dick cheney actually thinks. liz cheney is out to -- is out to change the republican party in a fundamental way, where she says anybody who is with donald trump, anybody who says that -- who adheres to the big lie, all of those people are not real republicans. her position seems to be a position -- i know a lot of the viewers of this network hate her other positions on other things. but she is not just anti-trump, she is anti-trumpism. >> right. >> i think one of the questions that you would have to ask karl rove, is he thinks donald trump is toxic politically for the republican party. he wants trump going to be abecause he thistle cost seats in the house and seats in the senate. i am not sure that he has the same few about the rot at the core of the republican party that liz cheney and maybe her father do. >> i mean, let's be totally blunt if we are having this conversation about these two men. i don't know that we could ever know because of where karl rove is employed. a lot of what liz is targeting