okay to break the law. is it going to kill americans? no. nobody kills what happens to al nashiri. nobody cares. >> your response on this, bill press. >> i love it when republicans hate the idea we might be involved in healthcare, but they defend those who torture prisoners. what the prosecutor has got to do is follow the evidence. if there are people in the field who broke the law, they've got to be prosecuted. the chain of command, wherever it goes, they've got to follow the evidence and prosecute those as well. >> that's the issue with the obama white house. it doesn't sound like they want to go after rumsfeld. >> they left it up to the attorney general. i find it refreshing we've got a white house and an attorney general. the attorney general believes it's his job to enforce the law and not cover up for the white house. i trust eric holder to make the right decision. >> jeanne, your thoughts on that? >> i agree in that i think these things take on a life of their own. >> they do. >> as much as the white house may try to contain it, it's a very aggressive prosecutor they are looking at to put in charge of all of this. i think this thing will probably expand. >> panel, appreciate your time tonight. thanks so much. earlier in the show, i ask you what you thought, should cia interrogators who followed bush administration orders be prosecuted for torture? 64% say yes. 36% of you say no. that's "the ed show." i'm ed schultz. for more on the ed show, go to ed.msnbc.com. or check out my ratio show. got a town hall meeting university of colorado in boulder on sunday night opinion should be a great one. "hardball" with chris matthews starts right now. good evening. i'm chris matthews in new york. manslaughter. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in new york. leading off tonight, manslaughter. the news broke late this afternoon the los angeles county coroner has ruled michael jackson's death a manslaughter. jackson's death was caused by lethal levels of an anesthetic called propofol, that's according to findings by the los angeles chief medical examiner unsealed in court documents in houston, texas, just today. we'll have the latest details in just a moment. plus, terror report. conservatives wanted it kept under wraps. liberals wanted it out, and tonight a cia report on the treatment and mistreatment of prisoners in iraq and afghanistan has been released for all to see. the report reveals that cia interrogators threatened to kill the children of a september 11 suspect. in another case an interrogator allegedly tried to convince a suspect that his mother would be sexually assaulted in front of him. at the same time attorney general eric holder has decided to appoint a special prosecutor to look into possible abuses. this has huge consequences for president obama, who was wanted to avoid prosecutions and concentrate on his domestic agenda. we'll talk to two former members of the cia. about these late-breaking developments. also, two republican senators said yesterday the absence of senator edward kennedy from the health care debate is preventing a deal from being made. that's big news. and can you imagine a u.s. congressman responding to an audience member who called himself, quote, a proud right wing terrorist by saying amen, god bless you. now, there's a great american. well, it happened. and we'll tell you who said it in the "hardball sideshow" tonight. but we begin with the news about michael jackson. msnbc.com's courtney hazlett. we've been waiting for this report for weeks now. i have been around the world lately in africa and places like that. this is going to be a bombshell. >> it's definitely a bombshell. we've been waiting for it, talking about it, saying the word manslaughter over and over again and how it would likely be applied to this case, and finally here it is today. surprising in its timing, of course. also surprising, it comes on the heels of this search warrant affidavit becoming unsealed. it was filed in texas. it's unsealed, and it has to do with that texas investigation. what we learn here is the time line of events that took place the night that michael jackson died. i thought it was very interesting. conrad murray allegedly in this affidavit said that he gave michael jackson a number of drugs beginning at 1:30 in the morning, valium, ativan, versed, then ativan again and versed again, and finally at 10:40 on the morning he died propofol diluted with lidocaine. from there, he left the room for two minutes, he says, accord to go this affidavit, and when he came back, michael jackson was not breathing anymore. that's when resuscitation efforts began. finally, for the first time -- this is a bombshell as well -- we have some sort of chain of events of exactly what happened, what was administered and in what doses. >> courtney, around the world this isn't going to be complicated. the word is going to be out on the streets of every county, village, township in the world, somebody killed michael jackson. somebody killed him. that's the way manslaughter will be read. >> that's how it will be interpreted. you're absolutely right. >> is there any other interpretation? >> in the eyes of the law it means he was killed without malice. it's an important indication here. something you have to be careful about, especially once we start to say who is being charged. all we know is los angeles is saying it is manslaughter. they're not saying who did it. they're not saying it was with malice. >> well, someone will be charged. >> you are right, someone will be charged. >> and someone killed michael jackson. >> someone killed michael jackson, but was it intentional? that's what they're going to be trying to uncover. was it intentional? >> the world is going to interpret this the way it will. everywhere in the world they'll have their own interpretation. i can predict to you right now people will have their own interpretations. >> certainly. >> people will say somebody killed him and they wanted to kill him for political reasons. someone will find that reason. >> there are people inside the jackson family who tell me they believe michael jackson was worked to death, and we can expect wrongful death suits, not just including doctors, but including business associates and people -- >> what do we know about conrad murray without incriminating him? what do you we know about him? >> we know he is a medical doctor. >> is he a concierge doctor? >> i think he could be classified as one, yes. he was bought by michael jackson at a monthly fee. >> to get prescriptions for him? >> more or less, yes, to be on call 24/7. conrad murray says in this affidavit allegedly that he gave michael jackson propofol every night for six weeks, and only then did he decide, okay, maybe he has an abuse problem with this drug. it's somewhat confounding. >> it's a very strong anesthetic. it puts you away basically. puts you to sleep. >> it puts you under. it puts you under. chris, how many times have you heard somebody waking up from surgery and saying i feel so rested. you're not really sleeping. you're being put under. you are unconscious. also, we know that dr. murray describes himself as a cardiologist. he's not board certified. >> he wasn't much good at the time of the death. >> it would appear that he was not. in here it says he did administer cpr to michael jackson and at one point left the room mid-resuscitation. i found that to be a little bit c confounding as well. >> the trial will be interesting. courtney hazlett, thank you for bringing us up to date. let's go to the reverend jesse jackson. reverend jackson, what i think the world, and i have been out there and you are around the world all the time, hears manslaughter, michael jackson, what will they put together here? >> they will put together all of the theories, conspiracy, irrational theories that michael was killed. the question becomes what doctor or doctors participated in that process. i'm sure there will be unending lawsuits because the accused will face a court of law and will make the case, and the question is how long did this take place? how many doctors were involved in the process? the coroner has concluded that mike michael jackson didn't die of an infliction. >> you know michael jackson, you knew him when he was alive. did you have a sense he was in control of his own destiny, that he was making rational decisions and reasonable decisions about his own medical treatment and the kind of stimulation or anesthesia he was accepting? >> i did not know about michael's medical treatment. i knew him since he was maybe 9 years old. i spent a lot of time with him the last three or four years as he was preparing to handle his business and get his catalog in place. i spent time with him as he was preparing, excited frankly, about going to london to take the next phase of his career. so we never got into that. i met with him and his children as a matter of fact. never had any idea that he was this deeply involved in any kind of substance abuse. >> let me ask you, you're a man of the world, reverend. you know how big the world was in terms of this man. the king of pop. he really was -- i mean, i was lucky enough to be in africa a couple of weeks ago right after his death, and i can tell you the local newspapers in countries like swaziland, south african press, white and black leadership for both, huge stories about his funeral. i can only expect that tomorrow morning you're going to see headlines like you can't believe, that word manslaughter. it's going to be powerful. >> well, i think that those who would try to make the case that the doctor was connected to aeg, they'll try to make that case. there are those who will try to make the case he's worth more dead than alive. there will be a lot of theories. i hope we can arrest some of those theories and let this be handled as calmly as possible in a courtroom and not just a newsroom. newsrooms are going to be wild. this is really news ratings stuff. i don't know that that helps his family. doesn't help his legacy. >> yeah. reverend jackson, thanks for taking your time getting on the phone so quickly. thank you very much. reverend jesse jackson. let's turn now to msnbc's george lewis in los angeles. what do you have, george, in terms of this notion that we're now facing what looks to be a coming -- not a homicide charge, but a manslaughter charge coming here? >> yeah. the los angeles police department is telling nbc news that this is, indeed, a homicide at this point, likely a manslaughter case. very interesting, the affidavit that was unsealed today in houston, texas, shows some strange conduct on the part of dr. murray as jackson was dying. murray told police at the time that he saw jackson wasn't breathing at approximately 11:00 in the morning, but then the police pulled murray's cellular telephone records showing him on the phone with three different callers for about 47 minutes starting at 11:18 until about 12:05 that day. so there may be some evidence there that murray wasn't paying close attention to jackson's condition. propofol is an extremely dangerous anesthetic drug that needs to be administered usually under hospital room conditions, under operating room conditions, and he was doing this at jackson's home. so if this turns into a manslaughter charge, the charge will probably be that he gave a legal drug but did so in a rather unethical manner and careless manner that obviously led to jackson's death. that will probably be the charge if it turns into a manslaughter case, chris. >> george, looking at the document itself that was released in harris county today in houston because that's where mr. murray lives and practices, can we -- without projecting an inch beyond the document itself, what does it tell us? >> it tells us that there is evidence that dr. conrad murray prescribed propofol and a whole medicine chest full of other drugs to jackson, who complained that he didn't sleep. that at one point he felt that jackson was becoming hooked on propofol and tried to wean him off the anesthetic, but that jackson complained he couldn't sleep without it. so he was trying other drugs, other tranquilizers, and when jackson complained that he couldn't sleep, then he administered to him the propofol in addition to the other drugs on the day that jackson died. so the question is was it the propofol or was it a combination of drugs that killed jackson? obviously, now police calling this a homicide. they think that the actions of dr. murray probably led to jackson's death. >> just to get this straight, this is going to be handled in what county court? los angeles county court? how will it be handled legally? >> this would likely as most murder cases are, including the very famous o.j. simpson case, it would probably go to los angeles superior court because this is the county where jackson's death occurred, where the alleged crime occurred. so dr. murray, we're not quite sure where he is at this moment. he has practices in houston and las vegas and also here in los angeles. we're also being told by the los angeles police department that there is no arrest imminent. >> okay. thank you very much, george lewis for nbc news in los angeles. coming up, that cia report just out late today detailing some of the things interrogators did to terror suspects. finally, thanks to freedom of information and the aclu, we're going to find out right now when we come back what was done to those suspects. the justice department wants an investigation into some of those bush era tactics. we've got a special counsel about to be named. in fact, he has been named, john durham. he's been named by eric holder, the attorney general. let's get reaction from two former cia officers coming up next. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. healthy hair is soft, silky. and you can get it. fabulous, healthy hair. all you need is pantene. salon names and fancy packaging are nice, but you don't need it. even experts agree. it's damage protection results leading salon brands can't beat. trust me on this, the blow dryer, the curling iron, and the flat iron, and my hair's still shiny. pantene moisture renewal. healthy makes is happen. coming up, a powerful question, how much do democrats miss ted kennedy during this big debate over health care and how does kennedy's absence give republicans maybe a reason not to participate or help give them an excuse not to make this thing work? welcome back to "hardball." today a cia report on the treatment and mistreatment of prisoners in iraq and afghanistan has been released. and it has new details about the kind of tactics used by cia interrogators out in the field. meantime, attorney general eric holder has announced a prosecutor to investigate whether any of these tactics broke the law. we have two former cia officers joining us in a minute, but we begin with what's in the cia report itself. with nbc justice correspondent pete williams. pete, what's in it? >> well, it says some new things we hadn't learned before, and it makes very clear that these were techniques that were not authorized by the cia, that went beyond the scope of what was authorized by the justice department. for example, one detainee was -- a hood was placed over his head. he was naked, and an electric drill was revved behind his head. the same detainee, there was a gun held by his head and the gun was racked to make the sound of the bullet entering the chamber. another detainee was in a room, a gun was fired outside, and the detainee was led outside the room and there was a guard lying there to look like a dead detainee. to make the person feel like they were shooting and killing people. other detainees were told we could bring your mother in here, we could bring your family in here. khalid sheikh mohammed was told that, if anything further happened after the 9/11 attacks, "we're going to kill your children." in another technique the carotid artery was pressed on a detainee until he was about to pass out and then he was shaken awake. that was repeated twice more. those are the techniques that -- among the techniques we're told that caused the concern of the attorney general. he's asked john durham, who is already looking into some cia matters, to add this to his portfolio, and durham will look and see whether these cases could be prosecuted. now, that's a tall order because you've got a very difficult thing here with these cases, the cia's inspector general's report is looking at things that happened after 9/11 up to october 2003. so you have cases that were a long time ago, hard to find witnesses, hard to find evidence, but he's going to look into probably ten cases in all we're told. >> and the president said he doesn't really want to do this, didn't he? >> well, what he's said is he doesn't want to go back -- you know, i guess whether the president said he doesn't want to do this or not is a good question. what robert gibbs said today is the president doesn't want to go back and look at anyone who was following the rules. these allegations are certainly outside of that boundary. >> i see. >> and it's quite clear i think now that this is pretty much the universe of cases that eric holder wants to prosecute or to look at. it's quite clear tonight that he's not going to say that a prosecutor should look at bush administration officials who conceived of this enhanced interrogation program or the justice department lawyers who authorized it. >> okay. thanks, pete williams at the justice department. joining us bob bair, former cia case officer and time.com's intelligence columnist. and tyler drumheller, who is also a cia guy. he was a cia european division chief. let me start with bob on this question. do any of these allegations surprise you? does this seem extraordinary, this technique, clicking a gun with a guy blindfolded? using a drill in this same way? scaring a guy about what they're going to do to his relatives? is this really far beyond the orbit of what's normally done to get information? >> oh, absolutely. when i was in the cia, and up until 9/11, this was considered beyond the limits completely and illegal. this happened during the bush administration, and it's something entirely new. it's a violation of american law, no question about it. >> let me ask tyler the same question. does this sound well beyond the purview of what was normally done to get information? >> this is completely different. this is outside the scope of what an intelligence service is supposed to do, what any civilized people are supposed to do. intelligence services are supposed to recruit sources and gather information. this is illegal activity, but it's a policy problem as well, too. it isn't just these bad individuals. >> right. let's listen to something the vice president said in the days just after 9/11 that really gets to it. he said it on "meet the press," open society you might say. here is what he said. >> we also have to work sort of the dark side, if you will. we have to spend time in the shadows in the intelligence world. a lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done quietly without any discussion using sources and methods that are available to our intelligence agencies if we're going to be successful. that's the world these folks operate in, and so it's going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposal basically to achieve our objective. >> well, there he is telling tim russert any means at our disposal. i must ask you first of all, bob, i assume the cia watches "meet the press." i'm going to ask the same question to tie leisure. i'm not kidding here. these are directions from the top. is it fair to say that an operative interrogating somebody might be listening to the vice president when he's doing his job or her job? >> chris, it wasn't just the vice president. this went right up the chain to the director of operations, to the director himself. they cannot claim they did not know what was going on. no cia officers i have ever worked with would willingly and gladly do this without directions. there should be accountability at the top. no question about it. >> were they getting it right there on television? >> and on television. i mean, and they knew they were pressing the law on this or going over the top on this. there's no question about it. this is not the way the cia works. for all these years since it was founded after world war ii. it was, as tyler said, it was to recruit sources, volunteers, and debrief them and send in reports and that's what the cia was about. this administration, the bush administration, changed those rules. >> is that the way you read it, tyler, whatever is necessary, a statement by the vice president that couldn't be more clear, whatever is necessary. >> i think and the tone that was set right after 9/11 there was an idea that we were about to be attacked again, everything that was -- could be done would be done. when they talk about outside the law and outside the regulations, bob knows this, that you get regulations, you get guidelines, but those are very general. even the guidelines in this were very general, and they're open to interpretation and it's the ab ro -- abrogatin of responsibility of the people at the top not to define it for the people at the bottom. >> i'm a defense attorney. anybody picked up under this charge, any operative charged for going beyond what was normally the standard procedure for the agency. i'm a defense attorney. i don't have to be a brilliant guy, i don't have to be edward bennett williams to say, members of the jury, please watch "meet the press" a few days after 9/11. please watch what the vice president -- tyler, you're shaking your head. that's what i'd do if i was a defense attorney. >> that's right, yeah. >> it seems appropriate to me. your thoughts? >> that's exactly the defense they'll take. in fact, the prosecutions, if there are any at the end of this, are the least important thing. what they need to do is make sure this doesn't happen again, the misuse of an intelligence service. and then in doing that, they don't go too far the other way and get into the mistakes the fbi often makes which is focusing only on criminal prosecutions. it's a very complicated process, way beyond just prosecuting a few people that exceeded their brief in this. >> bob, i have to tell you, i have no idea what goes on when we try to get top stuff from top people of the bad guys, if you will. but you guys are pretty insistent this goes beyond the limits. >> it absolutely goes beyond the limits. it's torture. the definition of torture conventions, the geneva convention. american lau. it is clearly -- the cia has understood this for years it went beyond anything past practices. i have no doubt about it. this is against the law. >> thank you very much, bob baer, and thank you tyler drumheller. it's great having experts on the program. up next, a u.s. congressman calls a self-described right wing terrorist a great american. that's his reaction. that profile in courage coming up in the "sideshow." by the way, the "sideshow" is getting very well named by the behavior of the wing nuts. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. back to "hardball." time for the "sideshow." first up, u.s. congressman trent franks of arizona has upgraded the birther bs. this weekend mr. franks informed a public town meeting that he had been considering bringing a lawsuit in the matter. it's not quite clear whom he intended to sue. the president, i guess. here is the problem with this. if barack obama was not born in the u.s., which a contemporary newspaper announcement of his birth and the standard documentation made available by the state of hawaii attest, then there's nothing to this birther craze. if, on the other hand, his parents and grandparents and everyone else at the time as well as the state bureaucracy of hawaii affected that birth announceme announcement, then barack obama is not only the legitimate president, he's in this country illegally. the correct action for you to have taken if you were serious wasn't a lawsuit, it was an arrest warrant and swift deportation. that's if you're serious and not just one of those pandering to the worst impulses of the most angry, frightened people out there. late today, the u.s. congressman's press secretary put out the word that the congressman mr. franks was considering filing a suit but had changed his mind. next up, here is one from republican congressman wally herger of california. at his town hall meeting some guy yelled out bragging that he was, quote, a proud right wing terrorist, to which the congressman responded, amen, god bless you. now, there's a great american, a great american. a guy who thinks it's okay in this day and age to call himself a right wing terrorist. this is the dangerous edge on which these people, including some elected officials, are now dancing. we've been here before. words lead to actions. words create the national mood. the mood creates a license. people take that license and use it. i'm not spelling it out any further because i don't want to. time now for tonight's "big number." here it is august and what percent of the top policymaking jobs in the obama administration have been filled? well, according to a study reported in today's "new york times," just 43% of those jobs, less than half. a big factor? the obama team's having a tough job getting its people vetted. seven months in, the white house has just 43% of its policy team in place. that's tonight's "big number." up next, john mccain says the health care debate has been hurt by ted kennedy's absence. how much the democrats miss ted kennedy's leadership? a whole lot. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. ( conversation ) garth, you're up. hold on, i'm at capitalone.com picking a photo... for my credit card. here's one from my prom. oh, what memories. how 'bout one from our golf outing? ( shouting ) i know, maybe one of my first-born son. dad, mom says the boys gotta go. personalize your card by uploading... your own photo at capitalone.com. what's in your wallet? ♪ ( whooshing, riders cheering ) real food at the right price! this is the primo stuff. one appetizer and two premium entrees. just twenty bucks-every day. genuine food. generous portions. genius price. 2 for $20! only at applebee's. i'm lynn barry. here's what's happening. a federal jury in los angeles has ordered the philip morris tobacco company to pay $13.8 million in punitive damages. the money goes to judy bullock, the doctor of a long-term smoker who died in 2003. fire crews are battling a massive fire at a chemical plant in detroit. so far reports in injuries. the government says the overwhelming popularity of this cash for clunkers program caused a key website shut down temporarily. they're now extending the deadline for dealers to file paperwork until tomorrow. the actual deadline is tonight at 8:00 eastern. stocks fell flat today as investors took a break from last week's hectic buying. the dow jones gained three points p the s&p 500 is down half a point. and the nasdaq is off three points. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." ted kennedy's absence is certainly felt in the fight for health care reform. here is senator john mccain yesterday on abc's "this week." >> no person in that institution is indispensable, but ted kennedy comes as close to being indispensable as any individual i have ever known in the senate because he had a unique way of sitting down with the parties at a table and making the right concessions which really are the essence of successful negotiations. so it's huge that he's absent, not only because of my personal affection for him but because i think that health care reform might be in a very different place today. >> well, is senator mccain right? the chicago tribune's clarence page is a syndicated columnist, and "the boston globe's" susan milligan is the author of "the last lion," the book about ted kennedy. what is the condition of the senator as you can report it now for "the globe" and for us? >> well, obviously it's very tough. he's got a very aggressive brain tumor. we haven't seen him outside in quite some time. his family has been very good about keeping him -- keeping his day-to-day condition very private, but certainly he's not been well. he didn't go to his sister eunice's funeral, and that was certainly a sign of how things are, and i know that he would want to be in washington right now trying to work on this health care plan if he could. >> is there a calculation -- i know it's tough because everybody loves him up there and around the country, most people do actually. do you think he could make a vote in the senate if he had to come down and make a vote? >> you know, honestly, i know that people who don't know him think this is a crazy thing to say, but i can entirely envision a scenario where he would manage to get down there, be brought in with some assistance, and cast a vote for health care. i know it's that important to him. i know if it was within his power to do that, that he would absolutely do that. >> let me go to clarence. looking at this from around the country, the perspective, and you have covered the health care debate, certainly it was going on under nixon and carter, ever since ted kennedy has been a senator. his absence, it seems to me you don't have a quarterback on the field. you have a cheerleader in the president. you don't have a quarterback. you don't have daschle. you don't have him. you know, where would we be without hubert humphrey for civil rights in the '60s. it seems like that's where we are with health care. >> that's where we are. if we had had teddy kennedy and perhaps tom daschle over in the house, maybe president obama would have the legislation that he could really talk about right now instead of having five or six bills floating around over in congress. you know, you look at teddy kennedy's history i think his relationship with orrin hatch says as much as anything. hatch came to the senate with the idea of stopping teddy kennedy, as he put it, directly stopping teddy kennedy because he represented so much of the eastern liberal establishment and its push for issues like health care. before you knew it, teddy kennedy was working with orrin hatch. that was just how effective he was at working together on things that they could agree on and actually got through cobra, for example, to help out of work people buy health insurance. and wic, women, infant and children programs. things like that is what ted kennedy has been so effective in doing, and i think if anybody could get some senators to support a public option, he could do it. right now there aren't enough votes for the public option in the senate. >> susan, i have a bias here and i'm allowed to have a bias. i believe in national health insurance, but i believe it could be done incrementally and i think it should be done workably. i'm not one of those who believes it's better to die in a good cause than to succeed. i have watched that happen with ted kennedy refusing to deal with nixon back when he offered an employer mandate in '74. the failure to cut a deal with carter. the failure of the clintons to cut a deal with jim cooper and ding l and the rest of them and pat moynihan. it's easy to fail and say we did the best we could and blame the other side. kennedy, is it true he would have been better at deal making than the guys on the field right now? >> absolutely. in fact, the senator and i had a conversation about this several years ago where he said he did regret not having worked out something with health care with nixon at the time. it was pay or play. they didn't want to do it. he wanted a straight up national health care plan. in retrospect he said they could have got something in place and fixed the details later. that's certainly a lesson he brought to doing a lot of other legislation after that. i think right now what he'd be doing in a way that only he can and he's one of the few people with the authority to do this, to go in and say, look, stop fighting about these details. we have an opportunity to make history. this is really probably the third chance in his career they had this opportunity. the first under nixon, the second under clinton. this is the third chance. he said you have to decide whether you're going to stand in the way of history or whether you're going to work out the details and get something done. he might make some compromises, but he wouldn't let this thing fall apart. i'm absolutely convinced of that. >> do they cut a deal right now whereby they push what they can this year and promise they're going to do more later? in other words, something along the outlines of reform, pre-existing conditions, portability, things like that, cost cutting with the commitment they're going to move ahead with more universal coverage later or do they try to ram down this public option right down through the senate with 50 votes in year? where do you think they're headed right now in terms of that decision? >> i think they're moving towards some kind of deal. whether or not they will get that public option though is an important defining issue for obama particularly with his base because there's a growing sense that, if there's no public option, then what's the point? and teddy kennedy certainly learned his lesson early on. he's often said he regrets not going along with what president nixon wanted on health care, which i think in some ways is more radical, if you will, than what republicans want to support now. >> no, it's more radical than the democrats would hope to get done. ironically. you and i are the same age. nixon had an employer mandate, employers had to have health care for their employees. that sounds like -- well, i hate to use that word socialism that everybody is throwing around, but nixon was so far out on this one. susan, what are you thinking about all this thing now? he might make it for a vote basically. >> i mean, i just wouldn't be completely surprised if he did that. i think if he's able to do something like that, he will. as for some kind of deal, i think they're going to get something done. i don't know what it's going to be. i don't think that they're just going to let, you know, a handful of senators from a bunch of states that represent less than 3% of the population sort of kill health care. they'll get something done. it might not be exactly what they wanted, but they're definitely suffering for not having the senator there to kind of bust some heads, metaphorically, anyway. >> to quote an old rival of the kennedys, adlai stevenson, it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness. >> well said. >> thank you, clarence page and susan milligan. this thursday is the premiere of our documentary on "hardball" on msnbc of the kennedy brothers, joseph kennedy jr., john fitzgerald, robert, and ted kennedy. i think it's the best thing we've done around here. i hope you get to watch it. it includes interesting things like jack kennedy himself beginning to dictate his memory wars. it's rather poignant to listen to in the year before he died. here is a look at john f. kennedy, his incredible 1960 presidential campaign. >> join us to register this week to vote, to stand for progress, to move, to move, to go forward. >> for 1960 jack's campaign team developed a new playbook, one that has become familiar in every presidential campaign since. use the power of television and most importantly, take the candidate's case directly to primary voters, unheard of at the time, and use their toughness, political savvy, and money to win it all. it was a campaign like no other. in 1960 the key battleground was west virginia, a heavily protestant state where kennedy's religion would be put to the test. as planned kennedy's team played up their man's youth and war record contrasting lieutenant kennedy's hero status with humphrey's failure to serve in world war ii. a fact that still amuses kennedy friend ben bradley who served on a destroyer in the pacific. >> humphrey wasn't in world war ii. he was a hospital maid or something like that. >> you guys are unbelievable. >> no, but -- >> this is what i'm talking about. you guys kept score on who was in the front. >> we knew people's war records. we sure did. >> there's so much in this you've never seen before about how the kennedys came to power, their whole era in our lives. the kennedy brothers, it airs this thursday on msnbc at 7:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. up next, with attorney general eric holder appointing a special prosecutor to investigate bush era interrogations by the cia, is this exactly the kind of distraction president obama is worried about in the thick of this fight for health care reform? well, it's happening anyway. "the politics fix" is next. this is "hardball" only on msnbc. coming up, will the war in afghanistan be the war for president obama that vietnam was for lyndon johnson. horrid thought, but it's mine. "hardball" returns with "the politics fix" after this. where. ...or if you're already sick... ...or if you lose your job. your health insurance shouldn't either. so let's fix health care. if everyone's covered, we can make health care as affordable as possible. and the words "pre-existing condition" become a thing of the past... we're america's health insurance companies. supporting bipartisan reform that congress can build on. of the world's most revered luxury sedan. this is a history of over 50,000 crash-tested cars... this is the world record for longevity and endurance. and one of the most technologically advanced automobiles on the planet. this is the 9th generation e-class. this is mercedes-benz. this is the 9th generation e-class. (groans) a lot of people are gonna be kicking themselves for not buying in this market. (woman) visit remax.com where you can see all the listings in thousands of cities and towns. where do you want to be? welcome back. we're back with "the politics fix." joining me right now is the washington post's chris cillizza and "time" magazine's jay newton-small. thank you for joining me. this is an amazing story. this president has hoped to set the agenda. he wanted it to be health care. he didn't want to be going back and nailing interrogators or torturers, whatever you want to call them as it turns out now. well, we got a story on our hands here. what do you make of this now? we have evidence out there thanks to freedom of information success by the aclu, we now know that what was done to these suspects, they were by a lot of definitions they were tortured. >> you know, chris, i think you hit the nail on the head politically in the intro. this is not something that the obama administration wants to deal with. they made clear from the very start they were not interested in looking back, they wanted to look forward. but the evidence here, don't forget this is always important, not to mention the fact that the ideological left, part of president obama's base, is very fired up about this, the evidence has forced their hand in some ways. it does distract from health care. it does distract -- >> why is he prosecuting now because it comes to public light if he didn't when it wasn't in public light? i guess he got his first look at some of the cases too, i guess. >> that would be my guess not knowing it. but i think what the assessment they made was there was no way that they could not proceed with some kind of investigation. now, if you read this, it's a relatively circumscribed, narrow, focused investigation. it's not a broad look into interrogation tactics broadly. it's looking at ten or a dozen cases. still, this is not something the obama administration -- in an ideal world they want to be talking about health care first, health care second, and health care third. and this distracts. for better or for worse. >> let me go to ms. small. what do you make of this as a story? it seems to me it will bring the vice president in front and center. a favorite topic on this program and favorite topic of mine. chris is laughing because he knows it's so true. but if you have a top dog like the vice president going on "meet the press" a couple days after 9/11 and basically saying we're going to the dark side, like he's announcing he's darth vader, and saying we're going to do whatever is necessary, it seems to me that any cia operative with a decent defense attorney can go to any prosecutor like mr. durham and say, look, i did what the boss said to do. >> well, look, i think it's important to make the distinction here that this isn't actually an investigation. this is just a preliminary review, which means that they're just going to be looking into seeing if there's enough evidence in order to actually do an investigation and some sort of prosecution down the road here. and everyone that you talk to about this says it's really hard. i mean, this is like the white elephant of investigations. it's incredibly difficult to prosecute these guys on this stuff because like you said, there's ample reasons to defend themselves. there's a lot of things -- a lot of people they can point to and say this is the policy at the time. this is the reason -- this is what they wanted us to do, but, you know, not only that, there's -- who was in the room? we don't even know. it's hard to have witnesses to say who was there. even know. it's hard to have witnesses to say who was there, what were they doing? it's literally, you know, often times the detainee's word against interrogator's word so these cases are very difficult to prosecute. just doing a preliminary review is very, very sort of initial thing. it's almost like health care. >> let me make it simple. i know you're a straight reporter. i'll go to chris and try to get some opinions. at the head of this if you said i lead with o.j. tonight i'd lead with o.j. if you said michael jackson i'd lead with michael jackson. and i wouldn't get in trouble for it because he told me to. if the vice president of the united states says we're going to the dark side and will use whatever is necessary to get the information, use all of those methods that are not pleasant, if he told us to do it and i did it how could i get prosecuted? >> i think your point is why you saw leon panetta the current head of the cia, many sort of cia defenders say this is not the right course to go down. this is going to have a chilling effect. this is going to affect the way in which we can legally obtain information. the problem is, there is a real desire among a significant bloc of this country. i think what partisan side you come from depends on how big you think that is but they want this to be looked at. they believe there were blatant rules and laws violated. >> if the vice president found somebody had taken somebody who was a top prospect in al qaeda and put a hood on their head and put a drill next to their head and turned it on full strength to scare the bejesus out of them do you think the vice president would do anything more than give us that weird sort of grinning snarl of his? do you think he'd be upset by it and say oh, don't do that again? you're laughing. can you imagine the vice president saying oh, what a terrible thing to do? you didn't do that, did you? you know, how about they shot somebody in the next room and scared the hell out of the guy because they said a gun went off tan's for you next. i'm bringing your mother and the raper next. do you think the vice president would say you guys are getting too rough? >> i and many other political reporters have made -- have gone bankrupt trying to predict what dick cheney would say or do so i'm not going to get into that mindset. i do think his presence at the center of this from just a purely political perspective adds to what jay was saying about the difficulty from a legal perspective. he is such a polarizing figure for so many americans that him being there i think makes it -- and him at the center of this complicates trying to piece this out and figure out what actually happened because dick cheney by his very nature people feel so strongly about him they either think he was absolutely involved, he wasn't, one way or another it's hard to get at what actually happened here. >> we'll get back to you on this. i want to get to you on afghanistan. a huge story. we'll be right back. i wonder whether he's getting into the same kind of sinkhole lbj was in in vietnam. you must be looking for motorcycle insurance. you're good. thanks. so is our bike insurance. all the coverage you need at a great price. hold on, cowboy. cool. i'm not done -- for less than a dollar a month, you also get 24/7 roadside assistance. ght on. yeah, vroom-vroom! sounds like you ran a 500. more like a 900 v-twin. excuse me. well, you're excused. the right insurance for your ride. w, that's progressive. call or click today. what's in it for me? i'm not looking for a bailout, just a good paying job. that's why i like this clean energy idea. now that works for our whole family. for the kids, a better environment. for my wife, who commutes, no more gettin' jerked around on gas prices... and for me, well, it wouldn't be so bad if this breadwinner brought home a little more bread. repower america. i hope our senators are listening. [ engine powers down ] gentlemen, you booked your hotels on orbitz. well, the price went down, so you're all getting a check thanks. for the difference. except for you -- you didn't book with orbitz, so you're not getting a check. well, i think we've all learned a valuable lesson today. good day, gentlemen. thanks a lot. thank you. introducing hotel price assurance, where if another orbitz customer books the same hotel for less, we're back with jane newton small and chris soliza. this is a powerful story. let's take a crack at it. jane, it seems to me afghanistan is growing as a problem area for this president, for our troops over there especially, for the country. >> absolutely. and, look. you've got senator russ feingold coming out and calling on president obama to set a timeline for withdrawal of troops in afghanistan and that's really a big deal. i mean, russ feingold spearheaded the effort to get the troops out of iraq and air talking about the progressive side of the party really wondering when are we going to get out of afghanistan? are we going to be sending more troops in? you know, that's a scary question. are we going to be there a decade, two decades? that was the quagmire of vietnam that brought down lbj. >> and would have maybe brought down jack kennedy. chris soliz, it seems he backed into this, he didn't want to fight the iraq war, this was the necessary war he said again last week. necessary or not it's just getting worse. >> you know, i think the president is trying to make a calculation, chris, that is outside of the political spectrum. in some ways it's like health care, something he clearly believes in. you go back to the beginning of the campaign and he won over the liberal left with his calls that he was consistent on iraq from the beginning essentially saying this was a dumb war. he wasn't opposed to wars but to dumb wars. this is where on a foreign policy front he looks like he wants to make his mark. it is risky politically. there's no question about it. as jay pointed out, is the left already not thrilled with the president over the whole public opon

Related Keywords

United States , New York , Iraq , Afghanistan , Texas , Town Hall , Colorado , Swaziland , Houston , Harris County , London , City Of , United Kingdom , South Africa , Americans , South African , American , Michael Jackson , Courtney Hazlett , Al Nashiri , Edward Kennedy , Conrad Murray , Las Vegas , Jesse Jackson , Ed Schultz , Los Angeles , Chris Matthews , Mike Michael Jackson , John Durham , Ted Kennedy ,