better tax climate for everyone, for everyone and make sure that we get people to work. a regulatory climate where small businesses want to thrive and grow. it's been the opposite as the president, i would say he tried, but his policies failed. >> let me end on one issue that's important to us as nbc news, that's the issue of education, a big summit we're beginning, "education nation" today. >> thank you for doing that. >> it's important, we certainly are committed to it part of that is a conversation with president obama, that "the today show's" savannah guthrie conducted. i want to play a portion of that about where the political debate is now. >> mitt romney said that president obama has chosen his side in this fight. that you sided with the unions. and another time last spring, he said he can't talk of reform while indulging in groups that block it. >> well, you know, i think governor romney and a numb of folks try to politicize the issue and do a lot of teacher-bashing. when i meet teachers all across the country, they're so devoted, so dedicated to their kids. and what we've tried to do is actually break through this left-right conservative-liberal gridlock and that's what my key reform has been all about. a race to the top. >> more of that education nation interview with president obama tuesday and wednesday on the "today show." plus a live conversation with governor romney at education nation, that summit on tuesday. quickly from both of you. governor, have we moved beyond this pro union anti-union debate? >> we better, in massachusetts our students are number one in the nation in student achievement and have been for each of the last now years. we have the most unionized education system, i think in the country. the unions are intent at the table with us on reform for more than a decade. we moved a bill a couple of years ago to try to close the achievement gap and they were right there with us. >> senator? >> i would ask mayor emmanuel where we are right now on the unions this is clearly an important issue on the chicago strike and obviously governor romney believes kids first, unions last. i think where condoleezza rice hit it at our convention, that giving parents, empowering parents with school choice, with under-performing schools, minority students, poor students, that's the civil rights issue of this tile and i think unfortunately in the areas of d.c. opportunity scholarship turned his back on it. that's where we need to go and governor romney supports that. >> a note to our viewers, a question that comes up a lot. we have longstanding invitation for president obama to appear on this program and share his views about this important campaign and we hope he will choose to do so before this election. if you missed mitt romney's interview a few weeks ago, see it on nbcnews.com. coming up, can mitt romney turn the campaign around? is there time to reshape the race? particularly with early voting starting. joining us on the roundtable, atlanta mayor and msnbc's joe scarborough, and david brooks and dee dee myers, plus, nbc's chuck todd joins us to break down new polls in the battleground states. down polls in the [ male announcer ] you're not the type of person who sets goals and only hopes to achieve them. so you'll be happy to know that when it comes to your investment goals, northern trust uses award-winning expertise to lead you through an interactive investment process. adding precision to your portfolio construction by directly matching your assets and your risk preferences against your unique life goals. we call it goals driven investing. y