Seeing across the european continent. Our question this week here on quadriga, is this. Crisis in austria, who can stop europes drift to the right . To discuss that question, im joined here in the studio by three seasoned observers and analysts. Let me introduce them to you. Beginning with ewald konig, a freelance correspondent and austrian himself, who has been covering austrian politics for decades now. He says, it is not only the refugees. There are many other reasons for austrias and europes drift to the right. Also with us today is alan posener, a commentator with the berlin daily die welt. Alan says, nobody cares who governs a small country like austria, but germany has a responsibility for the whole of europe. We cant afford viennese coffeehouse politics, he says. And my third guest is ulrike guerot, of the european democracy lab, who believes that, a wildfire is sweeping across europe. Its taken in hungary, and now poland, and now austria, with france looking likely to be next. Ewald konig, i would likike to begin with you. Without any disrespect whatsoever, i would like to suggest that austria is not exactly a big country. It has a population of fewer than 10 million. I would like to ask you to explain to us how and why it is having sucuch a huge impact at this point in time. Ewald well, we have a long series of grand coalitions in austria. Therefore, i say this is not only the refugees and mass migration, that we have a drift to t the right wing, but also people are not satisfied. They are fed up with the political system, with the two bigger parties that are not big anymore, and with the wheeling and dealing. They are fed up with many other things, beginning from the globalization, down to the interior politics. Peter youve touched on just about every subject we will be talking about inin the next 25 minutes. I would just like you to give us an idea, from the people you have been talking to in austria this past week or so, how great is the sense of crisis in the country, ahead of this crucial election on sunday . Especially with the world looking on, of course. Ewald i think many people hope that the candidate of the e gren party officially he is independent, but he is of the green party for many years that he will make the election. Although, there is a big gap between the first candidate of the socalled blue party. I can imagine that many people in austria were so frustrated that they wanted to protest with the election, and they voted for norbert hofer, and then they were shocked about his High Percentage in the result. Now maybe they do not vote in this big mass, and all the other candidates who failed are in favor of mr. Van der bellen. Although, mr. Van der bellen, he is not the ideal candidate as well. A couple of days ago, there was a show on television, private tetelevision in austria, and it was embarrassing. It was done without a moderator, just the two candidates. It really was embarrassing. It is a damage for this president ial function. Peter ok. Alan posener, ewald konig playing down fears in austria. You have dismissed events in austria as the politics of a viennese coffeehouse. I would like to draw your attention to an article i was reading in the New York Times about a week ago or so. Under the title, austria and the future of europe it said, historys shadow of rapid nationalism and xenophobia kept at bay since the end of world war ii is lengthenening across e continent. This is serious. Alan it is very serious. The newspaper neednt look to europe to say that. It is lengthening across america, too. We have, with mr. Trump, the president ial candidate of the republican party, it is a western phenomenon. No longer can the americans say it is a european phenomenon. When i said it was viennese coffeehouse politics, i was being just as disdainful and actually wrongheaded about it, because it is a german phenomenon with the afd too. And the point is that you talk about dissatisfaction, mr. Konig, with the system in austria. I go to austria regularly. It is a great country to live. It is a High Standard of living. It is a wonderful place to be. Where does all this anger come from . It is a strange, i dont know, it is not as if people are like in the 1930s, out of work, bread lines. Even people who are out of work have a great social system in austria. There is something more sinister going on, almost like a death wish. Maybe it is no accident that Sigmund Freud discovered the death wish. It comes from vienna. As if they want to just destroy everything. That european democracy, austrian democracy, is built after the war, and it is very disconcerting. If you could point to something and say this, they let people down on that, you could change it. But people seem hellbent on destroying themselves. What do you do . Peter what do you make of all that . [laughter] im fascinated to hear what you have to say. Ulrike what am i doing with the death wish . Lets take freud out of here and do politics. I would argue it does not fall from heaven, first. There is a 15yearold tradition , and another very prominent figure, which was the uprising of modern rightwing populism, which came from austria, 15 years ago. Which, by then, we stitill pursd on the legal side of the gotpean union, because we article seven and we wanted to do something against. It could buy time. Ita seems toto be doesnt come from nowhere, but it hasas been undercover for a long. Now in the whole development mr. Posener and as said, it is not just us,s, it is america with mr. Trump. It is in poland as well. Rightwing populism. I think what has been latent in thisustrian case now gets way. It brings austrian potential to another ethic. What can you observe is not so distinct from whatat you s see elsewhere, which is that there is a Political Class in the middle, the moderate ranked, a d momoderate left, which has creed to either side. You see the german coalition, and you see in france where you have the president a lot hollande, and for finland, denmark and austria. We are building the margins of the political spectrum in all countries. They are building a wall around itself. Mr. Posener says it is not like w when we were livig in the 1930s, with massive unemployment. But people are comparing the situation with the 1920s and 1930s. Very sane and sensible people are doing that in private conversations and have, in the media and in general. Ulrike i would not agagree with that. There is a situation, and if im at mistaken, i was hearing story about income discrepancies and austria. Under par, sketching out very high discrepancies. Elsewhere, like there are many bit people, but many others who did not benefit. Indiana, it is vienna is a very wealthy town, but it is not for everybody. People are scared about their own perspective, and anxieiety about what they will lose, then you have the same centimeter of destabilization of the middle class, to bring these people to the right. , somethingkonig sinister in austria. That word caught my attention. Something sinister. Do you agree . Ewald i do not agree with some positions of mr. Posener. Ofhink it is some sort arrogant to say, who cares about a small country, or the government are small countries of small countries. I have to say thatat the chancellor d did care about smaller countries, and he did consult them, or and form them informed them. This is in the past, it was not done today. The second position that germany has, the responsibility for the whole of europe. In fact, it is like this. Germany has the leadership for. Urope, and many countries neighboring countries care that germany takes leadership, but you cannot say german me has the response germany has the responsibility. Peter what you appear to be saying is germany is bullying smaller countries in europe. Agree, but not really smaller countries. Austria was benefiting by jeremy germany. You can talk about the european south, about the austerity policy. Countries like austria or even the netherlands benefit from what is gaining to the markeketn germany. On the political side, i agree that thesenig, countries resent they have no more say in the european making. If you go to the refugee criris, the chancellor who just resigned, he was given orders by Angela Merkel to arrange this. It was more her calling for the auaustrian chancelellor to givim a task, as if the chancellor is not on equal footing in the system of european governance. I think there is something building up , in the small countries. We are seeing that we are paying the political price. Thed because the some of smaller countries are powerful. Peter one thing we do know, in austria, norbert hofers success shook the political establishment to the core. As y you pointed out, to the resignation of the chancellor. Austrianresignation of chancellor earlier this month sent a clear signal. In germany, the social democrats have seen a big drop over the past several years in their share of the vote, and a number of f party members. Chancellor merkels christian democrats are not doing much better. Neither are many of europes other big Political Parties. Rightwing parties are stealing their votes. People are really nervous right now, and they dont trust the established parties. And those parties are nervous, too. We are talking about our exisistence here. We could end up in a tailspin and crash. Are europes big Political Parties dying ouout . Peter interesting question. We are talking about the broadbased, the big 10 Political Parties that are the cornerstone of european politics for decades, since the second world war, effectively. Are they on the way out . Alan it would appear so. It is very alarming. This i is partly to o do it e basic reason is the electoral systemem in the whole of europe. If you had the electoral system thenin prison britain, you would still have two main parties, center left, center right, and a basically stable political set up. Where they dont have that and they have proportional representation for european elections, the u. K. Comes in on top. A bag of fools, basically. In europe, it is proportional representation, that is the basis. Anyone with a grudge for any reason whatsoever, mostly basis baseless. The elites discredit themselves in the financial crisis of 2008. Ok, they make mistakes. But the fact is, what is going on is people are voting irresponsibly. They are saying, i dont agree with the system, i will vote for this other person. They are not voting for a government, they are voting for a protest party. Is a breakdown of political education. Ulrike i strongly disagree. People vote for what they want. Your comparison doesnt hold, because in france you do have a majority system and they, are she holds 40 i in some of the regions of france. The Voting System is just part of the explanation for france. The second thing, it is the right for people to be in anger against the of government. Its not that the people are voting wrongly, it may say that the Political Class is not functioning, and that is s wrong politics. We did a lot of wrong politics. There was everything illegal, but not moral. There was socialization of bank debt. There is a system that needs to take the blame that people are giving. What we are seeingng is just a the people, but in a way the people are the soverereign. They areclass protesting the Political Class. The establishment left people behind. Instead of pointing to the people, perhaps the establishment could understand that they better do Good Governance for the people. Ewald the thing is, the more you want people not to vote for the right wing parties, those people who want to protest, they know what to vote because they want to hurt. Alan yes, ok. The whole point t about democray it is not taught correctly in school. They say democracy means leadership by the rule by the people. Thats not true. Liberal democracy means checks on the rules. Checks on the emotions of the populace. This is why you have the Voting System in Great Britain and the united ststates, designed to kep protest voters to a minimum. Ulrike completely agreed, but can fail. Of the but the majority of the system comes on two legs, because you need to legs to walk. One is the antieuro side, thehe other is the racism and xenophobia. Because racism and xenophobia can be easily criticized by the establishment, look how these dont are, xenophobic, talk to them, it canan be shifid away. But this basically enables the Political Class cannot look at the real critique of these people against and is functioning this governance. Austria it is pretty true. There is a fundamental substantial critique to make, that also comes from science, that they europe governance system is flawed for many people and does not work. Theres no social component and component. Atic if Marine Le Pen says this, she the populace. In essence, she is right. Only because in addition she is xenophobic, you can easily push her away, and it makes you not take serious points of critique. We should look at what t the populace are saying. They say we are mistreating people on many levels of the social and democracy field. We should listen instead of pushing them away. Peter i wonder if you are taking the voter seriously, because there are many people clearly, it is a learning process with the emergence of the far right. We are learning there are a lot of people who are very threatened and disgruntled by the accelerating speed of globalization. They feel as though their traditional lifestyles are threatened. Do you respect that, do you have sympathy for that . Or do you dismiss that . Alan youre putting me on the spot here. I dont have any respect for that. Why should i respect someone who does not want society to be modern . Why should i respect someone, who says, i want to live in a racially pierce society and pierce society and i dont want immigrants . Why should i respect someone who does knowledge to share their wealth . I have no respect. The problem is not that the parties are ruling. Or that they pushed it aside. They did not get up until the people this is not how we talk about strangers. This is not how we talk about globalization. It is not how they talk about europe. And david if they were not angry enough, they did not take it seriously. Ulrike you are picking up what i was trying to explain. We are picking up on the racist tendencies, but not the legitimate claim that the Global Economy is making them stuck. Look alan if it is greece, fine. I have every sympathy with downtrodden greeks. But there are no downtrodden austrians. They are on the top. You, we will come back to after we have another look at a short report. This is an aspect of what we discussed here, the fierce people have about, what is the word, identity. Loss of identity. Lets watch the pictures first. Announcer heland. Acss europe, right wing Political Parties are playing up nationonist teams, including what they see as too much immigration. Thehe split is not between the left and the right, but between the globalists and the patrioiots. The globalist who favor the dissolution of france in a global magma, and patriots who believe the National Arena is the most protected for the french, and that means all of you. Announcer the National Front has become the voice of a lot of frustrated voters. There are many of these parties in europe. Germany, too. We are patriots. We love our homeland, and we want to protect it. Announcer but can this new nationalism protect people from truly global problems . Peter that is the question, ewald konig. Globalists versus patriots. Ewald i think it need not be a contradiction. You can be a patriot, and also fond of globalization. There is a special aspect on the euroropean level, especially for the austrians. Most people forget it. 2000, we had the first break of the grand coalition. It was a coalition of conservative parties. It was some sort of maximum , thety from the eu side austrians without being asked. Peter the austrians were not consulted. Ewald yes. And this is still a scar. The austrians had the highest of ulrike agreement. Ewald agreement in entering the eu. But after these sanctions, it is still a scar. Peter a scar on the far right, resentment. It is there. But what is the best way to stop it . What is the best way to address it . Alan look, the austrians elected a self hating homosexual, israel hater. A hater of everything truly western. And now they say it is a scar because the European Union decided they could not allow that . That something had to be done about it, because it was not the way we do business in europe . All i can say is, it is not for them. We dont let people like that to be part of government, and we should not allow it. Peter how do we stop the far right . Ulrike we need to get the analysis clear. Talking about what Marine Le Pen said, it is globalism together with the agenda for openings. Says she wants closer closure, but you cannot have that on one side. If youou have open markets, bubt ththen you get cosmopolitanism with it. This is really we need to understand. The moment liberals want open markets, you can open agendada fromom other people from differt nations, you cannonot havee separate liberalisms. The left wants closed market open human agenda. The right wants only open markets,s, but they want to didisclose identities. Because these two liberalisms always come along, left and right are retreating their own electorates, and that goes to the margins. This is the analysis. Not a solution, but analysis of the problem. Ulrike but it is very part important to get it right. Peter how do you stop the far right . I think wet cannot stop it by order, we have to live with them. We have to make a reality check, if they have responsibility in the government. And then we h hae demystification. You cannot stop it. Peter so the genie of nationalism is out of the bottle. Can it be put back in, or is it going to run and run . Alan it remains to be seen. But you have to fight it. That is not what the centerright is doing now. At the moment, they say, we have to take they are pretetending these are real concerns. They are not real concerns. They are demagoguery. Worke but that can only because of the social and economic erosion. If not, it cannonot walk wor. The Political Class needs to fight those emotions. Peter we will have to leave it there. I hope we have given you plenty of food for thought. If you enjoyed the show, come back next week. We would love to hear from you. Goodbye. Cheers. nn