Implementation of part of the decree. Expressed herkel own concerns but he insisted the america order makes america safe again. The end of an open world . That is our question today. It is a pleasure to welcome rieke havertz. She works on a set online with a focus on the u. S. Ban shows hemuslim is going to be exactly be president a lot of people fears. Relentless, shortsighted, and ill advised. It is a pleasure to welcome thomas leiser. Ands originally from texas a chairman of the organization republicans abroad in germany. Issays the meeting access necessary and right. With this measure, President Trump fulfills a campaign promise. Finally, it is great to have alan posener back on the show. Are protesting against the travel ban, but anyone with an israeli passport or visa is banned from entering 16 muslim countries. Wheres the muslim protest against that . At last count, five quarts in five u. S. States issued injunctions against this man, ban, against this executive order. Many legal experts say it file it provisions of the u. S. Constitution and treaty law, but you say it is right . Thomas to the extent a country can limit who enters it, i think it is correct. I dont think you should put a religious test on it, for example. It appears and the haste to get this out, that may have happened. I think we should be ablble to limit or at least that he who comes in to any country. France should. S. , have the right to police its borders. The president of the u. S. Does have pretty brought authority under domestic law to regulate immigration. Does he have a point . A point that every country has the right to control their own borders. A spin, andt ideology spin on this executive order and he tries to ban muslim peoples from entering the u. S. Of thes to reignite fear islamic world into the United States and the people who live in the u. S. I think that is very dangerous. Your Opening Statement seems to advocate a kind of titfortat theory. Because muslim countries ban israelis, the u. S. Is able to violate its own constitution and values. Is that a sound basis for an International Order . That is not what im saying. Im saying there is a double standard. They are talking about a muslim travel ban which is not the case. There are 56 predominantly muslim countries. Of these, seven are affected by the ban. One of these is iran which is a sworn enemy of the u. S. They go around chanting, and inth to the usa every day toronto the others are mainly failed states, mainly because of or syriatervention where iran and their friends are murdering people. Another is iraq or iran is taking power where iran is taking power. Were not talking about a tip for de titfortat. We are talking about double standards. There was a ban for members of the jewish state and there has been no protest in the west, as far as i can see. Except for people at myself, a tiny majority. Melinda you dont have any qualms about the constitutional or moral merits of this order . Alan no i dont. This executive order says, until inhave a vetting process there, which assures no terrorists are going to get through, we are going to suspend immigration rights. Why germany . Redogan ofs mr. Edito turkey not to let in any syrians. We are much worse. They get in, we keep them in camps. Why we should be angry, i dontt know. I am no friend of mr. Trump, but this is the wrong place to pick a fight. What mr. Let us hear trump himself had to say. He says it doesnt discriminate against muslims but aims at controlling a terrorist threat. President trump we dont want them here. We want to make sure we are not admitting into our country the very threats our soldiers are fighting overseas. We only want to admit those into our country who will support our country and love, deeply, our people. Melinda who is them . We dont want them in our countries . Rieke i think that is exactly the problem. Youre talking about double standards, but where is the double standard here . Just banning people from entering. Im not against having a vetting process of having people coming in, but just saying, we dont want terrorists. A terrorist . Udent theres not much you can put on this executive order. It has a lot of flaws, it is not thought out. I think Stephen Bannon has had a lot to say. He is the one who has been trying to be islamic phobic for years. We see a lot of flaws in this executive order. Who is them . There are individual persons who have a right to enter the u. S. I brought a copy of the order with me. I am actually a lawyer by training. I did read it through to the end. In fact, as you mentioned, it does make an exception for people from the seven countries to religious minorities and have been persecuted on that basis. That would in fact be christians. It makes an exception for christians. That is beginning to sound like a muslim man. Ban. Thomas i think everything is a degree. F i take it it could be against the moslems. To me, that is not how you should do it. Linda that is what President Trump promised. He woulde promised restrict the influx of people from certain countries, primarily certain religions, until i think the quote was, we can figure out what is going on. Thatda do you worry about being in violation of our constitution . We were based as a country that people should not be discriminated against by religion. Thomas i am the son of immigrants. I moved back fofor my parents wo moved the other way. I think that is a valid concern. Although i think we should vet strongly he or she who we let into the country, i think religious backgrounds should not be a test. Atinda lets take a look who is being affected by this order. To escape from syria, but many of their relatives live there. The husband says the restrictions announced by the Trump Administration has made his familys future more uncertain than ever. To affect me in a very negative way because im not going to bring the rest of my family. I have my brotherinlaw and my cousins from their. There. We are communicating with them and they are dying. We have to do something for them. Making lifecies are difficult for many refugees. Will basic rights be sacrificed as part of the war on terrorism . Melinda among the people being denied entry, right now, or people who have worn the u. S. Military uniform. As translators, drivers for u. S. Military forces in iraq. People who have been vetted through masses of interviews, complex bureaucratic procedures. They are being denied entry into the u. S. Do they not have a right to American Protection alan . Alan i presume they do. These are exceptions. Im not saying this ban is well thought through or well executed. Pushedeptions are being into the foreground by people with a different agenda, saying anyone has the right to come to the u. S. And they do not talking about differentiating it religious minorities, if in the 1930s jewish people had come from germany, do you think this would be treated the same . I think not. Unfortunately, president roosevelt did not. What he should have done was say, we should take the people who were most persecuted, namely the jews. It is not uncommon cemex or not common sense we should take everyone. It is obvious christians are thanring more in syria mainstream muslims. Not goinge people are to pose a terrorist threat. Whereas the others might. That is common sense. That doesnt make sense, just because they might come up with a ban on all of them. Alan up to recently, when you travel to israel, if you were born before certain time in germany, you were given a different kind of screening then after world war ii. Actually haveght been a not see because such a large percentage of the german population worker review might say, that is horrible but i think it is common sense. Rieke why not include sauaudi arabia in this band . Those who have actually have been terrorists in the u. S. Have not been from the seven countries saudi arabia has a very good security force. I would like to come back to the list of countries in a second. The way that this executive order came into being is entirely different from the normal process. President trump broke with established procedures for executive orders. Normally, they are worked out in complex cooperation over a time of weeks or months. You say the order is necessary and right. Is this the right way to make policy . As a very conservative fellow and someone who would like to think he is a deep thinker, i think caution and Due Diligence should be the order of the day. I dont to get was in this case. It seems like this order went through very quickly and now they are doing a lot of backtracking to make changes, to come up with the exceptions that should have been in the first place. You have got a member of the german parliamament who allegedy can no longer travel to the u. S. And he has been to practically every state in the country. In the u. S. To me, that is nonsensical. He has an iranian passport, but clearly not a terrorist. Regardless of the formal legality, is it doing damage to the standing and reputation of the u. S. Abroad . Exactly for reasons like the one cited . Damagei think it does do to the u. S. Because it was not well crafted it was hasty. No one really thought about the consequences. Also, domestically. Promised it during the campaign so now he can say it is a promise i keep. A societyally want more fearful than americans already are . I dont think he wants that but maybe he does and that is why he did it. To the lets turn effectiveness of the immigration order, appoint a couple of you have mentioned. The order is formally entitled protecting the nation from foreign terrorist entry. Lets take a look at which countries it affects and how. Libya, iran, syria, somalia, sudan. The countries listed in the executive order. But no one who committed an attack in the u. S. After 9 11 cacame from m any of these countries. At the same time, the u. S. Has carried out air or drone strikes in five of the countries this year. Measusuresic security have been stepped up sharply since the attacks in 2001. 19 9 11 h hackers came from saudi arabia. The other four came from egypt, lebanon, and the uae. The u. S. Has strong economic ties to saudi arabia, the uae, and several other muslim majority countries not on the list. This raises questions about possible favoritism. What is behind President Trumps very public snubbing of the muslim world . You said the order is necessary as well as right. But none of the terrorist acts committed since 9 11 in fact have been perpetrated by someone from these seven named countries. At the figures, since 9 11, 123 people have been killed in the u. S. By terrorist attacks, islamic terrorists, as opposed to 230,000 killings overall. If President Trump wants to prototect americans, when he do well to formulate executive orders on gun violence . I think that is a different conversation but one could argue that. With regard to this order, the concept is we should protect our borders and that people who come in. Picking outure these seven countries was the correct thing to do and there will be much gain by that. If you catch everyone who comes in and give them a strict vetting, i think that is what should happen. The strange absences on this list, what you make of that . Saudi arabia and egypt, where the pilots on 9 11 came from. Pakistan and afghanistan, two countries where extremist terrorism is deeply rooted and has been for a while. Isnt there a strong argument this order in fact completely misses some of the most dangerous countries, and if anything could serve as a propaganda for recruiting jihadists . Rieke i think there is a good point saying saudi arabia is a close ally to the u. S. You dont want to mess with that because it is an important player in that region. There are also economic reasons why mr. Trump chose to include certain countries into this band. Course, i dont know what he thinks if that was the reason behind it. Clearlye serially some questions to be asked. Melinda what you make of these rather glaring exceptions . You told us why you think saudi arabia is off the list. Egypt . Pakistan . Alan are you saying come up with them on the list . Are you saying he is not doing enough . Melinda i am asking you, is this ineffective order . Naming the seven countries that happen to be those worn by violence, where the u. S. Also has conducted bombing operations. Where the u. S. Also has s some responsibility for massive conflagration in the region. Other countries not on the list. , badly vevery arbitrary crafted, rather chaotic description of where potential threats might come from and you are still thinking it is an effective order . Alan i dont know if it is effective. If you ask for the rationale of this melinda i am asking if it is effective. If itwe dont know is going to be effective. These are the countries, with the exception of iran, where there are failed states. Where the u. S. Cannot cooperate with the Security Forces as they can with egypt and saudi arabia because there are no Security Forces on the ground. Libya is a fight them fieifdom of warlords. We could go through these. Yes, in the case of libya and syria, the u. S. Under president obama theres a great response ability for the destruction of these case. In the case of syria, because they did nothing against mr. Assads aggression. Yes, the u. S. Theres responsibility. Yes, they should have done more but that was under mr. Obamas watch. Whereu have failed states the u. S. Cannot Work Together with security agencies and they have to find these vetting procedures. Is the right answer to say, no syrian refugee iss allowed into the country . Been on the show and you have heard me say this. Should have europe thea nofly zone to protect refugees in syria. If you topple regime, like we did in libya, you have to go in like we did and iraq in iraq and make sure there is a stable regime in place. You cant just pull out like mr. Obama did. Melinda you have set it all. Benefits. The order has real cost in terms of u. S. Standing. Benefits, no terrorist attack has been perpetrated in the u. S. By people from these countries. What expected benefits do you think will come from this . Costslets talk about the first of all. This is not going to recruit terrorists. They are not recruited because of anything we do. They attack us because they hate us or what we are. For the fact that women are emancipated in our countries, not because we dont admit them to our countries. They hate us for we are and what we represent. As far as the cost, it is zero. Melinda that is not the opinion of john mccain. You are a republican to do you not give any credence to his work or Lindsey Graham . This is the wrong message. Thomas i tend to agree with mccain, senator mccain and senator graham. I think the message should have been, we will strictly enforce our borders. Leave out this country, that country or the other. On the other hand, there is a precedent for Something Like this. President carter excluded iranians that when my hair was black. Stopped aent obama lot of immigration temporarily as well. From iraq. Melinda temporarily. Thomas this is allegedly that, too. Melinda except for syrians. Let me come back to the title of our program. Which poses the question, whether this is the beginning of the end of an open world. I would like to ask all of you, other countries have some of them been quite vocal in saying, they dont think this is the right way to go. Including your own country. The chancellor spoke on the phone to President Trump last thinks thisying she is the wrong approach. What if anything you think other countries should be doing . You think it is having any impact in washington . Rieke i dont know if anything has any impact on donald trump. It doesnt seem to be that he listens to a lot of people except for his close aides. Outspoken ind be your critique of this. Global affairs are so important. It is very difficult for the german chancellor because of there are close transatlantic ties. You have the responsibility to say, this is not wellcrafted. This is not the way to go. This puts america back into being more isolated. There is a chance it could be more isolating. I dont think that is a good way to go. Alan she is playing to the public here at home. This is like a free kick for her. To germany is sending people afghanistan as we speak. What right do we have to criticize the u. S. . Melinda you are not concerned a Trump Presidency could mark the beginning of a fortress america approach . I am concerned because he has pulled out of the transpacific agreement. Melinda in a word, the beginning of the end . Thomas i would say that. At the moment, it is uncertain. You have a fellow not playing by any rule we know and that is one why we are so upset. Not following a rule is not the german way to do things. Melinda thanks to you out there for tuning in. vxnolfqaooo anchor this week on globobal 303000, we track k down a mystl creature whose habitat is under threat. In the philippines, we meet a chef transforming leftover food into tasty new dishes. But first, were off to kenya to find out more about daytoday life in the slums. Today, over half of the worlds population live in cities. Thats almost 4 billion people. The u. N. Estimates that ther