Hopefully rest and reflect a bit, we are here at deadline white house. Our thinking about the families 4700 miles away in ukraine. With this Holiday Season it must feel like for them. Christmas eve mark ten months since the start of a russian war that has not let up. Even now, as we head into the thick of winter. When russia unleashed that first air strike on february 24th, it was the largest attack on the european state since world war ii. It is a gut punch that capture the worlds attention more than any other, came less than two weeks later. Putins forces laid siege to the port city of mariupol, unleashing ripped through a Children Hospital and maternity ward, sending pregnant women fleeing for their lives. We are only beginning to grasp the scope of the atrocities there. According to the bbc, Satellite Images show that since june, more than 1500 new graves have appeared at a mass burial site inside mariupol. Devastating. And yet. And yet the twice impeached, disgraced ex president continues to flippantly claim, with no evidence whatsoever, that if he were the president , ukraine would be just fine. On the day russia invaded ukraine, trump released this gem. Quote, if i were in office, this deadly situation in ukraine would never have happened. To think, if only trump were still our president , there will be peace in ukraine. It is laughable on the face of it, but thanks to an exhaustive and riveting piece of reporting in the New York Times, we have reason to believe that trump was once again, saying the quiet part out loud. Jim ruttenberg of the time was reviewed hundreds of pages of documents, interviewed nearly 50 people in the u. S. And ukraine, and spent four hours building Paul Manafort investigation that unearthed a missing puzzle piece linking the 2016 Russian Election interference to russias invasion of ukraine today. Back in 2016, konstantin kilimnik, shadowy figure who the u. S. Intelligence believes is the russians, approached trumps then campaign manage jury Paul Manafort with a you scratch my back i will scratch yours proposal. Quote, a secret plan whose significance would only become clear six years later, as vladimir v. Putins inviting russian army pushed into ukraine. No loosely has the Mariupol Plan after the strategically vital port city, it called for the creation of an autonomous republican ukraines east, giving putin effective control of the countrys industrial heartland. The scheme cut against decades of american policy promoting a free and united ukraine. But trump was already suggesteding that if he would abandon the diplomatic status quo if elected, kilimnik believed trump could help make the Mariupol Plan a reality. With the plan offered on paper is essentially what putin is now trying to seize through sham referendums and illegal annexation. And mariupol is shorthand for the horrors of this war. And occupied city in ruins after months of siege. Countless citizens buried in mass graves. Our friend Andrew Weissmann, friend of the show, who led the special counsels prosecution of Paul Manafort would later call it an aha moment, when he realized the socalled Mariupol Plan, that the russians by dangled to Trumps Campaign manager, was quote, the quo qudus wanted for the quid of helping Trump Campaign. Russia had clearly revealed to manafort, and by extension to the Trump Campaign, what it wanted out of the u. S. , a wink and nod of comparable from president donald trump, as it took over ukraines richest region. Just, that let that Reporting Sink in. Control of the city of mariupol was the quote that Vladimir Putin wanted for the quid of helping Trumps Campaign in 2016. That is where we begin the hour. Joining us jim, rultenberg writer, at large for the New York Times in the sunday magazine. The man behind this exceptional piece of reporting. With us to take it through it all. With me on set, New York Times mark netti, who was part of the team that ran the New York Times pulitzer prizewinning russia coverage in 2017 and 2018. Jim, the piece is an opus. I read it three times now. Take me through how it starts. Because, it is the scene that just, it is like out of a spy thriller. Thanks for having me. And yeah, you know, when you go back and you look at the records that were unearthed in the special counsel investigation, the senate investigation, those investigations that we spent so much time hearing about through the lens of our domestic politics and you now know that there has been a in ukraine, it all takes on this different hue. There is this incredible scene that we sort of knew about at the time but didnt gather the significance of, where, basically that night, that Hillary Clinton is accepting the democratic nomination, Paul Manafort, President Trumps then candidate, his Campaign Manager, is receiving this message from this constant and kilimnik, saying i need to talk to you. He is literally writing this in moscow. And i have to come and talk to in person, and they arrange this meeting at, this famous cigar bar in 666 fifth avenue, owned by happens, Jared Kushner s family. And they meet their, a few nights later, to discuss this plan, the socalled mario plan that talks about basically granting what manafort himself would confirm to mr. Weisman, granted Putin Backdoor control over the most important industrial region of ukraine. And jim, what is established through the special counsel investigation is a united mission. And i think a lot of us in this country got wrapped around connecting the docks and proving a criminal conspiracy and into allowed donald trump and bill barr to say no collusion, of course there was a shared mission. Call it whatever you want. But the aha moment that you reported from Andrew Weissmann, that the quid pro was help in 2016 for help in seizing mariupol. Is that right . Yeah. Because the interesting thing that mr. Weisman later reveals, that the Senate Intelligence committee report, kind of went through the report that existed, not speculation and not a criminal case but the emails that were unearthed, the primary documents, and what weisman found was that all along, mr. Manafort and others, were avoiding talking about the meeting at the cigar bar i just mentioned. Or this idea of mario plan. This was sort of concealed from them, they felt. So, when weisman starts getting some new emails and some new information and he sees things that have been left out of what he has learned so far, from instance from mr. Manafort who was speaking at one point with prosecutors as they talked about a possible cooperation deal, he says, okay what are they hiding here . Heres what they are hiding. Once you realize that what they are talking about is the east of ukraine, once they are talking about how important the Eastern Ukraine is to putin and wants to establish separately that there was a russian meddling operation to effect social media and disrupt american politics, it all sort of came together for mr. Weisman. Do you think that the pardoning that trump ultimately issues to manafort, manafort and trump have still not fallen out, as recently as after the war began, trump is still talking about putin being a genius. He describes the plan to annex territory as brilliant. He says he would display the same tactics a wrong the border of this country. Do you believe that when trump says there wouldnt have been a war, it would have been because he would have considered trying to negotiate the Mariupol Plan . Well, i dont know what was in his head. I do know there was an argument that one could make that, had this plan gone forward, by the way before it got a chance to the Russian Investigation really kicked in, manafort was immediately in legal trouble. It really got stopped in its tracks. However, had that plan gone forward, arguably, putin would have gotten what he wanted and perhaps there wouldnt have been a war but the flip side of that is that perhaps, there would be no ukraine as we understand it. What any ukrainian will tell you right now is, that wouldnt have happened anyway because what we have seen is the ukrainian people would never accept that plan. But putins planning was never based on what ukrainian people really would do or would do anyways as we now know. So, but, yes on paper, this would have given putin what he wanted but also it would have rendered ukraine a broken democracy. You know mark, the times Russia Trump Coverage would win a pulitzer for eyes but there are an Unanswered Questions. The body of reporting was riveting, but in the end, the circuit that jim closes wasnt clear at the time. What do you make of this new information the stories that the times, they were like stopped the presses they, would hand them to me and we were talk about them for an hour. They were so jawdropping. That things trump said about russia publicly, the ties that manafort had, the revelations that color nick was associated with russian intelligence, the pieces didnt all fall in place as quickly as the revelations sort of cause all of us to stop everything we were doing and focus on the new questions they raised. I think the reason, one of the reasons jims reporting is so amazing is that it is so effectively tying together these major events that may, as the story unfold in realtime, didnt seem as connected as they do now. If you take the of the Campaign Election interference in 2016, russia stepped out of the election, the second major event being the first impeachment of donald trump, which was all about ukraine, recall that the person who has just been named Time Magazine time man of the year, zelenskyy, was at the time, the other end of the call that donald trump placed that was basically a shakedown call. The lynskey was this very green political novice. Not the churchillian figure he is now. The third of course was the south. That is why, ukraine is kind of the baseline running through this, but it does show that it is the prize, or at least a prize, that putin wanted. I think that is what is so important. It does show that all of this is lets take those three together. I mean, we went back and found, going back seven years, trumps disparaging ukraine. It seemed random, his ignorance was almost a cover or a wave of from what in hindsight looks very strategic. Russia hated ukraine and wanted to seize parts of it. Trump denigrated ukraine and try to withhold congressionally approved military aid. What was sort of the flashing yellow pieces of unanswered story for you, as you looked at the times rush and coverage during the Trump Efforts didnt see . I think that the volume of evidence that came out in the maralago investigation in the Senate Intelligence investigation paints the picture of you know, not that donald trump was groomed over the years by putin or an asset if jeb bush had run against Hillary Clinton in 2016, trump was not the nominee, you would have probably seen russian interference that was kind of 50 50. Looking at both sides. Bush was a traditional republican, on russia, hillary was the same way, and so you would have sort of, he would have sabotage both sides. I think though, that as trump starts winning primaries, it becomes clear he is the nominee. And he also starts surrounding himself by people who have been in putins orbit in different ways. Mike flynn, most importantly in Paul Manafort, and others. Up annapolis. Up. Annapolis many have forgotten. Then, to add on top of that, some of the things he starts saying publicly, for instance, as jim points out in this piece, he says, first of all he starts disparaging no, which is a two putin talking point. He indicates that perhaps it is fine if putin keeps crimea. These are all things that, if you are putin in the kremlin, in a way it is manna from heaven here. You are like, this is the guy who is running against Hillary Clinton, why wouldnt you put all of your chips on that side . That is what happens. That is the sabotage that happens almost exclusively for trump and against clinton. So, i think that was a unanswered question that i think again, is more cliffs lives now given what we see putins do you feel like though at why has been answered . The putin y is abundantly clear. Putins interest cheered on by trump. Do you understand the trump why . Why putin . I think that is still, if jim has written the second draft of more overtime, whether it is a, some instinct to zag where others zig in the Foreign Policy establishment, sort of admiration for authoritarianism, he certainly had been to russia before, he had sought properties there, i think it is a combination. But i think your question still is outstanding. Jim. Do you feel like the question, again, the reporting really goes the farthest in answering why trump for putin, but do you feel like you understand why putin for trump . Why putin for trump . Yes. In that trump was signaling to putin intentionally or not that he was going to be the best thing that putin could ever hope for in an american president , which was to end the traditional american role in the world. If there is one thing that putin wants it is to rebuild the empire, starting with ukraine. We know that if. There is one country above all others that are standing in the way of that, it is the United States of america. Putins own administration was very open that they viewed the classic u. S. Regime, certainly the Obama Administration, certainly the bush administration, certainly Hillary Clinton, as being the most important sponsors for ukraine. So, having that sponsorship out of the way, which donald trump was indicating as president he would at least consider that, that is earth shattering in putins world. So that is a major, major potential when. Interestingly, on the trump side, and what trump would say if he were sitting here right now, he would probably say a lot of things, but one thing he would say is that at the end of the day, he did one thing that the Obama Administration would not. Through all of this, he will eventually grant to the ukrainians, defensive weapons against the russians while all of this other stuff is going on. But there is a point in trumps presidency where now he is defending himself against, he is warm and cozy with putin and wants to be or is putins poodle, et cetera. So oddly, ironically, the politics of the u. S. Eventually will push trump to act more and more in hawkish fashion but also in this begrudging way where is he is at the same time making clear he blames ukraine for, he thinks that they were involved in hacking themselves, there is a Conspiracy Theory that ukraine hacked the u. S. And set up russia and not russia. Trump had flirted with that idea publicly. So it was just this crazy, crowded picture. But no matter what, putin still would have always rather had trump than any democrat or republican that is traditional. I think that as we head into 2024, i dont think anybodys opinion has changed on each other. Since trump listen to what he had to say at the time. Stick around, when we come back, why deserves a second look at in light of this new recording. The direct link between trumps perfect phone call with zelenskyy on what is happening on the ground in ukraine today. All of those stories and more with deadline white house that continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Go anywhere. Well, we fell in love through gaming. But now the Internet Lags and it throws the whole thing off. When did you first discover this lag . I signed us up for tmobile home internet. Ugh but, we found other interests. I guess we have. [both] finch lets go oh yeah its not the same. What could you do to solve the problem . We could get xfinity . Thats actually super adult of you to suggest. I cant wait to squad up. I love it when you talk nerdy to me. Guy, guys, guys, were still in session. Russia, if you are listening, i and i dont know what the heck youre talking about. Hope you are able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mildly by our press. Lets see if that happens. Anyone who was covering the Trump Campaign will always remember where they were the moment that happened. And as we all know, russia was listening. Shocker. Russia, are you listening though . Even though that is the only thing that those of the people who covered the campaign remembered and talked about in that fateful props conference it, overshadowed every thing else. Maybe in hindsight, the most important parts of candidate Trumps Press Conference that day. The same press Conference Donald Trump said that if you he were elected president , he would consider recognizing crimea as a russian territory in lifting the stench sins against russia. That was july 27th, 2016. The next day, july 28th, his Campaign ManagerPaul Manafort gets an urgent message from a man u. S. I