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ex-president it all but ensures that special counsel jack smith will hear from the key witness who none of the other investigations into the trump cou plot not the fulton county d.a. has ever heard from under oath we're, of course, talking about mike pence a ruling handed down wednesday night by a federal appeals court rejects an emergency request by trump to block mike pence's testimony. "new york times" reports this, quote, the 11th hour ruling by the u.s. court of appeals for the district of colombia paves the way for mr. pence to appear before the federal grand jury as early as this week the ex-president has a few legal options left including an appeal to the supreme court but as nbc news reports, quote, in previous instances, where appeals sent senior aides must testify, his legal team has opted no the to fight the decision further and those witnesses have quickly appeared before the grand jury and trump's argument that executive privilege prevents pence or any of his aides from testifying about conversations they had with trump has already been rejected by court after court after court in this i have case "the washington post" reports that pence initially thought the subpoena himself arguing he was taking part in a congressional proceeding on january 6th and, therefore, covered by protections to lawmakers but when chief u.s. district judge in d.c. ruled that the debate clause would not cover illegal acts by the president, pence agreed to testify. so that trump then appealed on the grounds of his executive privilege prevented pence from testifying a position also rejected by the judge. pence's testimony would mark the end of what has been a month's long legal battle and could very well represent a breakthrough for jack smith once again, from "the washington post," pence's former chief of staff and chief counsel has both testified to the grand jury already. both were meeting and john eastman put forward the idea that pence could throw out the election results and instead recognize alternate electors supporting trump only pence can firsthand about conversations with the former president and close advisors and news breaking this afternoon of a new piece of evidence in the trump coup plot, one that is already in the hands of special counsel jack smith they commissioned a second firm to study election fraud claims after the weeks of the 2020 election and the founder of that firm was recently questioned by the justice department about his work disproving the claim. ken block founder of the firm studied more than a dozen vote fraud theories and allegations for trump's campaign and found they were all false. he said in an interview with "the washington post." yet, more proof piling up that team trump knew full well that any and all claims of fraud were baseless even if they sold the big lie to millions of americans. brand new momentum in jack smith's january 6th investigation in the form of new evidence and the target of trump's unprecedented pressure campaign to overturn the election on the verge of testifying in jack smith's investigationinto january 6 is where we begin today with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. "new york times" congressional reporter is here also joining us, harry litman, former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general. mary mccord is here, a former top official in the justice department's national security division and charlie sykes joins us mary mccord, this feels like this sort of patience, deliberate, and maybe aggressive, maybe you don't think it, is but legal strategy that jack smith is pursuing where he knows who he wants to talk to. he knows where the facts led him. he prevails in court until he gets, in this case, the testimony by vice president mike pence. >> yes we've seen it ever since he was appointed to sort of a steady stream of people going into the grand jury and jack smith taking up cases of refusal to testify first to the district court chief judge in, this case it was others if the side takes it up to the court of appeals, he's winning there. so here, you know, the question at this point is will the trump team either try to seek a full review of the entire -- what is called the endtire court of appeals or will they give up as they did with other cases as they did in trump's other high level officials. i don't know what the president's team will try to i findings communicated directly to trump himself again, supporting he knew there was no evidence of fraud >> right i want to show -- we assembled all of new part to help our viewers understand what it miss missing links r i want to do that with you, luke. we want to encircle the unavailable witnesses in this case this is how everyone was able to interview and describe that call that mary just referenced between trump and pence on january 6th. >> at some point it started off as a conversation and then became heated. >> the conversation was pretty heated >> did you hear any part of the phone call, even just the end that the president was speaking from >> i did yeah >> all right what did you hear? >> dropping off a note, my memory, i remember hearing the word wimp. he called him a wimp he said you are a wimp wimp is the word i remember. >> it is reported that the president said to the vice president something that you don't have the courage to make a hard decision. >> i remember it was something like that, yeah. like you're not tough enough to make the call. >> it's different tone than i heard him take with the vice president before >> something to the effect, i made the wrong decision four or five years ago >> and the word that she relaid that president called the vice president, i apologize to be impolite, but to you remember what he call him >> the p word. >> unfortunately for me that is all marked in my brain it feels like ball game. do you have someone under oath answering what happened on the other end of that phone call luke >> yeah. donald trump is on an indecreed losing streak. i think it's more than -- incredible losing streak right now. this greg jacob, pat philbin, mark meadows, evan corchran, miller, o'brien, it goes on and on and now finally pence you know, mike pence, of course, is the final piece of that phone call and of the day of january 6th. he's the other end of the call he explains exactly what happened for those who couldn't hear it on that end. i would also add he is also a victim here. juries like to hear from victims too. if you present this case as a prosecutor and, you know, the victim could be the american people, it could be democracy. but you also have a very specific human victim. mike pence said that donald trump endangered his family and life on january 6th through his actions. i think he can give them an extra tool as they're trying to bring this prosecution of donald trump home. >> yeah. i mean, charlie sykes, it's hard to think of pence as a victim of the circumstances, right he was so willing to take that job. he campaigned for the job. but on this day he is a victim of intended violence for him the mission statement of the insurrection was to, quote, hang mike pence i want to read what he writes. the fact that abby grossberg's lawyer said that some of the reportings that pick up ted cruz have been potentially of interest to jack smith i want to ask if this sounds different to you this is from mike pence's book about his last days with donald trump. early on new year's day, the phone rang texas representative louie gomer and another republicans filed a lawsuit asking a federal judge to declare i had exclusive authority and sole discretion to decide which votes count i don't want him to oppose the gomer suit the president said. i told him i did oppose it if it gives you the power, why would you oppose it? i told him i didn't believe i possessed that power under the constitution you're too honest, he said hundreds of thousands are going to hate your guts. people are going to think you're stupid the full crimes are conspiracy to defraud the united states conspiracy to make a false statement. inciting assisting and aiding an insurrection it's beyond debate, i think now that those things happened the missing link, as luke said, seems to be donald trump's intent and state of mind mike pence essentially described it in his own words in his own book how much of a box is pence in in terms of how forthcoming he has to be in front of this grand jury >> well, he already said that he's going to follow the law and tell the truth i think it's clear he has to answer those questions and he already answered some of the questions in his book. it's hard to imagine anyone being a bigger star witness for jack smith than the former vice president of the united states who will testify about his conversations with the president. ab then describe how his life was endangered that is how much he would tell a grand jury again, we don't know a lot of things that are going on i had a podcast today with an editor in chief and we talked about this and ben made the point that the subpoenaing of pence is not just aggressive it's really an indication that he is wrapping up this investigation. you do not bring in the vice president of the united states unless you are prepared to take the final steps here so, i do think that this losing streak is an indication that we are wrapping up. but what we don't know is what jack smith will do you know, how many of the political conspirators he will charge what kind of charges he might bring. will donald trump be an unnamed co-conspirator will he be indicted personally we don't know those things we certainly do know that he's been crossing the ts and dotting the is the fact that the investigators want it, they're prepared to gobble up any piece of evidence that is out there. >> harry, first question with ben's assessment that we're ready to put -- he is ready to put mike pence before the grand jury he is near the streets! you [ beep ] politicians are going to get drug through the streets. >> the hope is there is such a show of force that pence will decide to just do the right thing. >> bring him out >> bring out pence >> bring him out >> bring out pence >> we want pence >> mary, my question for you is, you know, that sound seems to tie trump to the fourth crime referred by the congressional committee inciting and aiding an insurrection how much do you that i is of interest or being probed by jack smith? >> well, i think that a lot of the same evidence that would support some of the other referred crimes will be the evidence that could support a crime like incitement to an insurrection i think that is one he'll really proceed with caution about it is so dramatic. but, again, january 6, what could have been more dramatic than january 6th i said ever since the day after january 6 that i think it is worth investigating incitement to insurrection. determining what trump knew about the intelligence that suggested there was going to be violence on that day, what he had been briefed on before january 6th, what did he know when he made that bullying call to mike pence? did he know that it was the crowd that was going to come, try to actually physically, you know, capture mike pence and do something really terrible to him? what did he know about that? that is something the prosecutors have to investigate. they would certainly not bring a charge like that without really feeling competent in their evidence that's the kind of charge -- of course, anything involving the former president, any charges are going to be lambasted by his supporters as being part of a political witchunt, et cetera, et cetera. but this one, i think, is one that they want to be super scrupulous and button down if they're going to bring something like that. my guess is they focused on the others but they're not counting this out. >> won't trump supporters be dubious about anything the crimes that he committed in plain view obstructing the official proceeding is illegal. is the mindset really you think going to be to more aggressive on what is viewed by trump voters as also a crime is that what you're saying >> i don't think it is so much the voters the i think that, you're right, those who are most in the trump camp, this is a witchunt that there was election fraud will, you know, cry foul no matter what charges are brought if there are charges brought. i think there are some probably, you know, on capitol hill that also do that there are others that may be a little more moderate and feel like this charge is more incendiary but even if i utter the words, it sounds silly. it was incendiary that day it was it was an insurrection it was violent there is no doubt that if the rioters had gotten their hands on mike pence or the other people they were after like speaker pelosi, it could have resulted very, very tragically for those elected officials. >> i mean, mary, it seems to me that you could ask mike pence, you know, why did you run? that is an answer we don't know. why did you get in the car those are two questions i don't think we know what mike pence will say why would that matter? >> i think partly it matters for the human story, stthe story ofa victim that they were talking about, right this does put a must human face. this isn't just about, you know, an intent to undermine democracy and undermine the rule of the people but this looks like an effort to get someone personally harmed. and to at least be indifferent to whether that person would be personally harmed. and for president trump that, meant his own vice president you hear it in his bullying words. you hear it in what mike pence wrote in it that excerpt that you read th there were people that could hear the hunl an side of the story, the fear for himself and his family, you know, as a believe that the vice president acting as president of the senate can be the sole decision maker as to your theory who becomes the next president of the united states and he said, yes i said are you out of your f'ing mind and he said words to the effect of there's been violence in the history of our country to protect the democracy or protect the republic we had an extended discussion, an hour and a half to two hours on january 5th and when i pressed him on the point, i said, john, if the vice president did what you're asking him to do, we would lose 9-0 in the supreme court wouldn't we? and initially he started, well, i think maybe he would lose 7 huf7-2 and then he said, yeah, we would lose 9-0 >> i listened no a few times this appears to be sworn testimony of eastman's knowledge of the unconstitutionality of the eastman plot which is coined a blueprint for a coup it is also clear from the testimony that those individuals listed that trump and pence are in the room when they have this conversation it was both unconstitution and he will legal. >> you had a number of data points ton day's show that close the loop on a yub of things, including more evidence that the trum am campaign and white house should have known or they lied about the election and lied about the election they should have known or they did know that the legal theory that they were presenting to obstruct the official proceeding it was completely bogus. so, these are the kind of loops that i think the prosecutor, you know, is pursuing. we already have so much testimony on the record that even john eastman, the architect of this, he acknowledges, yeah, we would lose 9 huff 0 in this supreme court. and to lose anything 9-0 in this supreme court, that's saying something. that's an extraordinary admission that this legal argument borders on the absolutely frivolous, and i think we already now have this under oath >> all right don't go anywhere. when we come back, the justice department's other big major unprecedented and historic investigation into the ex-president and his desperate last-minute ploy for the allies in congress and the house specifically to step in and bail him out of the classified documents probe. another sign that special counsel may be inching closer than we know plus, the dote minutian trial was going to unearth about tucker carlson's very, very, very nasty messages about his own bosses at fox among other things how years of offensive thoughts and words and comments said on tv were permitted. new reporting that these words from tucker that we haven't seen yet set off the five ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ way day! shop wayfair's biggest sale of the year now. get bedroom furniture up to 60% off. area rugs up to 80% off. kitchen and dining furniture up to 60% off. and free shipping on everything! plus, pay your way with a wayfair credit card. save big this way day now! ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ ♪ well, the stock is bubbling in the pot ♪ ♪ just till they taste what we've got ♪ [ tires squeal, crash ] when owning a small business gets real, progressive gets you right back to living the dream. now, where were we? 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>> no way. therefore is zero power here to do it. it is a constitutional crisis if congress tried to shut it down he is trying to do is he knows it's just where you over the criminal provisions of the actual, you know, intelligence here and he has -- it reads like a brief in the eventual case what he tries to say is, well, you know, people just swept away the documents at the beginning ignoring, of course, the whole focus of the crime that he may well be charged with have to do with his obstructing and not returning after. that's the point he is trying to sort of overwrite. again, as luke's reporting says, for political, not possibly legal reasons. >> we've been covering the strum story too long i'm old enough to remember that all the people that ran the intelligence agency that were hand picked by him were dummies. the they had to go back to school now he wants them to take over his handling of classified documents. will something he wanted doj to prosecute hillary clinton for. you have to suspend reality and divorce yourself from appreciating hypocrisy it's endless but it does suggest that he's afraid >> it really -- it really does in football, you have the hail mary passes, the hail kevin pass and it just reekz of desperation. it certainly seems to signal he knows he's about to be charged and in deep trouble otherwise. why would he try a gamut like this that as harry points out has no chance of actually succeeding at this time feels like he is throwing more spaghetti up against the wall here. so it certainly is not the act of somebody who is aware of the legal position or confident about the way this is going to play out, that he would run to his house amajority and ask for some sort of cover >> he's now a witness for the grand jury against you as he is in this case where do you think, because you're more skilled at reading tea leafs, where do you think jack smith's document investigation stands today >> well, before i opine on that, i just want to make two points for viewers out there that may not be entirely clear on this. the office of the director of national intelligence who this letter calls on to conduct the investigation has no authority to conduct a criminal investigation. so even if you were inclined to think that there was something, you know, some what ligit about asking for intelligence community to investigate, what they have the authority to do is what they've done which is examine the danger to national security from all of these documents having been improperly handled. they have no authority to investigate a crime. in terms of jack smith, you know, this is -- this is a case where i have actually felt, you know, some months ago was further along than the january 6th investigation. i think jack smith saw the value in talking to evan corchran. he pressed that through with a subpoena he took that up to the chief judge when evan asserted attorney-client privilege. overrode that privilege and got the testimony. so jack is still thinking what are the other, you know, strings i need to pull we know there was a new round of subpoenas, different people what had been at mar-a-lago to learn what they knew it does appear he had a flurry of activity recently again, i think the other guests got it right it shows that at least trump and his lawyers feel like jack is closing in on them this is a hail kevin this is really an embarrassing letter for attorneys to write. i know that a long time department of justice attorney is part of this team and he should be ashamed of taking part in a request like this >> wow i guess embarrassing lawyers is better than making them hire defense attorneys. thank you four all your great reporting to day harry and mary, thank you for starting us off. be sure to check out mary's new podcast. it will smamake you smarter the latest episode of prosecuting donald trump is out right now. after the break, it has been a mystery. why would fox news fire the top ratings getter thanks to old fashioned vek investigative reporting, we're much closer to finding out why and why now. what causes a curve down there? 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(seth) hi, cecily. i just switched my whole family to verizon. (cecily) really? oh, it's america's most reliable 5g network. (seth) and it's only $35 a line. (cecily) not that you're bragging. (vo) with verizon unlimited for $35 a line, your family now gets disney+, hulu, and espn+. all three included. verizon okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. together we provide nutrients to support immune, muscle, bone, and heart health. yaaay! woo hoo! ensure with 25 vitamins and minerals and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪ to say that tucker carlson had a long, long leash at fox news is an understatement of the century. the top brass seemed perfectly happy, breaking in ad revenue and the star anchor had borderline facist ideas five nights a week, the million dollar question, what changed? and why so abruptly? "new york times" today through reporting is getting us closer to an answer their source saz two days before the dominion settlement, fox's board and senior executives learned of private messages sent by atucker carlson the thought of tucker carlson be forced to testify on the messages reportedly helped set off aso, as we point out in the story, we have not seen the message. and we described it as far as we could describe it based on our reporting. and it was explosive it was incendiary and it was something that really was a catalyst here in a way that shed light on what was going on inside of fox as they were moving towards settling this lawsuit. and i'm sort of new to the tucker story having not covered it much, but having worked on this and done this reporting, it was clear to me that dominion lawsuit that's such greater impact than the huge dollar for year and the embarrassing disclosures that have been out in the media it really costs fox one of the top stars. it was because fox did not settle this suit that they had to handle or discover these messages even though the messages were never used at trial, their disclosure, the existence, the sum am simple fact that they had to be handed over was what sets in motion this major dismissal. >> i guess incendiary is what he did on the air of insinnedso it just feels liks to be something -- does it go beyond incendiary to criminal? is it misogyny is it sexual >> i can only describe the way that people, you know, reacted when they saw it and what they saw it, they didn't think it was survivable for the network to have known about it and to allow him to stay on the air i realize that is not a satisfying answer to many people >> but it sets off a -- how are you pursuing its release >> well, first of all, the times along with other media companies has moved to try and get what is underneath these redactions to have that made public. that will be an effort that goes on and we're trying through our own reporting and the reporting that got us to this point to try and bring to light what it is. it is a very fair question what is the straw that breaks the cap mel's back what is the point at which in the modern day conservative media landscape or whatever, what is the breaking point for people and for institutions? i really like to know what the text message says. to understand that, what was it that really put this over the edge >>en that is a technical matter. how is it -- i mean, the redacted material in some of the filings, such as the ones leading up to both sides filing for summary judgement were described to me by deminion's lawyers. they say it's very embarrassing. they were we dredacted how does fox not know something more hideous, either violent or racist or more horrible the than what he says on air until they're in settlement talks? >> that's the remarkable thing it is the sunday before the trial said it is supposed to start. and it's at that point that the board had asked to see the redacted messages. as they move towards the trial, the redactions may not hold. they become public at the trial. it's at that point the messages is sent to the board setting off this oh, my gosh moment that at that point the murdoches find out about it and this is all going on at the same time that they are moving towards that settlement they're in the negotiations with dominion about different dollar figures. >> so the dollar figure generated by wanting to keep this one text message from staying public >> i don't think it is that sing singular think by settling it, fox was able to prevent a potential moment at the trial where dominion had been able to use the redacted messages. they could have brought tucker carlson on to the stand and try to question him about that and that would obviously have been hugely dramatic impactful moment at the trial even if the questions related to texts don't cut directly towards, you know, the defamation issue i'm not even sure if the judge would have allowed that. but there was concern inside of fox and if they went to trial, if they move forward -- tucker on the stand. saying that i thought my boss was the c word >> among others. >> charlie sykes, and arrogance that he thought he was bigger than fox. he thought he was untouchable even by the murdoches. and in the end, whatever it is he did, the murdoches and the board looked at it and said, no, tucker carlson, you may be our biggest star you are'bi no, sir bigger than and you're out but to your point, given how awful some of the stuff was that he broadcast, given the way he this injected so much of the most toxic political rhetoric into our culture and fox management was okay with that, what could he have possibly said that would have crossed their red line and apparently in those text messages and whether it was calling the female ceo or another executive the c word, it was the result -- it was opened in tucker's very unceremonious demise and the way he was fired was certainly a tell there was no attempt to make it look ammicable there was no negotiations. he was given ten huff minute warminute -- ten-minute warning it was very dramatic if they were looking to avoid the dramatic courtroom scene this was dramatic. >> it feels like an 11-day week. and it's only $35 a line. 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- [narrator] save more on what they love and never run out with autoship from chewy. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. with the money we saved, we tried electric unicycles. i think i've got it! doggy-paddle! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (vo) red lobster's finer points of fun dining: only pay for what you need. the correct answer to starter or entree is who gives a shrimp, when you get both. introducing new dockside duos. get an individual-size starter and entree for just $15.99. welcome to fun dining. what can they have on tucker carlson? did he try to buy a fuel efficient car? does he have paintings that weren't by hitler? is it possible that they have pictures of him on a horse french kissing vladimir putin? should we be concerned they might know he dresses up as a drag queen and reads stories to queens i'm not saying he did those things i'm just asking those questions. why wouldn't we ask questions about things like that one weapon fox news has that they could use to embarrass him is every episode of his show [ cheers and applause that's for starters. >> it makes me laugh out loud every time he didn't get to testicular tanning, which was a big tucker thing. i can't imagine surviving that there's something that is as close as they can to describing, something more awful than everything he platforms on his show where does your head go when you try to figure this out >> well, it is what comes next, what comes next for tucker where does he go what does fox do tucker is not going away tucker is going to continue to talk i saw one report he had more than 50 million downloads on his badly photographed video from last night does he go into politics does he launch his own network we don't know. has fox learned anything from this the answer is probably no. he will be replaced by someone who will probably be less enter ta entertaining, maybe less malicious. it won't be an upgrade it's a moment. for those who wondered, was it worth it for dominion go through everything yes. we talk a lot on programs like this about accountability. amazingly, we had accountability not the way we necessarily thought it was going to be, but it is there. the fact that tucker carlson didn't see it coming, nobody saw it coming, is an indication that it's not always going to be same old same old we still can be surprised. >> i think -- to your point about the impact and the aftershocks of the dominion thing, it's the impetus that tucker carlson is the star i want the world to know i called my bosses the c word. you are saying, that's not the text that got him fired. murdoch wanted them to join hands and do a joint statement saying trump had lost. that never happened. the things that they want to do to yank the network out of the gutter never happened. where is fox today >> i mean, just thinking about this in the spring of 2017, my colleague emily steele and i wrote a story that led to the ouster of bill o'reilly. at that point, when o'reilly was taken off the air, i certainly don't think that we ever thought that the person who came after would be like tucker carlson and that all these years later, we would still be talking about the culture inside of fox. >> and abbey grossberg is set to depose tucker carlson for her trial. those stories continue thank you so much. it was another day of really dramatic testimony from e. jean carroll in new york. we are live outside that courthouse next. don't go anywhere. tide is busting laundry's biggest myth... that cold water can't clean. cold water, on those stains? 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(vo) with verizon unlimited for $35 a line, your family now gets disney+, hulu, and espn+. all three included. verizon our customers don't do what they do for likes or followers. their path isn't for the casually curious. and that's what makes it matter the most when they find it. the exact thing that can change the world. some say it's what they were born to do... it's what they live to do... trinet serves small and medium sized businesses... so they can do more of what matters. benefits. payroll. compliance. trinet. people matter. use some tic tacs in case i start kissing her. i just start kissing them. it's like a magnet when you are a star, they let you do it. you can do anything. >> whatever you want. >> grab them by the [ bleep ]. do anything. >> i'm never not repulsed by that it's stand in the trial she brought forward under a new law in new york that allows sexual assault victims to sue, even if the statute of limitations has expired. yesterday, her testimony was powerful at times very emotional. today she was cross examined by joe tacopina a brutal cross examination focused on her maemory lapses some exchanges have bristled with tension tacopina has faced pushback from the presiding judge who called some of the lawyer's questions argumentative and repetitive earlier, tacopina pressed her about her failure to recall the exact date of her encounter with trump. i wish we could give you a date, she said she never planned to go public with her claim she changed her mind after "the new york times" reporting about harvey weinstein she said she thought that telling her story might be a way to change theculture of sexual violence in a striking moment earlier today, whe lisa, i start with you take your time and take us through the day. >> reporter: it was extraordinarily powerful what i would say is, joe tacopina was gentler than folks anticipated. but he definitely tried his very hardest to shake up e. jean car carroll. he didn't. at one point she reclaimed her time, so to speak. he was trying to press her on why she didn't scream. he offered a number of alternative explanations that he says she herself had offered to try to show that she had offered inconsistent reasons for not screaming. eventually, she lost it and said, you don't get to beat me up for not screaming some women scream. some women don't he raped me whether or not i screamed she started weeping. he was taken aback and asked, do you need a moment? gathering herself with all of the midwestern gumption her lawyers told us she was raised with, she shook her head and so no she pushed back on joe tacopina forcefully and using the platform that she now has and being proud, as you just said, that she is finally having her day in court as 79 years old >> i know that tacopina thought to question that she didn't call 911. will the jury be made away of the statistics that the vast majority of rapes are not followed by a 911 call >> reporter: i don't know. we will hear from the experts that examined her. i expect she will talk about trauma and how that informs what people do, not only immediately after a sexual assault but over the course of their lives in terms of not only reporting but who they tell, why they don't act in certain ways, even why they might not remember certain specific details, like the date or the season or a year, and yet others are so vivid for them i don't know they will hear the statistics you mentioned i will tell you that e. jean carroll said to tacopina at one point, this is why women don't report rape, because they are afraid of being retaliated against. essentially, they are afraid of the treatment that you and your table of lawyers are giving me here and now >> what's so amazing, joyce, is that e. jean carroll is reliving what i have to imagine is one of the most horrific days of her life she's also carrying the burden of knowing how other women are treated in this circumstance it's a story that makes her heroic, i think, to a lot of women women, all of us watching. >> she's enormously brave to relive these moments publically. the strength of her testimony, i think, highlights the dilemma that joe tacopina faces as he cross examines her this is obviously not a criminal rape prosecution this is a civil case involving battery under new york law, defamation under new york law. nonetheless, when you have a rape victim on the witness stand, as the attorney who is cross examining her, you run two risks. if you don't push on the story, the jury will believe the victim who is testifying. they will believe she's credible then the other risk is that if you push too hard, you will anger the jury you will make the victim look sympathetic. it sounds this morning from what we have heard, obviously, there are no cameras, but we are reading words people are live tweeting from the overflow room, but it sounds like tacopina has managed to run afoul of both of those risks. he has not made any inroads into her testimony. she has told a compelling story. he managed to -- >> i'm sorry to interrupt. this is big. we have just learned and are able to confirm, mike pence testified before the grand jury today. it's a major update to a story we started with in the last hour garrett haake is live for us what can you tell us,believe, ad 9:00 a.m. to 4:30 this afternoon, testifying before jack smith's special counsel this according to a source familiar we are looking to get more information about the scope of the interview. the timing alone suggested it's broad. remember, this is the first time pence will have testified before any investigative body looking into the events of january 6 he never testified before the select committee he allowed his chief of staff and his legal counsel to do so he refused to comply with efforts by the committee to get his testimony. he wrote about that day in "the wall street journal" editorial and his in own memoir. a different story when you are sitting down answering questions under oath from federal prosecutors as we now know the former vice president did today. >> you mentioned what he wrote about in his book. he is verbose. the president mentioned planned for a rally. i thought it would be useful to call attention to the proceedings. want to know most, what we have never been able to fully understand, are the private conversations between pence and president trump that happened in late december and in early january, really in the lead-up to the 6th. we heard some of the conversations described by people who overheard them, like keith kellogg or ivanka trump. we never heard from vice president pence and certainly not from donald trump about the specifics of what were going on on those calls that could speak to mindset by the former president there's so much to that that nobody else knows on this planet, at least in a firsthand way, other than mike pence and donald trump without the shield of executive privilege, i can't think of any reason why pence would not be compelled to answer those questions today. >> the january 6 select committee did get us closer to every event that we saw with our own eyes but you are right, the last sort of shoe to drop is pence's testimony. we know trump called him the p word we know he called him -- i guess i can say the w word, wimp we know it was described as heated by no fewer than seven witnesses. it seems like what the select committee and the four criminal referrals was able to do is say, even without talking to pence and trump, we know he knew he lied he intended to obstruct an official proceeding. we know he knew the eastma as you say, the january 6 felt kind of up to their standard of proof that both of those things were determined. they proved those points they didn't have to prove it in front of a jury, in a legal context. jack smith, if he chooses to press charges in this whole matter, is going to have a higher standard of proof than did the january 6 committee. i think it's relevant that we remember this about pence. pence made his two closest aides available to the january 6 committee. mark short and his own private counsel. it's not unreasonable to think of this as something pence has kind of wanted out the investigation, tim hafey everything i know about how close you got to understanding january 6 and 5th and 4th, according to mike pence, i know from your meticulous work as an investigator who in your own words sort of encircled the witnesses you couldn't have access to. tell me in your own words how significant it is that jack smith spent the better part of the day from 9:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. today with former vice president mike pence >> i think it's very significant. i doubt there's new information that comes out the fact that it's coming from mike pence, the direct firsthand account, is very significant as you were discussing with garrett, we encircled the vice president. we had his chief of staff, his chief counsel, lots of people around him who shared with us what occurred. we didn't get the firsthand account. that's really important. the quality of the evidence coming from pence himself makes this significant while i don't expect a lot of surprises here in terms of the substance, i do think the fact that he is testifying and it's his firsthand account is a big deal >> let's talk the days in order. let's start with january 6 and then the 5th and the 4th on january 6, this phone call between pence and trump, that's most important tell me what is starting on the 6th jack smith would want to know from pence himself. >> i would start there i would have started there had i had a chance to question mike pence. i would start with the day of. the phone call in the morning. it starts with him finishing this letter that he delivers to members of congress, which memorializes the legal position he articulated he would take repeat repeatedly he reiterates it on the phone. we have this dramatic secondhand account of people that are watching the phone call in the oval office, including ivanka and keith kellogg. we would want to hear what mike pence will say about that phone call then we want to hear the harrowing minute to minute account of his lived experience inside the capitol he had to be scared. his aides were scared. hearing him describe the threats and what he was hearing and the lack of contact from the president, no phone call at all, and how frustrating that was they will want to go through the entire time line, minute to minute, of his experience that day. >> it seems, too, in terms of the dramatic testimony that the committee was able to present in the public hearings, that that footage of him running down the stairs is in and of itself evidence of a real threat. i traveled with the president protected by secret service. i never ran anywhere what is it that -- deepen our understanding of what it is jack smith is going to want to present to a grand jury about this evacuation, if you will >> we presented information that rioters came within 40 feet of mike pence over the course that was evacuation that's really dangerously closea brokered a meeting just one on one. what, if anything, the president said about his actions on january 6, whether he apologized, that would be useful information for jack smith that is a meeting we, the select committee, didn't find out much about, other than the fact that it happened. >> the committee also developed evidence about the days leading up to january 6 and that mr. short, mike pence's chief of staff, had a conversation with secret service he knew very well the day before, at least 24 hours before, that the vice president's life could be in danger talk about the events inside the west wing of knowledge of danger, knowledge of violence and how important that is if jack smith pursues the four crimes the select committee referred >> yeah. that's a good question mark short was exposed to information suggesting violence, not just violence but putting mike pence himself in danger that was commonly known inside the west wing. we presented evidence that it was conveyed to president trump. that informs his rhetoric at the ellipse on january 6 if he is aware there are people there angry at mike pence and he continues to ratchet up expectations s that pence has authority to take action, that informs the intent he is watching this mop b that knows are armed, they are angry the election -- he is launching them at the joint section which seems to be direct evidence of intent to disrupt that joint session. very, very directly relevant to jack smith's core question of the president's intent >> his state of mind in the obstructing of an official proceeding >> yeah. he has to prove, if he is going to bring a case, that the president corruptly, with specific intent, took action to obstruct, interfere or impede the joint session. he has to purposely do something that he hopes will disrupt that session. that's why his intent -- it's no question that the actions did disrupt the joint section. did he intend them to? his conversations with mike pence, awareness of what he was going to do, his red hetoric, hs inaction informs the intent. >> the committee developed a lot of evidence about the knowledge that the eastman plot was both illegal, it violated the electorate count act, and unconstitutional it would lose in the supreme court. you had a lot of minutes of public testimony and even more in the transcripts of the lawyers understanding both the unconstitutionality of that. how interested is jack -- pence sought outside opinions about whether -- how important is it to understand how much of that trump and pence talked about >> it's very important what was the evaluation of the vice president's authority that's easy. everybody he talked to said, you don't have the authority to do anything but open the boxes and accept the certified electors certified by each state. that's what the constitution provides he will be focused on how many times and how emphatically vice president pence conveyed to the president. that happened several times. multiple times where he said, mr. president, we have looked at this we don't have that authority i intend at the joint section to accept the certified slates of electors the more he told the president that, the more that informs the president's knowledge of the law, knowledge of the inability of the vice president to do it, which again informs his intent to take some action to try to disrupt the session. if it goes forward, mike pence does his job, joe biden is certified as president that's the outcome he is trying to avoid >> you have been generous with your time. one more question. mike pence writes in his book about members of the house and their plans and their objections and lawsuits, senators reaching out to him you have the anecdote that the committee developed about ron johnson wanting to hand the -- play mailman on the senate floor and get something to mike pence on the floor how interesting do you think jack smith is in the members of the house and senate and their role in trying to overturn president joe biden's victory? >> i doubt that he is looking seriously at charging members of congress if they really have speech and debate protection, if there's any reasonable basis for their action, i don't expect they are likely targets like the president. mike pence said in his book, as you noted, and as he said publically, his intention was to contemplate objection. the statute provides members of congress -- one senator and one member of congress objecting to a specific state may adjourn to their chambers to hear evidence. pence's line was, i will facilitate the hearing of evidence if anyone has evidence, they will have that opportunity he is adhering closely to the statute. members of congress, it is their prerogative to bring forth evidence no one to that point had shown any evidence that would cause doubt on the results, despite a lot of people looking for that evidence to this day, they haven't found such evidence. mike pence's line was, appropriately, i'm going to give members of congress the opportunity to make objections and if there's evidence, then that's the form in which it should occur not me rejecting a state and accepting false electors, but letting members of congress debate on the merit whether there was any fraud. >> former lead investigator for the january 6 committee, thank you for taking time for us i want to bring in ryan reilly who is outside the federal courthouse in washington you saw it with your eyes. describe the scene there today >> reporter: it was secretive. all day our producers were seeing activity happening around the courthouse a lot more security it seemed like there's a number of reporters camped out at the garage exit behind me. what they was they brought in -- him in through the garage entrance and went up to the third floor where the grand jury meets. wasn't in any area that was acceptable to the public for the day. they snuck him in. kept this quiet. as soon as they were able to move forward, following this legal resolution last night. there's been a number of individuals who have testified before the grand jury. this is one of the last people that we expect to get in before we reach -- we build some sort of conclusion here ultimately. a big day. quite something when they tore out of it and flashing on those signs. not the testimony that you typically -- the way that a typical grand jury person who is testifying necessarily gets to one of these events. >> as only a motorcade can legally roll ryan, thanks for your reporting. mike, a day mike pence never wanted to happen a day mike pence desperately wanted to happen >> he has been trying to avoid this for six years dating all the way back to when he was vice president and he was a key witness in the mueller investigation. but his lawyer, richard collins, was able to get him having to meet with the special counsel. there's no other major investigation of trump that we know of in which pence has been questioned, congressional or justice department or otherwise. in that sense, this is a very significant thing. he has never had to be under oath in the room with a prosecutor answering extremely detailed questions about exactly what went on in the room and what he saw. in that sense, this is a very different day for him than anyone else. to the point that tim was saying about the investigation, they talked to pretty much everyone else for this investigation except for pence pence has accomplished something here that he set out to do, which was, he took -- to politically try to protect himself. it certainly seemed like he was trying to make it look like he was forced into doing this it looks like a well orchestrated, calculated strategy where they raised legal questions along the way, tried to stop this, didn't get the decision that they ultimately wanted to -- from a judge. who knows what they wanted at the end of the day, pence can go out and say, i tried to go to court to stop this from happening. the court told me i had to go. this was my constitutional duty. >> the difference, i think, to your question of did he maybe want this -- i didn't want to bring up the p word, which is politics he is essentially running for president. the politics of his whole image, of his life, has changed basically, he was running for president as i was next to trump, i supported the administration one day when he departed from that and did something important for american history was that day of january 6 now by testifying, he can personally say, here is how i stood up for democracy here is how i stood up against seditious conspiracy here is how i stood up for the constitution from a political standpoint, this is the way he differentiates himself from trump so he has an incentive to testify. >> does that work in the modern day republican party >> he has to differentiate himself. >> i have a hangover from having -- his presidential aspirations died the day he refused to do what trump told him to do. hang mike pence is the mission statement of the insurrection. insurrection is the trump base that's, unfortunately, where the heat is in the republican party. he is never going to be president, because he didn't do what trump wanted him to do. politically, his fate is sealed. i don't know if he knows that. legally, i want to understand whether they believe that this was different than the congressional probe. they made a big belly hoo-hoo, talk to them this investigation represents a graver threat to donald trump. they don't seem to have thrown up as many hurdles >> they initially went to court to try to stop it. he has a new lawyer in emmitt flood. >> making people never talk. >> essentially he is one of the reasons that mueller runs into a brick wall when he was in the white house to the question here, pence did not just go in immediately after he was subpoenaed for this there were a lengthy back and forth. he did go to court to try and stop this. that ultimately failed he had to go in and testify. there was an effort on pence's behalf to essentially not jump at first sight to do this. >> my only point was explain that to the qanon shaman there were steps before they went in and testified. is there anything about the eight hours that strikes you you have covered a lot of investigations seems like a long day. >> tim has a better sense of what went on in this period of time than anyone else. you have to wonder and think, were there any conversations between trump and pence in which it was just the two of them? you have to think that there was something that was said at some point when it was only the two of them in the room. maybe pence never told anyone about or didn't tell many people about and had to answer questions about today. i'm sure that at some point in that questioning, he was asked about one on one interactions with trump who knows? i mean -- i don't know >> democratic congresswoman logren is here we have had conversations about how far the committee was able to push into the investigation we were on with tim talking about the investigative strategy of encircling the few witnesses who wouldn't talk to you what does it mean that jack smith now had access to one of the few people who the committee didn't get to talk to? >> i think it's likely significant. he had many of his top advisers, the vice president did, come in and talk to us they weren't always with vice president pence. there were times we know of, for example, the morning of january 6, where then president trump and then vice president pence spoke on the phone there were people who know all of the details of that conversation clearly, it's not just that. they had many conversations. they used to have lunch once a w week the ex-president tried to pressure mr. pence into violating the constitution i think they likely found out a lot more about those efforts today. it was a long time he was in there. >> if you had from 9:00 a.m. this morning to 4:30 this afternoon, where would you have started based on -- you were one of the four members of the select committee to make the ultimate determination about the four criminal referrals. where would you have started with your questioning in trying to ascertain trump's state of mind >> i think you start with what the ex-president asked pence to do and what indications he gave to pence that he knew was to overturn the election itself we know that many of the advisors to the then president knew that what they were suggesting was false they had no evidence that there had been any widespread corruption, that the election was legitimate how much of that was discussed with the -- between pence and trump? there were meetings pence was in that we didn't have complete information about. some of it goes to what efforts the then president made, what he knew and what his state of mind was. i think that the vice president has a lot of information my guess is, he went through steps to avoid testimony but as soon as he was obligated to testify, he went ahead and did that i think -- i have no doubt, really, that he answered the questions openly, honestly and fully. just because that's the kind of guy he is. >> the committee did a lot of careful work to establish three things really. especially with the pence staffers that was trump's knowledge of fal falsity, establishing that they knew they had lost, he knew he had lost he was told he had lost. trump's knowledge of illegality, the eastman plot the judge who pence consulted. the knowledge of violence. he talked to tim about this testimony that the committee elicited from mr. short, that there were conversations about mike pence's life potentially being in danger that took place on january 5th i have read in the transcripts that the national security advisor was talking on january 5th about, quote, violence on the hill a lot of knowledge of violence, knowledge of illegality and falsity. how important is it to use pence to try to further the grand jury's understanding that trump knew all these things, too >> we had -- as you know, we worked our way up the chain of command, so to speak so we had people who were working for the vice president who were able to fill in some details. hearing it directly from the principal, i think, would add an important dimensions to the grand jury's understanding of what transpired. we worked to prove a point as to the evidence i think the circumstantials, for lack of a better world, was overwhelming people who had hbeen provided information, but it was surrounding pence. it wasn't his direct testimony i do think the direct testimony is likely to be enlightening to the grand jury there's no doubt, given the evidence that the committee assembled, that the president -- then president trump knew he lost he knew what he was asking for was not lawful he did it anyhow he incited a mob to violence and sent them off to the capitol knowing they were armed. we were able to get that information and piece it together from different sources. i think the direct testimony of pence about his interface and communications with trump is going to be even more compelling than what we were able to piece together given that not everyone would talk to us. >> you said something important about working your way up. if jack smith adhered to that, what else could there be before a charging decision is made about trump? >> i don't know. certainly, there are other people who refused to testify. mark meadows refused to testify. he knows a lot he wouldn't speak to us at all mr. giuliani asserted attorney/client privilege repeatedly i think it was a stretch but he knows a lot there are other people involved who could shed light certainly, pence is a major witness. >> congresswoman, thank you very much for joining us on this day of breaking news joyce vance is with us joyce, charlie sykes reported in the last hour that in a podcast -- this feels -- if we are at the pence stage before the grand jury, we are near the end. do you agree with that >> a degree with it in the sense you cannot indict this case before you talk to mike pence. it's exactly what tim says you want to hear it through pence's eyes, before you get there. there are valuable things that could come from mike pence i might be tempted to start, if i had the opportunity to examine him, by saying, we have all heard this conversation that trump had with georgia's secretary of state brad raffensperger where he pleaded with him i just need you to help me mind the 11,779 votes i'm missing the question for pence is, did trump have a similar conversation with you? did he beg you to help him get across the finish line, which would give prosecutors additional evidence that trump knew he had lost but was trying to scheme to stay in control i think ben is very clear when he says this is close to the end. whether it's the absolute end, i'm not sure i would go that far. there are things you have to tie down before you indict you have to be ready to turn over your discovery. that's the boring procedural part you have to decide who the defendants are and who the witnesses are. that might involve some last-minute negotiating with people where you say, this is your moment. do you want to be in the indictment or testifying with us there are other pieces that you have to finish before you can nail this down to go back to the grand jury and seek an indictment >> mike, we have had conversations with some of your leagues about the work flow into the mar-a-lago documents what is the scheduling -- what does this subject about that probe? >> i'm not sure. it's hard to see what's going on from the outside as we sit here listening to this, i couldn't help but think of something that will sound obvious but i think is important. we are seeing the difference between what happens when a president of the united states is under investigation and what happens when a former president of the united states is under investigation. you think robert mueller was going to go to rod rosenstein and get a subpoena to put mike pence before a grand jury and that rod rosenstein was going to allow that to happen you are seeing the gloves come off on a trump investigation in a way that we didn't see before. some people may say it's aggressive some people say this is how a justice department investigation proceeds at the end of the day, a lot of what's going on in this investigation never would have happened if donald trump was still in the white house >> let me -- how much of it is the absence of the protections or the protectors in bill barr and rod rosenstein, whose role as a protector is a known unknown, how much of it is the egregiousness of the crimes? he plotted an insurrection in which hanging mike pence was the mission statement and hoarded classified documents >> in the mueller investigation, the obstruction prosecutors went after it as hard as they could they had a real time cooperator in the white house who was providing them with element real time readouts of what trump was saying, including in what is probably the closest obstructive act trump took i don't know, but the fact that trump was in the white house and controlled the justice department and so openly discussed firing people in the justice department -- >> including mueller. >> including mueller for going into areas that he did not want him to go into now today, you are seeing mike pence in a federal courthouse under subpoena from the justice department to testify. never would have happened. the question is, is the president above the law? certainly really hard to investigate him. it was hard to investigate donald trump >> we will have more on this breaking news story that mike pence today, from 9:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. was in a federal courthouse testifying before the grand jury that's been assembled by special counsel jack smith to investigate the events of january 6. don't go anywhere. we will be right back. 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at the end of the day, what he can talk about is the fact that donald trump saw this. he didn't know what the electoral count was. he doesn't know how the electoral college works. he knew there was one man in his mind that could save and preserve his presidency and overturn the rightful election of joe biden that man was mike pence. what did he do in that conversation or private conversation to say, you gotta do the right thing it's all that kind of conversation we have been talking about for six years with the way mafia don talks. you have to do the right thing there's negative consequences if you don't. pence can talk about the history of the presidency. two years ago he said x to me. i knew he wanted me to do y. that first year he said this he can testify to trump's state of mind in a way that almost nobody else can, because trump was trying to persuade him to violate the law, obstruct the official proceedings and commit a traitorous act kind of a trai against the united states. >> i think, mike, so much of what the committee left in terms of bread crumbs was right to the door of what rick's talking about, what trump knew even if you go through and look at the transcripts that dropped in the final hour of the select committee's existence, it's general mark milley having conversation with trump, who knew he was leaving. so much of it was basic -- did trump know he lost yes. did trump know about the violence and want to participate in that? where do you think the sort of heat or the time was spent with pence around those three issues? >> i mean, i think they probably tried to cover everything, because they were only going to get one shot at questioning him. this is not the type of thing where they're going to be able to go back time and time again to figure that out so when you look at that period of time that we were talking about, the fact that he was essentially in there all day, jack smith's -- whoever questioned him, those prosecutors know that it's an extraordinary thing to have a former vice president testifying before a grand jury. you better get the questions you have in because this is -- you're probably not going to get another bite at this apple so my guess is they covered as much as they could as possible to ensure that this was as fruitful as it would be, because this will probably be it. >> do you know that? has "the times" reported he won't be back tomorrow >> i do not know this is it -- >> but it's not like he's going to clear his calendar for jack smith. >> correct, and if you were his lawyer, you would say, look, this is a former vice president of the united states he came in and gave you a full day. no lawyer wants their client before a grand jury, and i think you probably, in term of a back and forth between a defense lawyer and a prosecutor or a lawyer for a witness and a prosecutor, you could probably use that argument to your advantage. >> joyce, we've seen mike pence as a politician, and we sort of have covered him and judged him. a lot of people covered him more expertly than me, but he does try to harness, you know, a mid western folksiness what is mike pence, the witness before the grand jury like or what do you want to bring out in mike pence the witness? >> you think you're going to use mike pence as a trial witness, what you want is you want him to be earnest, you want him to tell the truth, and you want him to tell all of the truth. and that's an interesting question here, because we know that this was lengthy testimony that suggests that there weren't a lot of objections. or maybe it suggests that there was some back and forth. some questions that pence didn't want to respond to, because we know that the judge had given him the opportunity to reject to specific questions on the grounds that they violated his speech or debate clause privilege since he was acting as the president of the senate. and it's an interesting question as to whether or not he was really forthcoming did he for instance try to protect conversations he might have had with specific senators while he was presiding over the senate and those are the sorts of issues that could make him -- if you're looking at a trial down the road -- i think i'm getting miles ahead of myself here, but if there's a trial where mike pence is going to testify against donald trump, which seems almost like an impossible fantasy land specter here, but if that happens he's got to be credible, he's got to be truthful, he's got to be believable if he's not, your entire case could crumble on your testimony alone. >> what do we know about jack smith today that we didn't know yesterday? >> well, one of the things we know -- what mike was talk about before, the world of difference between potentially prosecuting a sitting president versus an ex-president the office of legal counsel and justice department said it, since the clinton administration you can't prosecute a sitting president. but jack smith, it's like -- he's not a president anymore he's an ex-president i can go full bore seems like that's what's happening. >> are there any questions you think will ever be answered or light shed on, look at the speed with which jack smith brought these cases and they have been resolved there's no evidence merrick garland sought with any alacrity any of these cases before jack smith arrives. >> it raises a larger question here as we get closer to 2024, which is could this have started earlier? and if it didn't start earlier, why didn't it start earlier? it's sort of one of the great unknowns of where we are today we know that the justice department's january 6th investigation started at sort of the, for lack of a better term, the blue collar level of those that trespass and broke into the capitol. and it wasn't only until many months later, if not perhaps a year later, that they really started to bear down on those who were directly around the president. and because of that, it delayed everything i think that, you know, there's certainly enough former federal prosecutors around that would say that in the aftermath of january 6th or even right after trump left office -- let's say if you were at the justice department and you were so afraid to do anything around trump in the days after january 6th because maybe you were afraid trump wasn't going to leave or whatever, that the former federal prosecutors will recollect i'm sure easily say, well, why wasn't it that as soon as garland came in, they didn't start to look at the people around trump because based on what we know today and to your point about the success that jack smith has had in getting the testimony. >> yeah. >> there's certainly enough criminality of questions of criminality around trump that they got to this point, right? they got a former vice president of the united states to testify before a grand jury. >> jack smith was appointed september, october it's been not six months but for cassidy hutchison, does this happen at all >> yes, the january 6th commission which hastened garland to do something. >> cassidy hutchinson goes on tv, testifies for six hours about everything that happened in the west wing she points to mark meadows to, giuliani she says meadows says trump is not going to call them off on mike pence because he agrees with the insurrectionists. but for a cassidy hutchinson, do we have a jack smith >> putting aside how we got here, what we know today is there's enough questions of criminality for jack smith to have moved very quickly and successfully to question these people around trump. so, the questions of criminality that are there today that have gotten him to this point, in which some people say he's building momentum or whatever, those questions were there when merrick garland took over in 2021 so, why was it that it took so long to get where we are today it's one of the great unanswered questions of the investigation >> joyce, i'll give you a chance to answer and weigh in on cassidy hutchinson as a "x" factor if she doesn't testify before congress, before the country to mark meadows' knowledge of trump's enthusiasm for everything the insurrectionists were doing that day, do we have a special counsel? do we have an investigation into trump and his inner circle do we have mike pence before a special grand jury today >> you know, it's such an interesting question, nicolle, because without cassidy hutchinson, i think one thing we don't have is a january 6th committee in front of the house that has this tremendous public appeal and perhaps it's that house committee investigation that jump starts doj. i'm, you know, one of those prosecutors that mike is talking about. i was on record early. preet and i discussed on our podcast, the fact that doj wasn't investigating the first year merrick garland was on board. and the way you know that there's a prosecution under way and an investigation under way is exactly what we've seen in the last year -- we've seen witnesses subpoenaed to the grand jury and they protest. they try to get out of testifying, and that's how these sorts of investigations become public so it seems fairly clear that there was nothing going on, at least nothing overt, nothing as pressing as the way things have proceeded this year in that early juncture i do want to take up for what merrick garland did as attorney general just a little bit. i'm sure this will get me criticized, but there is some value in a prosecution in letting some time go by, in letting some of the evidence marinate, because you do find witnesses like cassidy hutchinson who have come forward. she midnight not have come forward march 2021 sometimes something comes across your email at midnight, a great tip, only because someone's been watching an investigation move forward, and they decide to help so it's tough to evaluate. >> joyce vance, mike schmidt, rick stengle, thank you all so much for sticking around and having a conversation none of us planned on having when we go

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