ready to give away too much in talks with republicans? some democrats worry the president will give away the store on medicare, medicaid and social security without getting much in return. are they right? could he get a better deal? could he avoid default? right off the cliff. are republicans so terrified of the tea party, they're willing to tank the economy in order to avoid a challenge from the right? we'll debate that one. the news of the world scandal is a political scandal former senior aide to britain's prime minister david cameron has been arrested in a growing scandal involving phone hacking and corruption. finally, let me finish with the space shuttle launch today and the wondrous pioneering president jack kennedy once championed. we start with the jobs numbers. david corn, msnbc political analyst. michael steele is the former chairman of the republican national committee. now an msnbc political analyst. did you hear the glee, the giggles of delight on your side of the aisle? michele bachmann said she hopes the bad numbers help her. >> no, no. >> she said that. >> i know what she said. let's just get serious for a moment. you had 18,000 jobs created last month. the 54,000 for may was the revised down to 25,000. the reality of it is americans are still hurting and both the administration and members of congress and the republican leadership, in particular, we can't paint specifically on job creation, need to get serious about this. all the talk about the debt and all the dancing belies -- >> you think the debt is an important issue? >> the debt is an important issue. in the context of job creation, it all has to work together. you cannot do it in isolation. >> let's take a look. here's the aforementioned u.s. congresswoman michele bachmann on cnbc today on the jobs numbers. let's listen to what she said and what michael said she didn't say. let's listen. >> does it strike you that as the unemployment rate goes up, your chances of winning also go up? >> well, that could be. again, i hope so. my candidacy is one that i'm presenting to be a job creator and to turn the economy around. >> is that politically acceptable today to say you hope you benefit from bad economic news? that people are thrown out of work? she just said, i hope so -- >> i think she's -- you can run it again. i think what she's saying, she's hoping her message about job creation is one that allows her the chance to compete and win the office. >> he said are you hoping -- >> it's no different than barack obama running around in 2008 talking about what he thought the opportunities -- >> she said i hope it does help me. >> there's a serious discussion to be had here. a couple months ago when the job numbers were good, what were the republican leaders in congress saying? see, you elect us and the numbers go up. now they're blaming barack obama. what's happening is -- >> the job numbers have not been good. >> when they were better at the beginning of the year the republicans tried to take credit. when they're bad -- >> he went along with the bush tax cuts. >> that's what they're talking about. that's the only option they have. i'm happy to hear you talk about job creation. all we hear from the republicans is is reduce government spending and cut taxes. taxes are at a historic -- let me finish. they're at a historic low. if you cut government spending you end up contracting demand. that's a job loser. it doesn't create jobs. >> it does create jobs. fundamentally creates jobs. >> no, it doesn't. most of the jobs lost are public jobs. you have teachers being fired. >> how do you expect an employer to spend more money when you're taking more out of his pocket? >> you're not taking -- >> if you're cutting his taxes -- >> taxes are low now. >> i have to get something straight here. >> taxes right now -- 39%. they're going to 45% over the next 18 months based on what's -- >> marginal rates are 35%. >> 45% in 18 months. >> you run a small shoe store. customers start pouring in the door some weekend. you hire a couple people to help sell shoes, right? it's about demand. taxes go up 3%, 4% for the richest people in the country. you don't fire people. who's coming in to buy? sales and consumer demand drives the economy and drives the number of people higher. >> it's not just sales and consumer demand that's driving this. you have an entire network, if you will, of business opportunities out there that have not been a part of this discussion for the last -- >> there's a difference in values. let's take a look at senator orrin hatch wednesday talking about shared -- here's a senator of the united states under pressure from the tea party. a guy who has always been a conservative but now fearful of the far right, tea party people, afraid to say what he normally would say back when he was partners with ted kennedy. here's something he would have never said before. let's listen. orrin hatch. >> i get a little tired of hearing the obama approach toward shared sacrifice. the top 1% of the so-called wealthy pay 38% of all income tax. the other sides just spends and spends and spends and want to tax and tax and tax so they can spend some more. my gosh. when are we going to wake up in this country and realize they're spending us into bolivion? i hear how they're so caring for the poor and so forth. the poor need jobs and they also need to share some of the responsibility. >> you know, the latest republican carp out there is that democrats don't tax the poor enough. and they're saying that half the people don't pay tax. the fact is that 82% of the country -- >> they don't tax the poor enough. >> what's he talking about there? >> what he's acknowledging is that as just recently reported by the joint committee on taxation, 51% of american households do not pay income tax right now. >> they pay payroll tax. >> the fact of the matter is -- that's social security. that's not enough. let me finish the point. i'll let you do your thing. the reality of it is 51% of american households, taxpayers, don't pay taxes. what you're talking ant is a shrinking number of people contributing to the overall investment through tax policy in this country. you don't have that. so if you have 51% of taxpayers that don't pay, you're looking at a smaller and smaller number. >> let him finish. >> what the senator is talking about is creating an environment in which the poor are empowered to get jobs so they can contribute taxes and so forth. getting a job to pay more taxes -- >> that's not what he said. >> that is what he said. i talked to the man. i know exactly -- >> he just said they also need to share responsibilities. >> once they get jobs. he didn't say -- >> he did. wait a second. >> this is the first part of what he said. the poor need to get jobs. >> he said the poor need jobs and they also need to share -- >> that's part of that responsibility. >> come on, people. >> when you say 51% don't pay income taxes, what is your suggestion? we should put more income taxes on those people at the bottom rungs? that's the solution? >> no, he said the tax system is upsidedown. >> should we raise taxes on people at the bottom half of the country? >> no. no. i don't think we should -- the bottom line is let's -- look at the tax code as is constituted right now and fix those areas that need to be fixed and will allow more revenue to flow as opposed to giving the tax breaks and the loopholes. >> what we hear from the republicans again and again is the economy is in trouble, let's cut taxes. we did that during the bush era -- >> let's stop yelling. i want to -- this program is about documenting. first of all, michele bachmann, the congresswoman, really did say she hopes she does win, benefit from higher unemployment. she said i hope so. i hope i benefit politically from -- >> i don't think -- >> she said it again and again. i'm not going to play it again and again. let's play it again. let's watch it again. let's hear her speak for herself. congresswoman bachmann. >> does it strike you as the unemployment rate goes up your chances of winning office also go up? >> well, that could be. i, again, i hope so. my candidacy is one that i'm presenting to be a job creator and to turn the economy around. >> the economy, yes. >> and so everybody in this town has been asking -- making the very -- >> let him talk. >> everybody in this town is making the very obvious statement. well, barack obama is in trouble if the unemployment rate stays at 9.2. if it doesn't get below a certain rate. that's all she is acknowledging at 9.2% -- >> she hopes she benefits -- >> she didn't say she hopes the economy gets better. >> you don't think -- >> okay. let me ask you this. let me -- then, again, here's orrin hatch. "i get a little tired of hearing the obama approach toward shared sacrifice. he's complaining about the rich being blamed. he is now saying the poor also need to share some of the responsibility. go ahead. >> when you talk about shared sacrifice, you look at what the republicans want to do in the ryan budget which is have $1 trillion in tax cuts while cutting medicare, medicaid, food safety, education, medical research -- >> obama has already cut medicare. >> no, he didn't. >> $500 billion. oh, he transferred. that's washington, folks. we transferred funds. >> we gave them money -- >> we didn't cut. they transferred funds. >> hey, can i finish? >> seriously. a half a billion dollars. >> can i finish one point? >> yes, i can. >> that money was used to plug the doughnut hole. >> oh, yeah, doughnut hole. >> you want to make fun of that? >> i'm not. it's that your washington speak is not the reality for people out there. >> just to make one point, i want to show a collage of all the republican candidates for president now. we're going to start now with -- we showed bachmann. let me quote what other people are saying. let's talk about the other -- i think they think they're gaining here. this is about how they reacted. we have romney. "today's abysmal jobs report confirmed what he all know, that president obama has failed to get the economy moving again." jon huntsman's statement roads "the american people have been extraordinarily patient in waiting for the better and brighter times promised to them by this administration. their patience has rightly worn thin." tim pawlenty's statement, "we will have continued anemic growth and disappointing job creation so long as barack obama is president." your party was clearly ready to jump on it. >> absolutely. that's the politics of running for president, chris. don't act like this is something new and fantastic and no democrat is ever -- demagogue -- >> are you rooting for bad economic times? >> i'm not. >> are they? >> no, they're not. at the end of the day, they're not. >> do you think they're hoping the economy is going to tank really bad, they can walk into the white house? >> i think some are hoping for that. i think some tea party members in congress now are willing to play chicken with the economy. >> i think so, too. >> and blow it up and they don't care, because you know what, if it happens -- >> fair enough. you made a charge. fair enough. you made a charge some tea party people would rather have the economy go to hell in a hand basket this august with the world markets and interest rates spiking and the bond market dying and this country, joke world, just to make their point on taxes. you say that. >> yes. >> are there any liberals on the left coast out in california, in the bay area or the east coast in the new york area or black caucus, do you think there's some of them that are so adamant about not giving up on medicare and medicaid or social security that they'll let it happen? that they'll let it happen rather than get on those issues? >> that they'll let it happen. >> they won't agree to a deal that stops -- >> every one would vote for a bill and not play chicken with the economy. >> what about the other point? >> i don't think you should have to give up medicare to prevent a financial crisis from happening. >> give up medicare -- nobody's saying to give up medicare. >> no one said that. >> what do you mean? you're tieing the debt ceiling -- >> the nobility of the left. the reality of it is -- the reality of it is the tea party folks out there are saying they're not saying we want to run the economy off the cliff. they want responsible leadership in there and making sure -- >> changing in the tax code, this president -- proposing -- are so modest, so marginal and the changes down the road in medicare and social security are going to be so modest all this stuff is tempest in a teapot. thank you, michael steele, david corn. it's going to be way down the road and the basic thing we have to do. coming up, is president obama giving away too much? we'll debate that one, too. we'll take david's point here. progressives are worried, david and others, me, too, sometimes about any cuts to make, any social security adjustments. people say don't give up on nothing. let's see if they're right. you're watching "hardball." almost tastes like one of jack's cereals. fiber one. uh, forgot jack's cereal. 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[ jack ] yeah, this is pretty good. discover customersl are getting five percent cashback bonus at the pump... and at many of the places their summer plans take them. it pays to switch, it pays to discover. the republican party is losing ground with two key voting groups right now. senior citizens and midwesterners. 44% say they're democrats. 35% say they're republicans. 44%, 35%. a nine-point spread for the democrats. last year the spread was only two points and republicans actually won the senior vote in the midterms. and in the midwest, the similar trend. this year 42% of midwestern voters say they're democrats versus just 31% who say they're republicans. that's a wide spread. 11 points. last year they had a four-point spread, the democrats. we'll see if both trends continue into next year's elections. a lo t of people think fiber can do one thing and one thing only, and those people are what i like to call wrong. take metamucil. sure it helps you keep regular, but it doesn't stop there. metamucil is the only leading fiber supplement with psyllium, which gels to help remove waste and reduce cholesterol. it can multi-multitask. it's so 2012. look at it! it's doing over a million different things right now. metamucil. ask more of your fiber. we do not support cuts in benefits on social security and medicare. any discussion of medicare or social security should be on its own table. do not consider social security a piggy bank for giving tax cuts to the wealthiest people in our country. we are not going to balance the budget on the backs of america's seniors, women, and people with disabilities. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was house democratic leader nancy pelosi on thursday. here's house speaker john boehner today. let's listen. >> there is no agreement in private or in public, and as the president said yesterday, we are this far apart. it's not like there's some imminent deal about to happen. there are serious disagreements about how to deal with this serious problem. >> how far apart are they? are the democrats worried president obama will give away too much to get a deal? mr. leader, you have a tough job. i don't know how you're getting through this. i really mean this. i've heard a report today there's going to be some kind of effort to look at changes down the road that we can't cut taxes or rather raise taxes right now. we can't cut benefits right now because of the economy being so precarious. does that mean we're going to have to push the big changes to deal with the deficit and debt, going to have to go down the road a bit and to the long term, maybe more than ten years? >> chris, i don't know about more than ten years, but certainly as you know, simpson bowles, senator simpson and former chief of staff erskine bowles, in their report they proposed making substantial cuts, raising revenues and across the board with all items of expansion. but they said in the near term, meaning the next year of so, we need to be very careful that we did not have the opposite effect by dampening down the struggling economy, obviously, as we saw today, which will decrease revenues and make the problem worse, not better. so in the short term, i agree with the bowles/simpson suggestion that we be very careful in the short term. there's no doubt, however, in the white house yesterday, or thursday -- yesterday -- there was a clear agreement that this was a serious, serious challenge that confronted us and it demanded at all of us try to come together and reach an agreement whereby we will certainly over the next 10 years and 20 years bring this deficit town and bring the debt down because it's not sustainable. >> do most of the members in your caucus agree that this is an urgent matter, that this is not a kabuki dance, that this august 2nd is a reality, you cannot afford to have the world money markets think of the united states as a deadbeat. >> absolutely. i think that the entire caucus, to a person, believes that putting the united states of america in the position where it doesn't pay its bills will have ramifications to everybody in this country and around the world. as a matter of fact, i've told the speaker and i've told mr. cantor, the republican leader, that democrats would come up with at least 150 votes to make sure that we extend the debt limit so we cannot default and pay the bills that we have already incurred. so that i think the answer is emphatically, yes, chris, we believe this is a very serious issue and secretary geithner made it clear after august 2nd, there's no maneuvering room, we'll run out of ways to maneuver to pay our bills and we will be in default. that we cannot let happen. >> the president said the other day social security as well as medicare, they're all on the table. how's that selling with your caucus? >> well, i think -- i've said many times everything needs to be on the table. leader pelosi has said the same. we have also said that we must not touch the benefits social security recipients are receiving or that undermine medicare benefits. we have not said that, therefore, they ought to be off the table. i agree, though, with leader pelosi, you just used her quote. social security has not been part of the problem. as a matter of fact, social security up until this year has been, as you well know, chris, providing surpluses which we have used. so social security is not the problem, but we do need to strengthen and make social security sustainable over the long term, but we need to consider social security on its own merits without adversely those getting benefits. the fact is everything needs to be on the table but not every facet of everything should be on the table. we don't think -- i agree with leader pelosi, we don't certainly want to look at reducing health care costs for people or reducing social security benefits because we want to give large tax cuts to the wealthiest in america. that's not, i think, a policy that the american public thinks is either smart, or frankly, moral. >> it's going to be a tough couple days. thank you so much. u.s. congressman steny hoyer, house democratic leader. >> thank you, chris. joining me now, democratic senator mark warner of virginia. on the banking, budget and commerce committees. senator warner, i was wondering in the course of the -- as we get closer and closer to the deadline on the action of the debt ceiling legislation, why are we not hearing from big business? why are we not hearing from tom donahue of the u.s. chamber of commerce demanding action to avoid a default? >> chris, as you know, and many of your viewers, i'm a pro-