Ga, after brexit is it the end of the eu . Im joined by three excellent panelists. The editor of the opinion page el, in berlin, and he says brexit could be good for europe. Also, derek scully of the irish times who argues brexit is a failure of the european class. And, welcome to hannah cleaver, who joins us straight from the dw news desk. It is difficult to tell who will be the biggest loser from brexit , britain or the eu. I would like to begin with you, martin, because you are the optimist in our ranks today. You say that brexit could be good for the eu. Please explain how. I would love to. Theres just one aspect im optimistic about. The aspect i am optimistic about is what happened in the u. K. Vote. The brexit some people predicted a recession. So people in all of europe, coinental europe, now see what brexit, but going out means. So the alternative, you have europe. It is now as clear as it ever was before. You are now prosperous and not a sovereign as you could be, or you are sovereign and running into recession, so this kind of alternative was not as clear as it was before the brexit. People thought there would be a classless society, and we could be sovereign and rich. And now you see, this is not going to be as easy as this. I think it is an eyeopener for many people who thought maybe, france and austria and other countries as well, we uld go on the same path and be prosperous and sovereign again. This would not be true, and you see that in the u. K. Peter an optimistic take. Hannah, i sense you might be a little more pessimistic about how the brexit vote might impact the European Union in the weeks and years to come. Hannah the idea that the british economy has collapsed in two weeks is a little premature. I dont think it will be that dramatic. That was the argument used by a lot of the remainers, that you come out of the eu and every thing will fall apart, and within months we will live in the stone age. Thats not going to be quite the case. What could be positive for europe is, if brexit really does happen, which ianother question we could discuss, but if brexit really does happen, the European Union had better get their act together. They better stop being so gray and boring and distant from people, and gray and boring and unresponsive to these nationalists and national demands, and they had better get their act together and had better start reacting. They had better become the europe that actually has managed to inspire people in the u. K. You saw them demonstrating, sadly too late, but after the brexit vote you had people standing outside westminster with little flags and hearts, instead of the stars of the European Union, saying, we love the eu. It can be a real force for progressivism in the continent, but if it stays boring, gray, and old, its not going to manage that, and thats one of the good things that could come out of brexit, if it forces the eu to actually become what it could be. Derek heres a tweet from the french ambassador to washington. He said, the eu must be saved from unraveling, and then warned it is now reform or die. Is that too dramatic, reform or die . Hanna i dont think it is. You have to reform, or other countries may end up leaving, and even if they do not leave in such dramatic fashion as what has been voted for by the u. K. , i think the rise of these populist, nationalist parties which are building their support on this kind of increasingly widespread feeling among many people that the eu and also their National Governments are totally out of touch and not doing anything for these people, that kind of movement will expand, will increase. Derek my take is, what has to happen in the eu for some thing to actually change, immediately afterward we had a shock and eu ders saying, we answers need answers to the pressing problems of today. That was stage one. Stage two was offering up what they always have. People in eu said we needed more europe, and people in berlin said they needed to bypass the European Commission that takes too long, and they will all just head off on Summer Holidays now. So how pressing does the problem have to be to address it . That worries me. We had arguments about how we handle youth and employment, how we ensure common security, but the sooner it gets down to brass tacks, what are we prepared to give up to get something bigger back, greater, crossborder cooperation to drive down youth unemployment, for Border Security . The Member States say, we are not giving up that, and then they blame brussels that nothing has happened. Everyone is accusing everyone else of playing games, of playing clinical games. Everyone says, now is not the time for sunday sermons, going out and trusting the same things we have heard before. So if i was a 25yearold in britain worried about the future in the European Union, i would not be comforted by what i have andd since the brexit vote, for someone living in berlin at my age, i wonder if something has to collapse so Something Better can come out. I see the same old games. A lot of blaming brussels, and a lot of old wine in new bottles. Malte we cannot fall back to the same rhetoric. Brussels is not a dance club, which has to be attractive or fun. Politics on a supranational level is kind of boring. You have to deal with boring stuff, that not everyone is interested in. Its not the job of brussels to entertain people and to make it more attractive. Thats not their job. They have to make policy. The union came out of the financial recession and the Global Financial crisis quite well, with some exceptions, but countries like spain and ireland, and we have trouble with greece and so on. But given what we had in the financial crisis, the politics were not so bad. We had tons of summits about youth unemployment and what to do about it. You had programs, projects, things like this. So its not that something is lacking in terms of policy, and that we need more and more entertainment from brussels. I doubt that will be the solution. Hannah i dont think we are talking about entertainment. We are talking about showing people what the eu does. We had these ridiculous scenes from areas in wales, areas that would be back in the stone age if it had not been for european money, voting to leave. You do have, libraries and schools and roads and bridges and stuff, all funded by the eu, crucial things, and people think it is dull. This is the stuff keeping people out of the salt mines. Malte thats why i think the brexit is good, because you cannot convince people. Billions of dollars is put into the machine in brussels to show people how the European Union works, but it seems to be stronger as a deterrent. Just shows what happens when you pull out. Then you have no bridges, going out of investments, things like this. This could not be more convincing. It is an uncertain situation and we dont know whats coming. But have you heard one new idea . Malte it will work,. Ven with the brexit we dont need to react. Out, and, they pulled lets see what happens. If they really want to pull out, i dont think they will be cut off. It will be bad for europe, but even worse for great britain. Anyone i dont see willing to look. They are heading out on holidays. Malte what would you change, aside from attractiveness and not being boring . Derek i would say, why is it the comp addition commission has done one thing after another making people realize that the yous helping, and how do apply that elsewhere . I would go to berlin and stop saying we need to bypass the European Commission. We need to work amongst ourselves. Because berlin would be the beneficiary of that. I would go to Martin Scholz and ask, would you please retire . He has been writing the gravy train for 25 years. Then vote derek this generation of people has failed. This is a failure of the current leadership of the European Union. Peter lets break it up for a second. We have three voices, including martin schultz, and then we will talk some more. We have to renovate the whole structure. Commission, counsel, parliament, citizens, they all have the same problem. We dont know exactly who does what, and who is liable for which decisions. We have become an expert in deciding the amount of flushing water in the toilets, and also the level of says it is that a local Football Club can receive from a local government. I want to turn the European Union into the union of europeans. Thats why in the future, we have to get better at implementing the decisions we have made. Peter hannah cleaver, what do you make of that . [laughter] hannah a lot of boring white men in suits, isnt it . [laughter] you do up on juncker, need to make a europe of europeans, and that is one of the very small grains of hope that actually came out of this brexit night and the days afterwards, was these young people who were demonstrating outside westminster. All the social media, its temping to say it is rubbish, but this is how people communicate these days, how different social movements are born and continue. People were saying, they love the eu, and you can have europeans, you can make it exciting, it should be exciting. This is a europe that has done so much for so many people, and has really i mean, look at eastern europe, pulled a lot of people out of poverty, pulled people into this community of nations where european values, which sounds awful as a phrase, but actually is exciting. Its about human rights. Its about freedom of movement. Its about freedom to determine your own future. It is exciting stuff, if you dont put it in a gray suit. We are the erasmus generation. We took it off for granted, and now people in britain, particularly in the research sector, immediately the porticul lis has come down on research funding. Nobody will get research funding. We are a very apolitical generation, and maybe this is when we realize politics matters because we are feeling it ourselves, so perhaps that is a reason to be optimistic. Peter i was grateful for an article you wrote in the irish times, quoting wolfgang charlotte, saying, more democracy wolfgang schaeuble, saying more democracy, more transparency, and then you wrote that he said that in 1994. The president of the European Commission said, we cannot continue the way things are, the crisis is deep. When he say that . 2005. This point, we have heard it all before. How do we get beyond that . Every time a National Politician blames brussels for something happening, a red light has to come on and everyone has to say, it is not brussels, a building that says no, it is a bunch of National Politicians who come together and failed to agree and go home again, and that is what happens when brussels says no. Every time that happens, we need a flashing light, saying, hes lying. The other idea is of pooling sovereignty creates a new level of sovereignty. This idea that handing over his losing power. Thats not how the world works. So if you can explain to people how those two things work. Brussels is holding us up . No, its the National Politicians to lock them in the room uil they decide. No toilet breaks. [laughter] the other, explain to people that pooled sovereignty is a gain. You are not reducing it, you are expanding it. People in britain are particularly worried we are handing something over, and losing it, but by pooling it you are gaining, and that has never been properly explained, in my view. Peter what is your take . Malte i completely agree with that. We just have to tell the people what europe means. Europe means a union of 28, for maybe 27, sovereign states who decide that maybe going along and giving up a little bit of sovereignty each by themselves will make the whole system stronger. Ass was not as convincing the europeans thought it would be. So that gave rise to the tensions of thousands and thousands of people. Maybe we can pull out, be sovereign and rich again. We might see now, with brexit , that this is just an illusion, and maybe one that has to be shown, like what i said before. It was so overwhelmingly convincing, for all the people socialismtrated for until they saw what socialism really meant. On, whichulag, and so is why we dont have people dancing in the streets wanting socialism anymore, because they saw what it means. So maybe the brexit as it turned force will do the same. Once it is realized, you can see its not working. Malte Martin Peter Martin schultze, came out this week and said the Eu Commission needs to be turned into what he calls a real government. Is there an appetite for that around europe, or is that pie in the sky . Hannah a bit of both, i would say. [laughter] you want to have effective decisions being made, you know, with people having, ideally who you know they who they are. That matters for National Governments and national media, to take these people seriously, if they are not just sitting in a building in brussels somewhere, where nobody knows where they are. They have got to become visible. An attractive idea to have decisions being made that actually mean something. You have this rise of nationalism, which you have seen not only in the u. K. , but in france and also other countries. I would say before reaction from brussels after brexit was a disaster. It was a defensive reaction. We have to change, we have to reform. As if brussels had made the mistake. No, 52 of the british electorate made a mistake for voting for brexit. That was the mistake. This sounds like old familiar brussels arrogance. Brussels,s is the old everything will be different from no one. That was very much missing from brussels these last days. Derek we have this binary argument. Anyone who is anyway proeuropean, we need a brusselsbased European Union where everyone comes together and the European Commission is a referees of the big countries are not too big and the small countries are not too smal. Small. Berlin said, this commission, who knows what they are . Thats another model. They set up a tent city beside the European Commission and do their own dealing. The problem is, that hands to the brexiteers the argument, you can have junckers faceless europe or a berlindominated europe. Which would you like . This will unfortunately spread. Marine le pen can just wait, go out on her Summer Holidays, because the people in brussels and berlin are doing her work for her. Malte you are completely right. This is the dilemma that brussels is in now. It adds up to the decision to contractthe trade with canada to a national referendum. I think it is a bad idea, but it was the necessary idea of the brexit. This is the dilemma that brussels is in right now. Already mentioned that young folks in the u. K. Have been demonstrating their passion for the eu. Lets have a look at that, before we continue. Whatever the result of the referendum, these brits want to remain. They believe the eu safeguards democracy, plurality, and peace in europe, assuring war will never again break out between its nations. To them, the european project also symbolizes the rule of law, and respect for human rights, along with the freedom of movement the chance to study in other european nations, to work abroad, or to pursue research there. Now they are worried that their lives and those of their children can only change for the worse. They feel left out, and believe strongly the people of the eu are stronger together. How can this kind of enthusiasm be reawakened in others, who are disillusioned with brussels . Peter thats the question, derek. Is it all about leadership . Does europe need charismatic leadership . Derek i think it needs leadership from below. A lot of us, european elections every couple years i have been meeting with people in berlin. The erasmus generation saying, we have been taking advantage of this, and it is falling apart. A british woman who just had a baby, living here saying, what will happen next . Theres the notion that it has to get beyond social media. I think a lot of people think that if they Say Something on social media, they have had their say. No, you get out on the streets, and out on the streets on a regular basis. In germany, theres a history of the monday night demonstrations. I would like to see that. If i am a 65yearold person on the gravy train, whether in berlin, brussels, dublin, or elsewhere, i will just continue on, hope to coast through. Whereas if you are a 30yearold, you dont know what the next five years will look like, for the next 30 years. Ofmaybe its the tion these european leaders have had their day, though i look at the next generation bernese merkel and schultz, and i see lots of people who have spent their entire lives in politics and maybe have never had a job outside of the political bubble, so i worry we dont have leaders in the 40 plus generation at this time. Hannah britain sadly lost a really good one, jo cox, who was killed. People like that. Peter thats a very interesting point. Hannah somebody, she was not just a politician. She had done amazing stuff outside of politics, and then went into politics with conviction, with really broad, progressive, humanitarian push, and she would have been fabulous. Some of the like that. There are, there must be other people like that. We cannot just have had the one and had some but issued her. That would have been had somebody shoot her. That would have been her. People like that need to be encouraged to come into politics. If you have somebody like her instead of, i dont know, any of these boring men in gray suits, then you can inspire the kind of enthusiasm that is needed to coast over the difficult, boring, complicated stuff and keep your eyes on the prize, which is this open, humanitarian, progressive europe which we can create. Thek i personally think men broke this. Boris johnson, michael gove, cameron, and merkel has been a voice of stability in the last two weeks. Opinion,y, who divides at least she has come out and remained calm, and ms. Sturgeon up in edinburgh. Maybe the time is, you boys have had your day. Obviously you dont want to be antiman, but i have seen a lot of nonsense being spoken by men, and a lot of common sense being spoken by women in the last two weeks, and that wou