ryan's. a spokesman said the congressman has been made aware of the conversation. nick iellli of wtmj radio is in milwaukee with more. what are the latest events? >> right now in southeast wisconsin kr the shooting occurred, the second shooting in just a few months in the region there was a lot of confusion and a lot of fear around the area of brookfield square mall that you just mentioned. what we know is earlier this morning, a shooter opened fire near the mall. you mentioned that it happened near the mall. that is true, it happened actually at a spa adjacent to that mall. right now brookfield square mall is complete i had shut down. there's a country club nearby that's also shut done. there is a multitude of authorities all around the area. the big unknown right now is this is the scary part, the gunman appears to be at large and right now, authorities have not told the media where he is. what we know is one of the employees at the spa where the shooting occurred, was apparently in a deteriorating marriage with the shooter. the woman had filed for divorce this month. even filed a restraining order against the man. we're hearing from some of the co-workers at the spa where the shooting happened. that the man had been letting the air out of her tires, things like that, recently. and the marriage was going downhill. and right now, the information that we're getting is so fluid and the situation is so ongoing that we're just waiting for authorities to give us an update. as you said, several people are confirmed to be injured. a milwaukee-area hospital is confirming to us that seven people at least are hurt we're hearing the good news right now, four of them are not critically injured. the other three, no word on them. another disconcerting factor, richard, is we're hearing that a bomb squad in the milwaukee county area is on the scene near where the shooting happened. we're hearing that an ied may have been placed somewhere near. that a propane tank, explosive is near the scene. fbi officials on the scene. right now it's just not clear where the man is is he inside the spa where the shooting took place. is he headed home, is he headed toward the hospital where some of the victims are. we're awaiting information from the authorities. a lot of fear and uncertainty surrounding this situation in milwaukee right now. >> we're only three hours into this so far. we understand that the hospital is under lockdown what details do you have on that? >> we know there are many, many authorities around the hospital. police vehicles. what we can use conjecture here is the only thing we have. again, if you give me a moment, i can tell you a little bit about the sikh temple shooting, we knew what was happening as the situation was unfolding. authorities said the shooter was down. it may or may not be a fluid situation inside the building. they were looking for possible ieds or bobby traps inside the building. right now we don't have any information, we don't know if there are any ieds inside the spa. >> nick what we're hearing from freighter hospital and their pr team, i just got this note, is that they have no indication that the shooter is on his way to the hospital. the hospital is on lockdown. three victims are still on their way to the hospital. when they arrive, they can be admitted. nick, stand by, we going to go straight to the hospital. melissa wenke is the media specialist at the hospital. are you on lockdown? >> yes, we are on lockdown. it is a precautionary measure. right now we have no information, that leads us to believe that the shooter is here. >> how long has the hospital been on lockdown? >> i don't have that information. right now, not long. >> how long do you plan on having it on lockdown? >> i don't have that information. >> and relatives and those who want to go there, you have seven victims who were admitted? >> we've had four victims admitted and are expecting three more to come. >> what's the status of the four? >> i know that the four are being evaluated and they have noncritical injury. >> what sort of injuries are these in. >> i don't know the answer to that. >> the other 3m three are on the way, is what you're saying? >> we're expecting potentially to have three more victims come to the hospital, yes. >> what else do you know about the situation based on the victims that have come to the hospital and what you have heard from family members and authorities? >> actually not much. we're just kind of trying to gather all the information that we can right now. >> when the hospital is on lockdown what does that mean? >> we are not allowing any patients or visitors or staff members to enter or exit the hospital. >> does this mean that you have security officers or police officers at the doors and entrances? >> yes, we do. >> how many do you have there? >> i don't have the answer to that right now. actually. >> thank you so much, appreciate your time. >> nalissa wienke. nick you're still with us. we've heard from the hospital, not a lot of information at the moment. they have no awareness of the suspect heading to that location. you were saying that they don't know where the suspect is at. give us what you know right now about who this suspect is. we've been hearing from co-workers at the azana salon and spa, near the expansive shopping center in the city of brookfield west of milwaukee. the co-workers in the spa have been giving us insight into what happened here. apparently an employee at the spa was involved in a marriage that was deteriorating. and the man who has been aggravating her throughout this month was letting the air out of her tires. doing things like that. a restraining order filed by the woman earlier this month. that's what we know right now. we're not seeing this person's name yet. because authorities have not been communicating with us or with any members of the media, as of yet. this afternoon. but it appears that the catalyst for this shooting today was a domestic incident or domestic dispute of some kind between a husband and wife who are just getting divorced right now. a woman, the woman filed for divorce on friday, actually we're hearing. and that's what we know right now. >> talk about this mall. it happened at 11:00 a.m., right? we're looking at 11:00 a.m. local time. about three hours ago. 11:00 a.m., this is when families start to go out and start to shop. describe how busy from what you understand the mall was at that time? >> it is a very large shopping center. and it should be noted that the spa is not in the mall. it is adjacent to the mall. but when we say mall -- >> do you mean across the street? >> yes. when we say mall, it is not just one building. this is a place where there are many, many buildings and it has, it's a huge shopping center. it's very crowded over the weekend. and initially that's why it was such a big deal to have the entire brookfield square mall area shut down. an interesting thing that we've been hearing from witnesses is that the mall was not lock down immediately. because again authorities were trying to determine exactly what they had here. >> do you know hows that reacted from the first call to when they arrived? >> we're still awaiting information from authorities. we have been hearing from witnesses who are around the area of brookfield square mall when this happened and they have dramatic and very graphic stories this afternoon. they were describing bloody victims crawling out of the spa. screaming for help. one man said he was driving down a very busy arterial in the area around brookfield mall when a woman came up to his car and started pounding on his hood. a man with a gun started chasing after her. this is again, the uncertainty factor here, richard. is that we're hearing that the gunman may have run back into the spa. after causing the incident in the middle of the road. he may have run away. some authorities had released a description of a car he may have been driving this is very unusual comaired to recent mass shootings. we don't know where the shooter is. we did hear from the hospital, they're pretty confident he's not on his way to the hospital. they are on lockdown, not letting anybody in or in and out. but authorities around southeast wisconsin not seeing any information. and the fbi involved now as well. >> you may not know this but you were describing the potential of a dpestic dispute being involved in this. the woman that you were describing, do you know if she's one of those that was injured? >> that's a good question. no, we don't know that right now. what we know is one of the people who was injured is pregnant and she was shot in the neck. the only information we have from victims right now. again, this is a city of brookfield, west of milwaukee, a smaller city, relatively, and we're waiting to hear from the city's police chief. there are numerous media outlets on the scene. just of waiting a news conference, there's no indication when that may happen, if it may happen in the near future. >> a lot of uncertainty and fear surrounding where the shooter is because authorities are not releasing that information right now. >> nick iannelli from wtmj radio in milwaukee. we're covering a shooting at brookfield square mall at a spa adjacent to it. about 20 minutes west of milwaukee. it happened about three hours ago, seven people believed to be injured in this. four at the hospital, three more perhaps arriving soon. the hospital is on lockdown, they've cordoned off the mall and the spa. we are waiting for a news briefing from the chief of police. that is going to be happening, we'll go to it as soon as it happens. we also understand that froedtert hospital as i was mentioning earlier. they have no indication that the shotter is on his way to the hospital. the suspect, according to the latest information we is is an ethnic male, 270 pounds, bald, brown eyes, possibly driving a 2003 black mazda. that is the latest on the shooting there in wisconsin. we're going to stay on top of the story. as i mentioned "early today"ier, when the news briefing with the police chief happens we'll go straight there. for now we'll shift gears and move to political headlines for this day. to the president and governor romney. who are now mock debating in their respective camps today theext scheduled no public events, but they did make taped appearances on an nfl pre-game show. and they didn't talk about politics, they talked about the rookie quarterback for the washington redskins, robert griffin iii, known as rg3. >> rg3 hasn't been in washington very long, but he's created change. >> it's tough to a night this city over anything, i know. but rg3 makes it look easy. >> rg3 has struck a chord with sports fans, uniting democrats and republicans. >> he's a great young man, and a heck of a lot of fun to watch. and i wish him all the luck in the world except when he plays the bears. >> former sonoran mcgovern has died, served three terms in the senate. his most lasting impact may have come in the 1972 democratic presidential nominee. he lost 49 of 50 states to president nixon. many next-generation democrats, including president clinton say his anti-war, pro civil rights campaign inspired their interest in public service. former democratic senator george mcgovern, dead at 90. now to the white house, it is denying a "new york times" report about one-on-one talks with iran over its controversial nuclear program. it comes at a crucial time in the election. tomorrow is the final presidential debate focused on foreign policy. senator rob portman accused the administration of a leak. >> it's another example of a national security leak from the white house. they've done a lot of that. the other thing that gets interesting about the story, is if it's accurate, it sounds like the u.s. is taking a position that we're likely to jettison our allies. >> there are ongoing mul multilateral talks and potential separate bilateral efforts as described in the article that would short-circuit those in more than one way. >> well you know those bilateral talks, i'm sorry the multilateral talks, they call it the p-5 plus 1. the talks are going nowhere at this point. the sanctions are taking a bite out of iran. and a lot of people especially those in the administration, say that is what's driving iran away from the nuclear program no one disputes the fact that iran is enriching uranium. they say it's for energy purposes, for nuclear reactors. israel most famously the prime minister of israel got up before the united nations just last month with his red pen, drew the red line, drew international attention to the issue. but netanyahu trying to put pressure on the united states to get a little bit tougher with iran, to draw a red line, to make deadlines. so this is a very volume tiff issue. the white house says the story appearing in "the new york times" is flat-out not true. they say they're willing to silt down one-on-one with iran. but they say it's not true at this point. the story had negotiations. the deal between the united states and iran is those negotiations would happen after the election. you can bet that's going to be a political hot potato. not only tomorrow night, but over the course of the next two weeks, heading into november 6th. >> one of the criticisms is if this were to come to pass akoshding to the article. one-on-one talks would be seen as a reward for iran based on its famous brinksmanship here. pay off, basically this sort of bad boy attitude. if you will. >> that will be the criticism, i think you can expect, you've heard it from rob portman, also from mitt romney tomorrow night. they're going to cite the north korean president with very little doubt. because north korea has yanked the chain of the west and the united states in particular, over the course of the last 15 years with their program, on again, off again, reward, punishment kind of operation they have going on there. so i think it's going to be a very volume tiff issue at the top of the agenda tomorrow night. >> adding to the issue of benghazi, thank you so much. well mitt romney is preparing for the next debate. his running mate is cross crossing the swing states, a live report from the campaign trail. and later, why florida is so hard to predict in presidential elections. but first the latest presidential poll and could there would be a surprise? copd makes it hard to breathe, but with advair, i'm breathing better. so now i can be in the scene. advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory and a long-acting bronchodilator working together to help improve your lung function all day. advair won't replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than twice a day. people with copd taking advair may have a higher chance of pneumonia. advair may increase your risk of osteoporosis and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking advair. if you're still having difficulty breathing, ask your doctor if including advair could help improve your lung function. get your first full prescription free and save on refills at advaircopd.com. again we're watching the breaking story coming out of milwaukee, out of wisconsin. we'll continue to keep our eyes on that, we expect the press briefing from the police chief to start any moment. today the impact of the first three debates is more clear. in an nbc news/"wall street journal" poll with likely voters done entirely after last tuesday's town hall debate. president obama and mitt romney are now tied at 47% each. before the debate, president obama had a three-point lead over governor romney. joining us from washington is mark murray, senior political editor for nbc news. mark, good to see you. we might ask is this a clear shift in momentum? or is it a spike? >> there is definitely momentum on mitt romney's side. certainly since before the debate season. but i think we always knew this was going to be a very, very close election and the numbers reflect that what's more interesting is that right now you end up having republicans with the enthusiasm advantage. when you look at the total universe of registered voters, president obama has a five-point edge over president obama, 49% to 44%. when you narrow it down to likely voters it becomes tied. which shows you one that enthusiasm is on the republican side, but two, the more people who turn out, the potentially better it is for president obama and his chances. >> that's a shift, the enthusiasm gap and the enthusiasm shift. talk about when and what you found out in the poll and how women voters are looking at this? >> it's precisely the likely registered voter number is important to look at it when it comes to women voters and the gender gaxt among all registered voters, president obama ends up leading mitt romney 52% to 41%. when you narrow it down to likely voters, it's obama 51%, mitt romney 43%. an 11-point edge turns into an eight-point edge. that's the difference between president obama narrowly ahead versus the difference between a dead heat tied race. >> this as romney increases his advantage with men as well. as that constricts on the president with women and registered and likely voters. mark murray, thank you so much. still to come, for the obama campaign why it may be worth revisiting the bridge to the 21st century. and two pills. afternoon's overhaul starts with more pain. more pills. triple checking hydraulics. the evening brings more pain. so, back to more pills. almost done, when... hang on. stan's doctor recommended aleve. it can keep pain away all day with fewer pills than tylenol. this is rudy. who switched to aleve. and two pills for a day free of pain. ♪ and get the all day pain relief of aleve in liquid gels. that's a good 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[ dog barks ] because right after they get married, they'll find some retirement people who are paid on salary, not commission. they'll get straightforward guidance and be able to focus on other things, like each other, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. late sprint for voters is on. president obama later this week will hit six states in two days. the president will make stops in colorado, nevada, florida, virginia, illinois and ohio to meet undecided voters and volunteers. joining us is political reporter for the "associated press" and syndicated columnist, bob franken. beth i want to start with you, the latest data coming out of our nbc news/"wall street journal" poll. we were talking about this with mark murray. it was about men and how mitt romney is actually opened up the lead with men. and closed the gap with women. what do you think? >> well it's a big problem for the president if that's the case. basically president obama has to get a very big gap with women. advantage with women to win and we've seen it narrowing, we saw it narrowing after the first debate quite a bit. after the second debate, which everyone basically agreed he was much stronger than the first debate. everybody thought his base was going to be coming back to him. and the women are his base. >> 66% from 2008 is what the president had gotten. bob, when you look the the numbers, it's 47-47. this late in the race, the incumbent should be at 50 or more. >> one would think. i think that the point was made a few minutes ago that the momentum seems to have switched to mitt romney and that's probably been the case. this is going to be what is so remembered about this presidential election with that first debate. when mitt romney was able to score a victory. president obama sleep-talked through it. it's really going to come down, i think, however to election day. i think what's going to really be significant, this sounds like a cliche, you hear it all the time. is the get out the vote effort on both sides, i think both sides will be aggressive about transporting their supporters to the poll. i think it will be borderline dragging people out of their houses and maybe even a little bit of kidnapping involved. >> that's a way of putting all of that, the sleep-talking as well. beth to this on this, should chicago be worried when we look at this situation? >> sure, it's a very close race. they've said for the duration of the race it was going to be close. at this point, to him not to have gotten some sort of bounce back to where things were before the debates even started, where he looked to be ahead in most of the fundamental ways, he was a little bit ahead in the battlegrounds and ahead among women. everything seems to have seized up our tightened among wednesday. tomorrow night's debate is goinging to be about foreign policy. and what my friend bob said about taking people out to the polls on november 6th. a lot of voters in many states have started to vote. it's not just what happens on november 6th, it's a trend taking place over the course of several weeks with voters going early. >> that could be offset with the current numbers we're looking at. >> i want to talk a little about money. some are saying could be this the object surprise, what we're hearing is that campaign finance reportings showing in a stephen colbert super pac has $340 million sitting in the bank. what should he use that for? >> create a fund of pundits, he's going to use it for his own self-promotion. i suspect it's going to be something funny. one thing, if you don't mind, i wanted to talk about the upcoming debate about foreign policy. usually beth is right, that's not something that stirs the imagination. but we have some issues that are hot-button issues, we have libya and the story about the possible negotiations with iran. what's funny about that is that iran delights in affecting u.s. elections. if you go back to 1980, all of the movement on the iran hostage crisis to end it came up around the election. so i think that makes this debate more fascinating than it would usually be. >> thank you all and have a good sunday. still to come, the search for the big ideas on the campaign trail. will they come before election day? you're watching msnbc. 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[ male announcer ] one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn. satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. breaking news right now in wisconsin, brookfield, wisconsin, police on the scene of a shooting near a mall outside of milwaukee. as many as seven people may have been shot. the shooter is still reportedly on the loose. let's bring in mayor steven ponto of brookfield, wisconsin. mayor, what's the latest that you're hearing? >> well i talked to the police chief a few minutes ago. and i believe, the perpetrator is -- the hospital, brsh [ inaudible ] [ inaudible ] >> i get periodic updates. so right now, it's our understanding that the police are have not yet apprehended the suspect. >> what information do you have about the suspect? >> i understand he is from a nearby community and that this was apparently tied to a domestic issue. [ inaudible ] [ inaudible ] >> did sounds like we have some communication difficulties at the moment, mayor, if you can still hear me, if you can tell me the status of the hospital and the mall as well as the spa, in terms of lockdown, we had heard earlier from a spokesperson from the hospital, that that was on lockdown. can you give us the latest? >> it's my understanding that the hospital is on lockdown. and also that the mall is locked down now. this, the place where this occurred is the azana spa, across the street from the mall. that's a major route. it's mooreland road off the interstate and mooreland road has been closed. >> the road has been closed altogether. your city is about what, almost 40,000 people. >> that's correct. >> tell me about your police force and the resources you've had to respond to this. >> well, we have very, very capable police force. and haven't been limited -- [ inaudible ] [ inaudible ] [ inaudible ] [ inaudible ] >> mayor we're still having some communication difficulties. one last question for you, do you when we will have this briefing? we had heard that the briefing from the police chief was to start any moment. >> i had not heard anything more definitive. would say when they apprehend -- [ inaudible ] [ inaudible ] >> mayor stephen ponto, brookfield, wisconsin, thank you so much for your time today. i know we've had some communication difficulties, hopefully we can get you back later when the details do come out. we're waiting right now for a briefing from the police chief of brookfield on the latest. when that happens, we'll go to it. let's return to the politics as the nominees are preparing for monday's debate on foreign policy. "the new york times" is reporting there could be an agreement on nuclear talks with iran. the paper cites unnamed obama sources. this was romney's reaction on "meet the press." >> it sounds to me that it's another example of a national security leak from the white house. >> the white house has denied the "times" report. the story comes two weeks before election day and the day before the final presidential debate. joining us, democratic strategist hank shinekoff and republican strategist, joe watkins. is it true that the story breaks the day before the foreign policy debate. some might ask. >> iran has had a hand in certainly impacting american elections before. if you remember back to 1980, when jimmy carter was running for re-election. there were hostages that they had, didn't release them until after the election. ronald reagan was able to use that issue to help it get him elected as president of the united states. >> what's your thought here, hank. might this dominate the debate as joe was alluding to here come monday? or will been gasnghazi be a mai attack point? >> no question. the main thing was to get this out. so now the discussion will be about iran and the nuclear threat, rather than benghazi. >> you think that works to the advantage of the obama campaign? >> yes, it makes them look like they're trying to get piece as opposed to war. >> the domestic eye jend, i want to go to you, hank, rant communication strategy for the clinton re-election campaign in '96. when you think back to that, clinton made a very impassioned plea at the democratic national convention that year. i want to play a little bit of that. we don't have that sound. but he did at that time, discuss the future, the bridge to the future, does president obama project the same idea now? he had done it, many would say in 2008, but is he doing it right now? >> he did. and the momentum to make the argument was stopped in the first debate. once a president appears less than invincible, it gives the challenger to come shoulder to shoulder and people get to take a different look at the president at that point. >> joe, what do you think of that, the hope and change sort of idea that the president had put for the in 2008 and we can think of the lofty goals put out. in other elections previous to 2012. are we missing that? >> i think president obama was inspiring in 2008. one of the reasons why he won, he was able to encourage americans to believe that there could be hope for change. the change that he hoped for raent hasn't really happened. what he's nasing now is 23 million americans unemployed in a very, very sluggish economy, he's worked hard and try hard, he hasn't been able to figure out a way to get the economy reinvigorated. going forward he's going to need to defend it more. and mitt romney is going to have to explain he can do the same thing for america that he did in massachusetts. without racing taxes and pull people back to work. >> i don't think the president has to defend it all all. the issue is eti ining romney o arguments of the that's different. >> well if the president had a plan to put people back to work, i think people would be eager to hear. lots of americans love the president. but what they also love is the ability to provide for their families. they're willing to listen to any candidate who cut them back to work and save this economy. >> president will back to a popular start. that will put ronny on the defensive and help win the election. >> that will be the debate as we go forward in the final 16 days, appreciate your time. first finding the purple people, we're going to tell you why they make florida one of the most unpredictable swing states. welcome aboard! 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[ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biolog medicine prescribed by rheumatologists. a short word that's a tall order. up your game. up the ante. and if you stumble, you get back up. up isn't easy, and we ought to know. we're in the business of up. everyday delta flies a quarter of million people while investing billions improving everything from booking to baggage claim. we're raising the bar on flying and tomorrow we will up it yet again. we're still awaiting an update out of milwaukee. coming out of a town outside of milwaukee in a shooting where seven have been injured. when it happens, we'll get straight to it. when it comes to presidential elections there's one state that's been seared into the u.s. consciousness. florida. who can forget the image of nbc's tim russert on election night in 2000. with his white board that red florida, florida, florida. and today, the latest polls from florida show president obama and mitt romney within one to three percentage points of each other. nbc's mark potter is live in tampa with more on the importance of the sunshine state and the purple people there. >> all of whom are very important, richard. every four years, this state, florida, gets a lot of respect because of its role as a political king-maker. this year, the presidential and vice presidential candidates have been all over this state. trying to do the hard work of trying to win in this diverse and huge swing state. >> around the country, florida is seen as america's playground. where tourists come to escape their problems back home for a while. but with almost 19 million residents and 29 electoral votes in a winner take all election. florida is also a political powerhouse, a swing state. courted heavily by the presidential candidates. although it can be hard to plan a campaign here. >> it's very difficult. the most complex state in the country. to figure out how to reach all of these various demographics. >> because sun-baked florida is so diverse, home to transplants from around the country and the world, it's neither a traditional red nor blue state. >> we are purple. we are a purposele state, which means we cannot be relied upon. it cannot be taken for granted that florida is going to be going one way or the other. >> we kind of gather up all the different nationalities. >> i believe the hispanic vote will play a critical role for florida and for this election. >> another example of that florida divide is at the top of the morgan and morgan law firm in orlando. john morgan, a passionate democrat has raised lots of money for president obama. >> i believe that this president is going to raise the middle class up. >> his wife of 30 years, altima morgan is a registered republican. who considers herself an independent with strong views on the right to life. >> for my perspective, i think the balance of the supreme court is one of the preeminent issues as far as i'm concerned. >> both believe democrats and republicans should work together, like they do. living in the famous interstate 4 corridor. a politically independent swing zone connecting tampa, orlando and daytona beach. the area around i-4 has such rich diversity, racially, economically, geographically and in terms of background that many say it mirrors the entire country. and is up for grabs politically. >> there are also different rules -- >> a political prize here, lots of seniors. many of whom worry about medicare. others fear overspending and taxation. >> we've been through wars, we've been through depression and so we do speak with a little experience. >> there's lots of us here. so if we decide what we want and go vote, we make a big difference. >> so it's no surprise here that in this most pumple swing state, the polls show the presidential race is very close. the candidates essentially neck and neck, richard? >> mark potter in florida. tampa florida, thank you so much. still to come, the man whose presidential campaign got bill and hillary clinton involved in politics is dead at the age of 90. this is msnbc. is? every room deserves to look great. and every footstep should tell us we made the right decision. so when we can feel our way through the newest, softest, and most colorful options... ...across every possible price range... ...our budgets won't be picking the style. we will. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. right now get $37 basic installation on all special order carpet. i'm done! [ chuckles ] sweet [ female announcer ] swiffer's wet mopping cloths can clean better than mops in half the time swiffer. better clean in half the time. or your money back. four hours ago this is the aftermath of a shooting the at a town outside of milwaukee, wisconsin. we are waiting for a press briefing from the police chief. that's about to start. when it happens, we're going to go straight to it. we spoke with the mayor there of brookfield, which has 38,000 people. the hospital as well as the shopping mall across the spa where this incident happened at, on lockdown. the suspect not apprehended. we remain for those details. when it does happen, we'll get straight to. now sad news to pass along. one-time democratic presidential nominee george mcgovern died in morning at the age of 90. the former senator and outspoken opponent of the u.s. involvement in the vietnam war passed away due to natural causes. he lost the presidential election to richard nixon. his anti-war, anti-poverty views helped inspire a new generation of democrats. former president bill clinton and secretary of state hillary clinton wrote this. quote, we first met george while campaigning for him in 1972. our friendship endured for years. he was most committed to feeding the hungry at home and around the world. we must continue to draw inspiration from his example and build the world he fought for, end quote. for more on the life and legacy of former senator george mcgovern, here's nbc's john yang. >> come home, america. come home to the affirmation that we have a dream. >> in 1972 with the nation bitterly divided by the vietnam war, george mcgovern accepted the democratic presidential nomination. his grassroots campaign had taken over the party, ending the control of back room bszs and forever changing presidential politics. he went on to one of the biggest losses in history. the son of a methodist minister, he grew up in the depression dust bowl era of south dakota. in world war ii, he was a b-24 pilot, award the distinguished flying cross after safely landing his aircraft. he returned to south dakota and became a political science professor. mcgovern was elected to the house in 1956, upsetting a four-term republican. six years later, he was elected to the senate. >> nbc's john yang with that report for us. straight to brookfield, wisconsin. police chief daniel tosshouse in a press briefing. >> we do have police on scene, yeah. >> have you found anymore there? is there anyone in the home? >> i can't comment on that. i don't know. >> have you made any arrests? >> i'm not aware, no. no arrests have been made. >> is there information about a vehicle? >> no. >> do you know the vehicle he was in? >> no. >> any concerns about explosives at the scene? >> we do have milwaukee bomb squad on scene to take care of any devices. >> is that routine? >> no, it's not routine. >> you're concerned there might be explosives. >> exactly. >> in the spa? >> i can't comment on anything else because i don't have knowledge of what devices -- >> do you have the description of him, how tall he is? >> let me see here. i don't have that. i'm sorry. >> lieutenant, what can you tell us about the status of the victims? >> i can't. >> can you talk about the mall being open still? >> i don't have any knowledge of that either. >> what can you say to the people in the neighborhoods where these scenes are unfolding? >> if they see this person, call 911. >> thank you, lieutenant. >> all right. steve and shelly, i don't know if you're able to see that photo. it's pretty hard. okay. that is the photo. that is the photo that they are showing. >> all right. we're looking at live pictures from the press briefing. there's a shot there, a picture of the suspect that the lieutenant released at the top of the briefing. the first two minutes that we had just missed when we went to the lieutenant who was speaking there, not the police chief. again, the name that has been released is radcliffe hawkton. that suspect, 270 pounds, as you see there, bald, brown eyes, and what we have also learned is that he is possibly driving a 2003 black mazda. that picture, again, just coming to us live there from brookfield, wisconsin. the name that was provided by the police has been radcliffe hawkton, age 45. they have not apprehended the suspect as of yet. that shooting there in brookfield happening about four hours ago. seven people believed to be injured. the hospital and the shopping mall across the street from the spa -- the spa is where the shooting had happened at. all on lockdown, still according to the mayor there of brookfield, which has 38,000 people. there were some explosive devices, improvised explosive devices. we had heard from wtmj radio they were also investigating. that's the very latest. we have that picture to show you there coming out of brookfield. when we get more information, we'll have it for you here on msnbc. now with a fancy coating that gives you a burst of wildberry flavor. now why make a flavored heartburn pill? 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[ male announcer ] one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn. satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. we start this hour with breaking news from wisconsin where a mass shooting at a spa has sent a nearby shopping mall into lockdown. we are about four hours into this. we're getting the latest results. it's still very fluid. police have just identified the gunman as 45-year-old radcliffe hawkton from brown deer, wisconsin. the shooting occurred at a day spa about 20 minutes west of milwaukee. there are reports of as many as seven people being shot. the gunman is still at large, and we should note the shooting occurred in the district next to wisconsin congressman paul ryan's. the congressman has been made aware of that situation. for the latest, we go to sarah mallard from patch.com. we just got the information on the suspect who we understand to be radcliffe haughton, 45 years old, bald with brown eye, and possibly driving a black mazda, early 2000 model. what do you know about this suspect? >> we're still learning a lot of details, but one of the employees at the spa where the shooting occurred told us that he's the estranged h ed husband the hairstylist that works there. they've apparently been having some difficulties in their marriage. she may have fiemdled a restraig order against him this week. apparently there's been some problems at the business involving this man. the employee told us that he -- they believe he slashed the tires in the parking lot of the spa, and they've been warning employees to keep the business doors locked because of the situation. >> do you know how long this has been happening? do you know the duration of these difficulties you're describing to us? >> i do not know how long they've been having the marital problems. you know, it's -- the restraining order was filed in the court system -- or there's a hearing for the court system on the 18th. that's just a few days ago that this has been going on in the court system. it was actually filed on october 8th. the restraining order was granted on the 18th. so it's pretty recent it's been in the court system. >> we're also getting reports about the search for some sort of improvised explosive device. we're just getting information that they found something to that effect right outside the spa. what do you know, and what have you heard about this? >> i've heard unconfirmed reports that there was an explosive device there, and i've heard it was -- that they have detonated it. i don't know what the full details of that, and i haven't got that officially confirmed about what exactly happened with the the explosive device. i heard the milwaukee county bomb squad had responded to the scene as well as atf. >> we also are getting a report from our pete williams at nbc news. he was saying at the request of the local police department, who we just heard from a moment ago, the fbi is also getting involved in this. they have a tactical team and hostage negotiators as well. no federal crime scene at this point. it is strictly in support of the local police department. the town, this area, 38,000 people. it happened at 11:00 a.m. local time there. what is this area like? >> brookfield is an affluential city. the population there, they pride themself on being from brookfield. it's more of a ritzy area, to be honest. it's surprising that it happened here, but we've had situations like this before in this town. in 2005, there was a mass shooting at a church down the street from where this one happened. it's shocking that it happened in this community, but it's not an isolated incident in this community. >> unfortunately. the hospital is on lockdown. i was mentioning that earlier. how far is that, and have you any information about what the status of the victims are? >> i don't have any updated information on the status of the victims. i believe four of them had n nonlife-threatening injuries. the hospital is only about 10, 15 minutes from where the shooting occurred. it's right off the freeway as well as the location of the shooting is near the freeway. it's a quick trip to the hospital, but i'm not sure on the full details about what's happening with those victims. >> again, we have a picture on the screen right now of the suspect that the police have just given that photo out moments ago during a press briefing. 270 pounds, bald, brown eyes, possibly driving a 2003 black mazda. they've been unable to, at this moment, apprehend him. the name provided, radcliffe haughton, 45 years old. when we look at the police department and what their next steps might be, from whom you've been able to speak to, what are you learning we haven't discussed yet? >> you know, i've pretty much shared everything i know. i don't know anything else about what the next steps are. i know they have a tactical unit on scene. i'm not sure what's happening with the unit and what their next steps are. >> and this part of town, is it right downtown? >> no, it's more of a business district. there's a mall across the street from the spa. so it's more commercial, shopping developments in that area. there's a mcdonald's right next to the spa. it's a very close access to the freeway. there's a lot of hotels in the area. just a very busy main stretch of the city. >> okay. thank you so much, sarah mallard, who is with patch.com. thank you so much for the very latest. if you're just joining us, again, we're giving you the very latest information coming out of brookfield, wisconsin. it's a town about 20 minutes outside of milwaukee. about 38,000 people large. what we understand is that there were seven people involved and injured in this. the suspect, we just got some information on that within the last 15 minutes. 45 years old. here you see him. his name, radcliffe haughton. joining us right now is a former fbi profiler. we have some information here, clint, according to the reports from wtmj. this may have involved a domestic dispute. >> well, this is something we talked about when this first broke, richard. there's a strong probability that took him to that location at the time. as you know, the information suggests that his wife had filed for a divorce and that she'd gotten a restraining order against him. should that be the case, we know historically the most critical time, the most dangerous time for someone when you get a restraining order is when the order is first issued and when the potential offender is first brought to court. so there's nothing outside of the statistics here. the terrible fact is he did act out, that this individual is alleged to be the shooter who has shot seven people. we don't know what the situation is with his wife. we also know authorities suggest they found some type of ied, some type of improvised explosive device that was connected to or was nearby a propane tank. so whether that was intentional on his part to be the second part of his attack or whether it was a diversion, that's still to be seen. we know right now the shooter is on the street somewhere, and the authorities will be doing everything they can looking at his life and the last 30 days, seeing what connections he has to the community, and where he might run and hide. >> we're four hours in right now, clint. you've been through this before. what is the process that investigators are going through at this moment? >> number one, they're obviously securing the scene. with the realization there's a potential explosive device, of course, this takes us back to the shooting at the colorado movie theater where that shooter's apartment was booby trapped with explosive devices too. authorities are going to have to move with even more caution than they would normally. any residence that he has access to, if this ied is real, could also be booby trapped. they'll be doing everything they can to track him. someone like this may have jumped in a vehicle and just headed out of the area. he may have had a low-cost motel, a hotel, or a friend's residence or something where he would be hiding. so right now the authorities will try to throw a dragnet over this entire area, and as they draw it tight, they'll be looking at every place he could have gone, tracking any type of credit cards, financial records, gas purchases. this is a real fugitive hunt that's going on. unfortunately, this guy presents a tremendous threat to others. >> as an fbi profiler, would you be concerned? because we have heard from the hospital there, where at the time when we spoke with their spokesperson, that four victims were brought to that location. one of which, and we don't know the answer to this yet because as we've been discussing, it's still fluid and early, the woman that may have been involved with this suspect, was she one of the victims? if she were, were they brought to that hospital? are there concerns that the suspect might go to that location? >> i think there might be. that might be one of the reasons she might be taken to another location. we know someone like this, if he's in a vehicle, he'll be listening to the local radio. if she's some place where he can can get access to local television, he'll be watching. he'll be trying to gain any type of information he can whatsoever on the authorities' attempts to track him down and on the location of his victim if he is just so caught up in anger, frustration, and rage that he would do something crazy for the second time, which would be go after her. now, the authorities, wherever she's being cared for, are in a position to make sure he can't do that. again, we don't know what's going on in this man's mind except he's very dangerous. >> again, we don't know if she's one of the victims. finally, before we let you go, the fbi's involved. they have a tactical team, hostage negotiators. what do you make of that? >> one of the things they'll be doing is trying to provide not only state-wide, but nation-wide resources. you know, my background, too, is both as a profiler and a hostage negotiator. so if they find him some place barricaded in the location or in worse case scenario, perhaps holding somebody hostage, they want to be able to have every potential resource on hand to give him the opportunity to end this without anyone else being seriously hurt, including himself. >> clint van zandt, always a pleasure getting your expertise. former fbi profiler and hostage negotiator. thank you so much. we'll continue to watch what is happening out of brookfield, wisconsin. again, as i was mentioning, we're about 4 hours and 15 minutes into this. the suspect still at large. they have not apprehended him. when we get more information, we'll have it for you right here on msnbc. we're going to move to politics now. here are the headlines. both the president and governor romney mock debating in their respective camps today. they've scheduled no public events. mr. romney is doing his debate prep in florida. he did find some time today to stop by a beach football game between members of the press and members of the campaign staff. he conducted the coin toss and gave his side some words of pregame encouragement. >> figure out which of their players is best and take them out early. >> peter robinson, i got him. >> that's right. don't worry about injuries, guys. this counts. win. >> here we go. >> clear eyes, full heart. can't lose! >> the weather looks great. so how is mitt romney spending his final hours preparing for some's all-important debate outside of that football game? garrett hake is at debate site. what's the atmosphere like around there? obviously they're having fun too. >> good afternoon, richard. they certainly are. things are much looser earlier in the day, but i can tell you now that governor romney has done a full debate prep session this afternoon. they wanted to make this as close to the real thing as possible. the campaign built a stage. they had a table onset just like the one that will be used in the debate here at the site behind me. in fact, they went so far as to have the man playing the moderator who's a senior adviser to the campaign wear some purple sock. they're trying to get things right down to the moment here. >> all right, garrett haake, thank you so much. we're there following the romney campaign as they prepare for the debate. coming up, what's the obama camp's big vision for next term? we'll ask the campaign communications director. the sniping continues between the two presidential campaigns as we close in on election day. take a look at mitt romney and marco rubio reacting this morning to comments as of late. >> if you say women should have access to contraceptive care but you support legislation that would let your employer deny you cont contraceptive care, you might have a case of romnesia. >> your response? >> that fires up his base, folks that aren't going to vote for him any way. for the rest of americans that are trying to make up their minds, they're wondering, that's cute, but what are you going to do for the future? >> here to give me the response is brett colburn. what's your thought here? they're calling the campaign, your campaign, cute. >> sure. well, thanks, richard, first of all, for having me on. second, i think we've seen a pattern out of the romney campaign that when there's substance they need to talk about, that they need to clarify things on for the american people, they choose to attack a different piece of what's happening instead of addressing that substance. we saw this during the debates when paul ryan had a bad debate. instead of talking about the issues he was unclear on and being clear about their positions with the american people, you saw them attack the vice president for smiling too much. in the last debate, it was the moderator's fault. now you're seeing a commentary on the president using a little levity to make an incredibly serious point. that's that mitt romney is trying to hide his positions that he knows would have a negative impact on the middle class and most americans. he's hiding it because he wants to close out this deal. i guess my question back to the entire romney campaign is, with are you going to actually talk about the substantive issues that the president brought up with the whole romnesia bit? >> and their response would be, why aren't we talking about these big issues? i want to get to the issues. you brought that up. here's what president obama said he needs to do. take a listen. >> that's why i'm asking you for your vote. i believe in you. i need you to keep believing in me. i want to finish the job. >> okay. so he wants to finish the job. let's just say you're part way through this arc, the arc the president laid out in 2008. the reality may be you're trying to finish what you started, but is that a winning strategy? do voters want to hear that? >> look, just to take a step backwards for a minute to the first topic, these are big issues he was talking about during the speech on friday. they're big issues that the romney campaign has failed to have answers on. it is a big issue to voters in the middle class how you're going to give a $5 trillion tax cut to the richest americans and pay for it without saddling the middle class with more debt or exploding the deficit. it's a big issue to people when the other side, the romney ca campaign, can't say where they stand on issues like equal pay. i think if we can get substantive answers for them, we'll be better off. >> back to the arc. rng >> absolutely. in terms of where we're going and where we've been, the president believes we need to build off the progress of the last four years, particularly the last 31 months as we've moved out of this recession. we have a very clear plan to move the country forward. he's talked about it consistently through this campaign. he talked about it in charlotte. >> is that the winning approach? will that get the undecideds off the center here? >> i think so. people have lived through these last four years along with the president. they understand what he inherited. they understand the progress we've made. they understand we need to continue to build forward. my question again for the republicans would be, will you come to the table and actually work with us to make these things happen? we've seen progress. we need more progress. if we could get a little cooperation in congress we could see even more progress when it comes to things like putting teachers back in the classroom, putting cops and firefighters on the streets. these are serious issues. the president has a serious plan to move us forward. as he said, mitt romney has a one-point plan. that's to go back to the same economic policies that created this mess, by giving tax cuts to the wealthiest and hoping there's a different outcome this time. we've seen the results. it doesn't work. >> seen your communications director brent colburn, thank you so much today. >> absolutely. thank you, richard. >> we've got to name this condition he's going through. i think it's called romnesia. >> the president has a new term. he calls it romnesia. >> we don't have to collect a bunch of binders to find kwal t -- qualified, talented young women. >> so far he wants to get rid of planned parenthood and big bird. >> all right. romnesia is the newest word on the street. we're hearing a lot of it on the campaign trail and web. from big bird to binders full of women, the smallest gaffe could spread like wildfire in this first ever meam election. the catch phrases may get the base excited, but is it reaching the undecideds. thank you for being here on sunday. does this work? >> i think so. what we saw in the binders full of women comment is something the public immediately responded to. a quarter of a million people joined a group for it on facebook before the debate even ended. number one, it takes a little power away from big media people like you who get to decide what the big moments are in the debate. >> we just report. >> right, but even the reporting. no matter what we say when we're here on tv, we have extra influence. social media is balancing that out. number two, it really gives people a chance to have a moment stick in their mind. the funny thing -- >> a touch point. >> right. the funny thing i point out in the article is mitt romney was actually saying something most people think is good, which is you should look at people's backgrounds and try to make sure that you have a diverse cabinet, right? that's something that the last president and the current president agree on. the way he said it, though, came off so awkwardly that it sort of exploded online. that's the bottom upside. the flipside is you have the candidates trying to push it down with their own catch phrases. >> does this take away from those big ideas? you know, sunrise in america, morning in america, excuse me. those big, big ideas. we're talking about these very small, little catch phrases, if you will. the question might be, is it presidential? >> i think it may not be presidential. i think to your critique sort of embedded in the question, it is problematic, right? if you look at the republican convention, whether you like what you heard or not, there was a lot of big ideas there about the economy, about the role of government, about whether the government should be involved in health care. the important questions, especially during a recession. what came out of it? a whole lot of eastwood, which was people yelling at an empty chair. that was partly the republicans' fault because they gave a prime speaking spot to eastwood. if we're going to be fair, it's a little our fault. so many in the public and press got something exci-- excited ab something funny. >> all right. appreciate it. up next, a candidate who wants to make history in the senate. she joins us after the break. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics. copd makes it hard to breathe, but with advair, i'm breathing better. so now i can be in the scene. advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory and a long-acting bronchodilator working together to help improve your lung function all day. advair won't replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than twice a day. people with copd taking advair may have a higher chance of pneumonia. advair may increase your risk of osteoporosis and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking advair. if you're still having difficulty breathing, ask your doctor if including advair could help improve your lung function. get your first full prescription free and save on refills at advaircopd.com. it took 19 8 years for the first and only minority woman to get elected to the senate back in 1992. 20 years later, that could all change if hawaii congresswoman mazy hirono is elected. there are currently 17 women serving in the senate out of 100 overall senators. joining us now is hawaii congressman mazie hirono. the democratic poll shows you are leading former governor linda lingle. when you look at this right now, the chance to make history, is it a pressure or a motivator to you? for that matter, does this historical relevance resonate with voters at the moment? >> richard, first of all, aloha to everyone out there. it's been an amazing journey for me to run for this seat because when i was growing up as a little girl in japan, my mother endured a terrible marriage at the hands of an abusive husband, and that was my father. she determined early to get us away from him and his family so we could have a chance at a better life. so just before i was 8 years old, we boarded the uss president cleveland. we literally escaped to the haven of america. those early years are really tough for my mom. she raised three kids by herself. there was no job security. there was no health care. so i know what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck, but i also know that one person can make a difference because my mother totally changed my life. >> do you think, representative, that this story will resonate, you being only the second minority woman in the senate? does that resonate with the voters? did they follow that story for you in hawaii? >> yes, they do. there are a lot of families all across our country, and in hawaii, who are struggling in these tough economic times. so they know that i stand with them. that's a very important connection that i understand what the families are going through. this is why it's been an amazing journey for me. running for this seat, who would have thought it? i certainly didn't when i got off that ship. >> let me ask you this. right now there are 24 women of color in the house out of the 90 women that are there. you're one of them. women represent just 4.5% of the entire congress, which is about half of what they represent in the u.s. population. of those 24 minority women, 13 are african-american, 4 are asian-pacific islander, and 7 are latina. very underrepresented. why do you think this is so? >> that's because we need to be in the pipeline. this is why i am really happy that there are 30 apia candidates now, asia-pacific island every -- islander candidates running for office. we don't have any minority women in the u.s. senate at the moment. so our -- go ahead. >> if you are elected, you go to the senate, what will you do to make things different? at moment, historical lows in terms of satisfaction from american when is they look at congress. single digits in some cases. >> the great thing is that in this election there are more democratic women running for the u.s. senate than in the history of our country. we call ourselves the five challengers. when we get elected by working hard, we will be the first woman senator from each of our respective states. i'm talking about hawaii, massachusetts, north dakota, wisconsin, and nevada. believe me, when you have women sitting at the table with our diverse experiences, we work in a different way. but that speaks to the need for minority representation all across the board. what i would do, of course, is to encourage minorities to run for office at all levels. >> congresswoman mazie hirono, thank you for stopping by. >> thank you. want to go straight to breaking news. brookfield, wisconsin, the chief of police speaking. >> our thoughts and prayers go out to the victims of this crime. right now i'll give you an overview of what took place. at approximately 11:09 this morning we received a call of a shooting in progress at a salon, 200 north mooreland road in the city of brookfield. we're told a male suspect was involved. that male suspect has been identified. you all have pictures currently of mr. radcliffe franklin haughton. date of birth, 12/17/66. he's a male, black, 6'1", 270 pounds. the time of the shooting, the suspect was wearing a grey sweater, blue jeans, and had a white and black backpack with him. the vehicle that we are looking for has been located. we are no longer looking for the black mazda protege. that vehicle has been located not in the city of brookfield. as already has been reported, the suspect is from brown deer. this situation is fluid and ongoing. our initial attention was reaching, locating, and treating the victims. that has taken place. we have a total of seven victims, four were transported. we believe we have three deceased. none of those people or any of the victims are being identified at this time for obvious reasons. the investigation is fluid and ongoing. we have a number of scenes being worked on as we speak. not only the salon, but the suspect's residence in brown deer and others. our entire operation now is focused on locating the suspect. i will tell you that we are currently still searching a portion of the salon. we have a number of s.w.a.t. teams doing that right now. there's a portion of the salon that has not been cleared. we are in the process of doing that right now. i can also tell you that in the process of clearing that building, we believe we have identified what is being described as an improvised explosive device, which is also hampering our clearing of that building. i believe the city of milwaukee bomb squad is here and is assisting us in that endeavor. i have no other information for you at this time. i am not going to take any questions, as this is a continuing, fluid, ongoing investigation. i want to make sure the information i give you is accurate and complete and i'm not up here guessing for you. so again, thank you for your indulgence. if we have anything else earth shattering for you before 6:30, we'll let you know that. otherwise, we'll be happy to see you at 6:30 at the public safety building. >> are you looking for another car now? >> no, we are not. thank you. >> 3:35 local time. the police chief, what we learned new from what he said is he is confirming three have died after the shooting. this after initial reports were saying a total of seven were shot. he is confirming that three are deceased at the moment. what we also learned is they are still searching a portion of that spa where the shooting took place and that because of an ied, as you heard, it's hampering the clearing of that building and the suspect, radcliffe haughton, is still at large. they do not know -- they have not apprehended him at the moment. so that is the very latest coming out of brookfield, wisconsin. 6:30 local time, 7:30 eastern is when they will have another update confirmed at least at this moment. we're going to take a quick break and be right back. but i'm still stubbed up. 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[ female announcer ] people who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who don't. multigrain cheerios we've been hearing zingers and catch phrases from both campaign, but what happened to the big ideas? let's bring in our brain trust panel for this sunday. jonathan altern, ed o'keefe, and peter sutterman. i want to start by playing a clip of john f. kennedy and ronald reagan accepting their party's nomination. let's talk on the other side of this. >> a new frontier is here whether we seek it or not. it would be easier to shrink from that new frontier, to look to the safe mediocrity of the past, to be loud by high rhetoric. those who prefer that cost should not vote for me or the democratic party. >> they say the united states has had its day in the sun, but our nation is past its zenith. they expect you to tell your children that the american people no longer have the will to cope with their problems, that the future will be one of sacrifice and few opportunities. my fellow citizens, i utterly reject that view. >> so jonathan, big ideas, big emotion hitting voters hard. do we have that this year? >> no, and you often don't have it in a re-elect. ronald reagan didn't really have it when he ran for re-election in 1984. it's uncommon to have that sort of aspirational campaign in what they call a re-elect year. but i do think that there is not enough attention paid to the fact that the obama record is one of achievement. it's interesting watching john f. kennedy because if you look at his record in terms of getting bills through congress or bill clinton's record in terms of getting bills through congress, changing people's lives, very small compared to the obama accomplishments. you might not like them, if you're against, you know, obamacare. >> those issues, right. >> but these are big changes on the scale of lyndon johnson's changes. >> well, to you, peter, you've written on this idea of the president coming into washington, d.c. to change politics. he's gotten some big things done, according to what jonathan's telling us. >> certainly i think obama's first term was packed full of very big legislation, whether you like it or not. but what obama wasn't able to do in his first term was one of his biggest promises, live up to the biggest promise he made, which is he would change the way washington worked, he would change the tone, he would change, you know, the way the parties worked together. that was a big part of what made obama such a sensation in 2008. instead, polarization has gotten worse. really, washington has gotten more dysfunctional. the other part of this is that we're not hearing big ideas because the budget -- the budget situation is so bad and is so constraining that the candidates really aren't going to be able to do a lot over the next four years. they're not going to be able to promise things to people. you know, obama did have a very legislation-packed first four years, but he's not going to do much other than defend that record, defend that legislation in a second term. >> ed, do we need to have this big idea, this aspirational campaign that jonathan was talking about that we're not seeing so far, or is this meme election what's going to work? >> no, i think we need to have a discussion about big ideas. i think the big idea right now is how do you deal with those fiscal issues? we haven't had any discussion about this during the debates. a week after election day, congress is coming back to washington. the one and only thing they have to worry about is, how do we sort out the automatic budget cuts? do we renew tax cuts set to expire? all these decisions have huge effects on the economy in the coming months and years. there's been virtually no discussion about it. all of it is, well, let's wait and see who wins. we don't even know which of the two candidates might specifically consider doing if they are to win the white house. real devoid of that. voters across the country have said they're very frustrated by. >> stand by. we're going to have to take a break. up next who will win the hearts and minds of voters? that's coming up. 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[ male announcer ] one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn. satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. with the fact we don't know the difference between these two candidates. i think it's extremely clear what the difference is. president obama believes we need a combination of budget cuts and revenue increases at the top end. mitt romney belongs to a political party that rejects those revenue increases. he actually raised his hand when asked during the primaries and said he would object even to a ten to one ratio of spending cuts to tax increases. that was an iconic moment in this campaign. so i think we have a very good sense on how they will deal with getting to those 4 trillion deficit reductions. >> an important issue, but does it inspire? >> it doesn't inspire, but again, if you look at what their positions add up to, i do think that obama's focus on education, on more student loans, this kind of thing, more investment in research, is a little more inspirational in terms of investing in the future of the country, investing in the greatness of america. >> that's a story that touches people. >> more tax cuts, which did not work in the last ten years, combined with more extraction of fossil fuels. >> peter, you suggest there's a shift in president obama's narrative. his shift in his narrative, is this towards the space we're talking about? >> i think that what obama has done is really pulled back on the big, inspirational rhetoric and instead decided to make a lot of this campaign about defending his first-term accomplishments and hoping that enough people like those first-term accomplishments that they will vote, you know, in favor of them to keep them. really, what romney is running on is a platform of i will undo president obama's first term. i'm going to get rid of dodd frank, get rid of obamacare. we're not going to do anymore stimulus. whereas, what president obama is running son you get to keep my first term. that's really a big shift from what you saw in the 2008 election where obama was running, you know, this sort of epic, literary, historic, grandiose campaign and promising something that i don't think he actually delivered on despite his large and significant legislative achievements. >> ed, to what peter was bringing up there, if it worked in '08, why not continue? that inspirationinspirational, and change. >> i had a conversation with a florida republican yesterday who said, if you look at this year's race and the tone and the strategy that the president is employing and go back eight years to when george w. bush was running for his re-election and running against a guy from massachusetts, what was bush doing to carry? he was trying to turn him into something -- give him a negative perception in the mind of voters and really focus on putting down his competition. this republican said the president is doing the same exact thing to mitt romney, and it may just work. it may result in pretty close midterm re-election campaign where the president ultimately prevails by mostly beating up his opponent and not necessarily focusing on the next four years. it may be chicago and the obama campaign has gambled. let's merely turn the competition into a caricature. >> that's a model they're explicitly following. another comparison, you were speaking earlier about changing the tone, that phrase originates with george w. bush in 2000. he said he was going to change the tone. he failed to do that in his first four years and ran for re-election on other issues. >> great discussion, guys. love the topic. >> that just goes to show how difficult it is to do and the limits of presidential power when it comes to that. >> all right. we got to cut it off there. stand by. when we come back, our brain trust will give us a sneak peek to tomorrow's debate. stick with us. 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[ male announcer ] so you can save the day, not worry about falling asleep. ♪ just begin with america's favorite soups. bring out chicken broccoli alfredo. or best-ever meatloaf. go to campbellskitchen.com for recipes, plus a valuable coupon. campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do. all right. we've got our brain trust panel. they're back for the last time today. we're going to start off with you, jonathan. what's the headline on tuesday morning? >> well -- >> after the debate. >> it's awfully hard to predict what will happen, but i think some of the fireworks might come down to when romney goes hard on obama on iran, on talking to iran. there's this story in "the new york times," there are going to be negotiations with iran. when romney hits hard on that, you can expect obama to counter with, what are you talking about? do you want to have a war? we've had a lot of war in that region. do we really want to take this country to war again? and for obama to essentially play the peace card. i think that's part of what you'll see in that coverage on tuesday. >> all right. that's your tuesday headline. over to you, ed. what's the headline in "the washington post" tuesday morning? >> i don't like to predict either, but we'll play it down the middle. "obama, romney spar over libya, iran, and china." i think a more interesting conversation that would be china. not necessarily the outsourcie ing part, but how does the united states plan to work with that country? might make for an interesting conversation. >> they're also going through an economic revolution. >> that too. i think jonathan is right. iran will be the main focus. >> peter, to you. >> i think our headline is going to be "where is the anti-war candidate, and why has president obama chosen to basically run the bush playbook when it comes to civil libertieliberties?" it's going to be hard to find a difference between obama and romney in a lot of ways. guantanamo, indefinite detention, warrantless wiretapping, drone strikes in particular. i'd like to see a pretty rous debate over that tomorrow night. >> okay. peter, thank you so much. jonathan and ed, have a great sunday. >> thanks, richard. before we go, we want to update you on the break news out of wisconsin. police say a dunman opened fire at a day spa earlier today killing three people and leving four others injured. that gunman has been identified as 45-year-old radcliffe haughton of nearby brown deer, wisconsin. he's still at large and considered very dangerous. police said they have found some kind of explosive device inside or around the day spa where this happened. the bomb squad is on the scene. again, three people killed in a shooting at a day spa in the milwaukee suburb of brookfield. we'll be following that story. keep it right here on msnbc for more throughout the evening on this breaking story. you have a very good sunday. thank you for spending your time with us today. 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