that kept changing as one after another were disproven. i can't tell if that's supposed to be exculpatory for the president or inculpatory for the president. how do you read that? >> well, obviously he's gotten counsel. that ought to tell you something. i think it's important to ht remember through american it history we have had back channel diplomatic efforts. but what so distinguishes what happened this time from all the other instances is, number one, those back channels were closely coordinated with the regular channels, and that wasn't the case this time. and number two those back channels were in furtherance of american foreign policy. and in this case what mr. giuliani was attempting to do was at odds with american w foreign policy. >> right. >>re namely, standing with our ukrainian allies who, frankly, are the first line of defense against align intent and aggression on the part of the russians. >> all right, congressman denny heck, thank you so much. joining me now for more on the implications of what we learned,

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