witith justst over a month until election day "the new york , times" reports "donald trump tax records show he could have avoided taxes for nearly two decades, the times found we''ll get the details from three-time pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter david barstow and we'll also be joined by david cay johnston, another pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter. his biography of donald trump titled, "the making of donald trump" and his latest story for the daily beast is headlined "art o of the steal." then it's a grim fact of american life -- on an average day, seven children and teens die from gun violence. now a new book takes a closer look at the lives of 10 young people, ages 9 to 19, who died on a single day -- november 23, 2013. >> o on this pararticular day,'m pretetty sure i didn't get anyy suicides. seven were african american, to dub b were latino, one was whit. a sleleepoverd from rural stairwell, texas, michigan off a dirt road. amy: we'll speak with journalist and author gary younge about his new book, "another day in the death of america: a chronicle of ten short lives." all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.orgrg, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. new york attorney general eric schneiderman has ordered t the donald j. trump foundation to immediately stop soliciting donations in new york state, saying the foundation is not registered under state law. it's the latest blow to trump's familyly foundation, which has been facing increasing scrutiny during the election. a series of "washington post" investigations have revealed the foundation has also broken u.s. laws by using hundreds of thousands of dollars from the foundation to pay off legal fees associated with trump's for-profit businesses. the investigations have also shown donald trump has not personally donated to his foundation since 2008 and that he's also used foundation money to buy advertisements for his hotels and to buy at least two expensive portraits of himself. this comes as a "new york times" investigatation reveals the trup organization came incredibly close to collapse in the 1980's, leading trump to amass $3.4 billion in debt by 1990. the following year, the casino control commission determined "mr. trump cannot be considered financially stable," although the agency allowed trump to continue operating h his casinos "the times" invevestigation dras on newly revealed tax returns showing trump claimed an income tax loss of nearly $917 million in 1995. trump has refused to release his full tax returns. we'll have more on donald trump's tax returns and business records after headlines with pulitztzer-prize w winning journalilists david d barstow ad david cay johnson. in more news from the campaign trail, vice presidential candidates v virginia senator tm kaine and indiana governor mike pence will square off tonight for the only vice presidential debate. it will be held at longwood university in farmville, virginia, and moderated by cbs news' elaine quijano. democracy now! will be broadcasting the debate live, and expanding the debate after every question answered by the major party vice presidential candidates, we will pause to get response from green party vice presidential nominee. we also invited the libertarian nominee to join us. 8:00 totonight from 11:30 at our website democracynow.org. in new hampshihire, repupublican senator kelly ayotte, who is in a tight election race is again facing criticism over her support for donald trump, whom she called a role model on monday night before quickly trying to walk back the comments. ayotte referred to trump as a role model during a debate with her rival, governor maggie hassan. a few hours later, ayotte issued a statement saying she misspoke. the massive category 4 hurricane matthew is currently bearing down on haiti, expected to make landfall early this morning. meteorologist or wananting it to be catastropophic. the hurrane e has alreready kild three people, including a haitian fisherman. the storm packs 145 mile-per-hour winds. it's expected to hit haiti, then cuba, and then continue barreling toward the u.s. coast, where florida governor rick scott and north carolina governor pat mccrory have already declared states of emergency in anticipation. in cuba, residents of guantanamo are currently evacuating, although there are still no plans to e evacuate ththe 61 prisoners held there. the united states has cut off talks with russia over the ongoing war in syria. the u.s. says it is suspending negotiations over russia's role in the ongoing bombing campaign in eastern aleppo. in response, russia pulled out of an arms control agreement that requires both the u.s. and rurussia to dispose of plutoniu, a a nuclear weaponons material.. this i is white house prpress secretary josh earnest. >> what is clear is the obama administration has concluded russia has no intention of holding up to the commitments they've made in the context of negotiat -- negotiations. once you reach that conclusion, i'm not sure what is to be talked about. the tragic consequences s this s going to have for syria. amy: the united states suspension of talks comes as the opposition aleppo media center says eastern aleppo's m10 hospital was hit by bunker-buster bombs monday, killing seven and marking the third attack on this major hospital in less than a week. in turkey, president recep tayyip erdogan has asked parliament to extend the state of e emergency for anothther the months. erdogan first dedeclared the ste of emergency in july after a faileded coup. in september, turkey dismissssed or suspended nearly 40,000 teachers amidstst an ongoining crackdown, which has also seen more than 100 memedia outlets clososed and at least 40,000 people arrested or detained. "washington post" reporter jason rezaian has sued the iranian government over his arrest and imprisonment in 2014. rezaian was arrested along with his wife, also a journalist, and held for over 500 days on espionage charges until being released in january. his lawsuit accuses iran of hostage-taking, terrorism and torture, and using his capture as leverage in the ongoing nuclear negotiations. donald trump has claimed the u.s. paid iran $400 million in cash for the release of rezaian and four other american prisoners, but in fact, the money was money has been owed to iran since the 1970's when the u.s. refused to give them weapons iran had already paid for following the iranian revolution. doctors without borders marked the first anniversary of the u.s. military'y's bombing of its hospital in kunduz, afghanistan on october 3, 2015. the attack killed 42 people, including patients and staff. doctors without borders hass described patients burning in their beds, medical staff who were decapitated and lost limbs, anand staff members shot from te air while they fled the burning building. the pentagon has called the attack a mistake. 16 u.s. officers have received administrative discipline over the attack, but none face criminal charges. this is doctors without borders switzerland president, thomas nierle. >> four out of five members of the security council, permanent members, are allied to forces who commit these crimes. and on the other hand, on the un security council, there is one ,esolution after the other health care structures, should not be attacked, that they are protected, that it should be respected. but in the end, nothing changes. amy: the bombing of the hospital one year ago came after taliban forces took k control of the ciy of kununduz. u.s.-backed afghan forces later retook control of the city. but on monday, the taliban again launched an offensive in kunduz. fighting for control of the city continues today. the u.s. war in afghanistan is the longest war in u.s. history. this comes as the european union has reached an agreement with the afghan government that allows the eu to deport t an unlimited number of afghan refugees bacack to afghaniststa. a leaked memo shows the eu threatened to reduce humanitarian aid to afghanistan if the afghan government did not accept the deportations agreement. in sacramento, california, newly released police dashcam video shows to officers intentionally trying to run over 51-year-old african-american joseph mann before he was then shot by police 14 times in july. in the video, one officer can be heard saying " "f-- this guy. i'm going to hit him." as the officer drives the police cruiser toward the man, listen carefully. amy: the two officers have been placed on desk duty. police say joseph mann was holding a knife in the middle of the street. his fafamily ss s he was havinga mental healtlth equals top meanwhile, protests continuing in los angeles following to fatal police shootings over the weekend. on saturday, police shot and killed 18-year-old carnell snell, junior, who please claim gun.olding a the second person has not t been releaseded. police say he was shot after officers confused a replica of a gun for a real gun. among those arresteted at mono's protest in losos angeles was blk lilives matter cofoundnder patre cullors and melina abdullah. both had been released. in financial news, the illinois state treasury has suspended investing with wells fargo, amid a massive scandal at the major wall street bank involving thousands of employees who took private customer information to create 2 million fake accounts in order to meet sales targets. the decision affects $30 billion in investments. on monday, illinois state treasurer michael frerichs called wells fargo shameful. massachusetts senator elizabeth warren has called for wells fargo ceo john stumpf to resign and to be criminally investigated. in north dakota, land defenders disrupted the gubernatorial debate in bismarck monday night to demand an end to the construction of the $3.8 billion dakota access pipeline, which has faced massive resistance from north dakota's standing rock sioux tribe, as well as members of hundreds of other tribes from across the u.s., canada, and latin america. >> we will never a allow - -- nt now, not ever. thisis is someththing that eache of units to understand. this i is 1851 treataty land. it i is not legal. amy: also on monday, land defenders say they stopped work at as many as five separate dakota access construction sites. >> we have a caravan with 100 vehicles strong. we have stopped construction today at the dakota access pipeline just with our presence of our warriors and land defenders and water protectors. we have stopped them from work today. amy: meanwhile, in southeast iowa, 30 people were arrested saturday also blocking construction of the dakokota access pipeline there. the e pipeline''s route runs frm north dakota's oil fields through soututh dakota, , iowa,d into illinois. in iowa, land defenders have now established a permanent protest encampment where the pipeline is slated to cross the mississippi river. an undocumented migrant justice activist has won the right to remain in the u.s. after the department of f homeland securiy reversed itsts decision to punih her because of her activism. ireri unzueta carrasco received daca, deferred action for childhood arrivals, status in 2013, but had been denied a renewal of daca earlier this year because of her participation in acts of civil disobedience aimed at pressuring the obama administration to halt its record deportations. unzueta carrasco says she'll now focus on protecting other undocumented activists who've similarly been denied daca after participating in protests. and oscar brand, a folk singer whose new york city radio show spanned more than seven decades, has died at the age of 96. oscar brand first broadcast "folksong festival" on wnyc in december of 1945. and over the decades, he interviewed music legends including woody guthrie, judy collins, harry belafonte, joan baez, pete seeger, and bob dylan. brand's show went on to win two peabody awards and is cited by the guinness book of world records as the longest-running radio program by the same host. brand's final broadcast of "folksong festival" was on september 24. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. does donald trump pay taxes? we begin today's showow with explosive report from "the new york times" that suggests the republican presidential nominee may have avoided paying any federal income taxes for nearly 18 years. "the times" has obtained three of donald trump's tax returns showing trump claimed an income tax loss of nearly $917 million in 1995. the deduction means trump could have paid zero federal income tax over an 18-year period. since the report came out, the trump campaign has not challenged the authenticity of the tax documents. instead, it issued a statement, that "mr. trump is a highly-skilled businessman who has a fiduciary responsibility to his business, his family and his employees to pay no more tax than legally required." on monday, trump claimed he successfully exploited tax loopholes created by special interests, and said he's the best person to fix the broken system. mr. t trump: there isis an unfar system. and so complex that very few people understand it. fortunately, i understand it. [cheers] trump: this is not the fault of the irs, but the political class that is owned outright by the special interest in lobbyist. believe me. it is these politicians who wrote the tax code and who are constantly adding, revising,g, d changing minority over complicated set of laws all at the behest of their favorite donors and special interests who want certain provisions put in and they won't take no for an answer. i understand the tax laws better than almost anyone. which is why i am one who can truly fix them. i understand it will stop i get it. amy: meanwhile, democratic presidential nominee hillary clinton responded by slamming trump on his tax recorord. on monday, s she told supporters in the battleground state of ohio that trtrump was a tax evar who stiffefed average americans. mrs. clinton: now, a lot of us were wondering, what is he hiding? it must be really terrible. well, "the new york times" has discovered at least part of the answer. back in n the 1990's, trump apparently lost $1 billion in a single year on bad investments and failing casinos. now, how anybody can lose one dollar less -- let alone $1 billion in the casinino industry is the on me. right? but it is just hard to figure. but as a result, it doesn't look like he paid a dime of federal income tax for almost two decades. now, while millions of american families, including minene and hard, payingorking our fair share, itit seems he ws cocontributing nothing to our nation. imagine that. not fair. the new york times" were sent to the paper by an anonymous source to return address listed as originating from trump tower. a lawyer for trump threatened "the new york times" with prompt legal action. trump has refused to make his tax returns public, breaking a precedent followed by every presidential nominee since 1976. for more we're joined now by two , reporters who have long covered donald trump. david barstow is a three-time pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter for "the new york times." he is the lead author on a new article analyzing part of trump's tax returns. barstow shares a byline with susanne craig, russ buettner, and megan twohey on "the new york times" exclusive, "donald trump tax records show he could have avoided taxes for nearly two decades, the times found." and we're also joined by david cay johnston, pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter previously with "the new york times," now a columnist for the daily beast. his latest piece is headlined, "art of these deal." his biography of donald trump titled, "the making of donald trump," came out in august. lay out what it is you had -- that someone mailed to "the times." c colleague sue craig, probably one of the few reporters at the paper who actually checks her snail mail every day, came to me one day with this envelope and these three pages in them with her eyes wide open. she showed me the documents. i was action on the phone in the middle of an interview. i saw the first limbs of the tax .eturn pages i hung up on the person i was talking to. and of course, we then went on this sort of mad scramble to see we could authenticate the documents. that was about 10 days ago. obviously kind of had samearring feelings of the time. one was, gosh, who else might have been sent these documents? i was thinking but y you, david. >> not so lucky. >> but we were also thinking about what happened with dan rather in rushing to something before we were completely confident in the authenticity of the documents. amy: when were they sent to you? >> as i said, we received them i guess it was two fridays ago. sue craig walked up waving them at me. amy: what do they show? what did they say? >> first of all, these are like little fragments in a way. his full tax return for 1995, no doubt, was hundreds and hundreds of pages and we were only sent three pages. but what was on those three pages was enough for us to see something quite remarkable, which was, my gosh, he is loss ong $916 million his personal income tax return in 1995. the number was so large, it actually took a sort of a minute to figure out if it could really be that big. when we show these returns, we of course quickly brought in tax experts to help us interpret and understand the documents, they were also -- it took everybody a minute. we would see people look at these documents just to kind of contemplate that size of a number as loss for 1995. also, he begins giving us sort of the first glimpses into other of his finances. so one of the things we can see from these documents is trump managed to obtain enormous tax benefits from the financial records he had left behind in the early 1990's with failed casinos, with failed airline, with a failed or poorly time to purchase of the plaza hotel and you could certainly see evidence of that in the way the numbers were described in these tax returns. so even though it was just three pages and none of them were actually from his federal tax return, it was enough for us to begin seeing some things that withoutte startling and news reading -- newsworthy for room readers of "the new york times." amy: asked when this massive loss, $960 million loss, means for taxes in the future. >> that is the thing that i think most ordinary people would not immediately recognize. there are these incredible provisions in the tax code that are especially beneficial to people like donald trump that would allow him to use that $916 million to shelter up to 18 from any taxme t tax whatsoever -- i'm sorry, of income, from any income tax whatsoever. , what that works out to come he could earn up to $50 million a year tax-free over this 18 year period. we don't see any evidence from our examination of his businesses at that time that that is a number he was likely to hit at all and thus i think it makes it extremely likely that over this 18 year period, he paid no income taxes at all. even though we don't know that for sure, because he has not yet released those tax returns, either. amy: let me go to donald trump responding, addressing inporters at a campaign stop pueblo, colorado, yesterday. he s said he resuscitated his as mrs. through sheer talent and grit. company istoday my bigger, stronger, far greater asset than it has ever had before. more premium properties. we're never done better. it is the strongest we have ever been. we have ememployed thousands and thousands of people, which is the thing that frankly makes me most happy. that did not happen by chance or luck. it happened by action and talent. a lot of talent. i was able to use the tax laws of this country and my business acumen to date out of the real estate mass you would call it a depression when few others were able to do what i did. amy: so that was donald trump. your response, david barstow? >> i i think this isis the argut he i is delaying out gradualally over the campaign. you heard it for sure monday night in a presidential debate with hillary clinton when she pointed out or raised the question of, hey, perhapsps onef the reasons he is not releasing his tax returns is bececause he doesn't want you to know he doesn't pay any federal income taxes -- to which he replied, that would make me smart. i think he has continued that argument. on wednesday, he was on "the o'reilly factor," and he argued to bill o'reilly that he thinks the american voters are actually looking for that kind of thinking, that they're looking for someone like him who is so expert in gaming the tax code and was clever enough to be a billionaire on the one hand and on the other hand not pay a dime in federal income taxes. so it is an interesting argument he is making. it is an interesting question of whether or not that is what the american people are looking for right now. amy: so you, in trying to confirm the authenticity of these documents, not only consulted tax experts here, but you into florida to meet with trump's accountant? >> i did. he is represented the trump family over the span of four decades. starting to work on donald trump's taxes when donald trump was 18 years old. represented these documents to him to see if you can authenticate them. he immediately recognized them. in f fact, according to him, ths was the last tax return he ever worked on for donald trump. he parted company with the accounting firm that he worked for the following year and went to a different accounting firm. the thing that really jumped out -- the thing that i guess gave me the most amount of comfort was he was able to explain an anomaly in the way the numbers were presented on one of the tax forms. in issue was this $916 million loss. the first two digits, the 9 and inor slightly different font slightly misaligned from the following seven n digits. that made us incredibly worried that perhaps somebody had simply doctored mr. trump's tax returns. when i pointed that out to the acaccountant, he kind of smiled and chuckled most of he said, oh, yes, i remember. the tax software program i was using at that time had difficulty actually printing out a number that large. he would only print out seven digits. so i had too then run the thing through my ibm typewriter and i typed in the first two digits. and i think that was the moment presently felt like, ok, these are real. understoode said he that trump was living a life of unimaginable luxury? >> he was. he is complicated feelings about donald trump. first of all, he clearly is someone who had real admiration for fred trump, donald trump's father. he described him as a man who littlemind getting a met on issues, a man who paid attention to detail, a man who was on top of his is this. the way he described donald trump was sort of undisciplined, showboating kind of brash guy, the guy y we have all come to kw over this campaign. he mentioned, in fact,t, that every year when donald and ivana would come in to do their taxes with him, it was always ivana who always asked the picky detailed questions. he said whwhat donald did understand and grasped very clearly was they could use the irs tax code to protect his wealth. and that was the point that does from that sort of simple understanding, float, basically, all of the tax strategies. but the accountant was well aware of the kind of irony of the fact that here is this man living this incredible lifestyle at this moment in time and yet at the same time, he is not paying any taxaxes. amy: and there are other lines in the tax return like line number six, business income or loss. and that amount is? lower $3 million. amy: that is a little different than people would think donald trump's income is, the way he describes it. >> all of these numbers are so fascinating. amy: $3.4 million, income yeah, it is not -- >> there's no evidence -- amy: david cay johnston. >> i covered trump when he went to these difficulties act then, which began in 1990. there's no evidence that donald trump is a billionaire in these three pages prescribed -- describe he is not a billionaire. he is a wealthy man. yet about a billion dollars in trust income -- he had one big in dollars in interest income. but there are number of things he did hear that he isis not telling pepeople about. first of all, those losses represented real damage suffered by other people. secondly, the state of new jersey, casino control commission, after two commissioners complained of official favoritism to donald trump by the new york state attorney general's office, took his side against his bankers. and his bankers then had to give him huge discounts on his loans. if you borrow money from a bank and pay back less than you owe, that his income you have to pay taxes on. donald escapes that, i'm sure, and that is what my column in the daily beast explains, by instead of paying the taxes, agreeing in the future not to take tax benefits out of other buildings that he owned -- his casinos -- he then took these buildings, put them into a company sold to the public in the market -- the first time he had done this -- the stock opened up at $35. it quickly went over a couple of years to $.17. it never made money. it lost $1.1 billion more, but trump got $82 million of pay from that company. so throughout the system, what donald trump did was he mismanaged his properties, overpaid, got the banks and therefore the investors in the banks to suffer the losses. given awayook his own tax benefits to avoid tax, put them in to be publicly traded company, and stiffed the investors in that company. this is how donald trump has done business his entire life also amy: we're going to go to break and come back to thiss discussion. that is david cay johnston. we are also speaking to david barstow. david barstow led "the new york times" team analyzing part of donald trump's tax returns, the big bombshell news this week will stop david cay johnston is author of "the making of donald a piecend just wrote for the daily beast called "the art of t the steal." we w will be back in a moment. ♪ [music break] amy: "built for love." this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we are talking about donald trump's taxes with judah pulitzer prize-winning journalist, david barstow of "the new york times," and david cay johnston with the daily beast also author of the book "the making of donald trump." i want to go to donald trump talking about taxes to her republicican primary debate last year at the ronald reagan library in california for. mr. trump: what i don't like him if you make $200 billion in your, you pay 10%, paying little, relatively, to someone making $50,000 year and has to hire h&r block to do the work because it is so complicated. we have had a graduated tax system for many years. iat i would like to do, and think people will like the plan, a major reduction in taxes, a major reduction for the middle class. the hedge funds guys won't like won'tght now is -- like me e as much as they do rit now. amy: that is donald trump talking about taxes during a republblican primary debate at e ronald reagan library. your response to that, david cay johnston? he says it is unfair. >> yet another example of donald says one thing and does another. the last year that we know donald trump exley paid income taxes was 1977. and we know from other public records that in recent years, he reported an income of less than $500,000 for tax purposes. to complainrump that people are living tax-free is just absurd. surprised you by "the times" revelations of these tax documents of donald trump? >> the interest he had. he collected about $7 million of interest. if you bought regular corporate bonds, he owes about $150 million worth. it he may have jumped bonds bought at a low price, and the interest may represent a smaller investment. still tens of millions of dollars, but a smaller investment. i was surprised at how much interest he was collecting because that is a very conservative thing to do and donald presents himself to the world is this swashbuckling business genius. the second thing is the size of the loss. i covered this back and for the "philadelphia inquirer" and wrote a book about it. i'm having our time figuring out how donald got even over many years, $916 million of net operating losses. use that much. he doesn't have that much income. his income does not reflect a man who was a billionaire overall. -- at all. amy: what about it? >> one thing i want to focus a minute, is basic presentation right now is you should elect me tricks ofknow all the the tax code. i know -- and he said, the tax code is unfair and he personally has benefited from thahat unfairnessss. therefore, i am the guy to fix it. but what is also noteworthy is we have yet heard from him any specific proposal to actually fix any of these provisions that benefited him so richly in this 1995 tax return. he has talked about some changes to the t tax code, but those changes, as best as anyone can assess them so far, they are fixes that would ask a further benefit him. >> his plan is very oriented toward people at the topless up think of it as george w. bush tax cuts on steroids. a newterally drafting book, federal tax code, for the 21st century. donald and i had lunch about these issues in 1990. 3.4inted out to him he had million dollar negative income annually needed one dollar to pay no taxes. he could have made a little money and pay no taxes. as adjusted if he reorganized his partnerships he could sell those tax benefits to some of the else. donald, who was nonplussed, could not imagine a journalist understood tax code, i don't the key understood the point i was making to him at the time. he doesn't focus well on things. he did not do the stuff here. his tax a advisors did ththis. the trump organization has threatened to sue you, david barstow, and "the times" >> they have. they've taken remarkable position with us. the letter they sent to us before we published took the position that unless we had the specific blessining and permissn of donald trump to write a story about his tax returns, we would be in violation of law. it was almost -- i mean, the notion of prior restraint of the roundly dismissed in supreme court decision after supreme court decision. the supreme court has ruruled or and over again that if reporters obtain documents in the way we obtain them, we have a perfect right under the first amendment to publish -- first amendment to publish what is in the public interest. >> this goes to white donald trump is in getting the critical coverage. he called me at home to threatened to sue me. some of the freelance articles i way written were lawyered beyond reason out of fear. i've had to news organizations in, we cannot report that because we are afraid that donald trump will he was. this is an extraordinary thing for a politician to do. the supreme court has been clear back to the 19th century that the highest and most protected form of speech is political speech and this is falling under the rubric of political speech. speech,nly political but there is a tradition in this country, as you mentionened, gog back to the 19 revenues, of presidential candidates releasing their tax returns for the very reason that we're talking about. it helps us have informed debate about their finances and how they pay taxes. tax and because we don't want another crook in the white house. richard nixon was not indicted as a courtesy to the offices of the presidency and his vice president resigned, contact -- confessed. we don't want them in the oval office. a form in september, pulitzer prize-winning journalist and filmmaker laura or to ask "new york times" editor if he would publish information from donald trump tax returns even if it meant risking jailil time. they were also joined by "the wawashington, post" assistant editor. >> i wouldld argue for presesidential c candidate whose whole campaign is built on his success as a businessman and his wealth, given didierent versrsis of his wealth, i a aee with you. >> so you will p publish them? >> theheroblem is s -- >> y you would -- anand if it means going toto a d jury, yoyou have to gogo. yoyou have to fight it. >> yes. >> it is fe years in j jail. suggested, if we publish them and get them and get five years in jail, that everyone at "the p post" take aa dayay. [laughter] it is kind of like jury duty.. i don't knowow that theyey would allow thatat, but i if they senu to jail, i will come over andd take a day and may e even tw dadays. >> thank you.. >> butut you are goioing to pubh this? >> i thihink -- >> arere you surprised to o hear that? >> he hasn't answered. >> you arere right. some things you have to do. and you go there you have bob woodward and "new york times" editor. david barstow, your boss. >> there were a lot of difficult things about bringing this story to the public on sunday. from my perspective, the least difficult part of it was deciding that the legal threats for mr. trump were not worth losing a minute sleepover. i thinink the positition that ty have taken, and we have some of the best firirst amendment lawys in the business working for us, they think he is taken a position that is so outside the norm of the american legal tradition that we don't feel like these kinds of threats are anytything to sweat over. hedavid, if he gets elected, will have the power of federal law enforcement. i am not worried if he threatens to sue me as he has if he loses, but if he wins, he could but you and i and dean baquet on no-fly list. he the courts have been best could do all sorts of things to mess up your life. he has made it clear he will do thisis. he talks as if the preresident s a dictator with unlimited power who doesn't need to pay attention to congress or the courts. he has talked of firing generals. the first thing someone does who plans to turn a republic into a dictatorship is say fire those general officers who were loyal to country and replace them with people loyal to him. in my book and my quote donald and linked in several forms as saying, what matters to him, is getting revenge. that is his philosophy, get and absolute loyalty to him, the person. that is whatat these threats of litigation shoululd really concn the vovoters about. >> i think thahat anyone who cas about an independent free press should be paying closer attention to these kinds of threats, simply because they are not normal. thth letter ththat was sent tots by one of the top litigators in new york is now or presenting mr. trump, it i is so outside te norm -- i mean, sure, we get training letters all the time. we get lawyer letters all the time. >> they go with the job. >> it goes with the territory. but this was extraordinary. my draw -- jaw. when i read it. amy: because? >> because he is taking up a stick position, unless he personally blesses "the new york times google writing a story ababout his income tax returns, we're committing a crime. he told "the new york times" first of all, his father was not arrested at a kkk rally with police in 1927 and did not live at that address. then he said, there were no charges, he should not write about it. he is set at campaign rallies, we're going to change these laws and sue these journalists and get rich. he said at other rallies, they should not be allowed to write things if you do not think that is what they should be. the democratic process. this is the language of someonee who believes he is a dictatorial king or would be. amy: what to the trump campaign you when you reached out to them before you published this? , i i mean, what is interesting is, the first response like official , or this letter from this high-priced lawyer threatening to reign legal hell on as if we went forward -- 30 minutes later, the second response was a statement they released saying basically he is a brilliant businessman who has a fiduciary obligation to his family and businesses not to pay any taxes. then it went on to say, and here are all of the taxes that he does pay. this long laundry list. of course, what was missing from that long laundry list was federal income tax. response thatond we thought was the far more telling an important -- >> to be fair to donald, he did pay new jersey state income tax because of its rolls. i think i'm 1.4 million dollars of new jersey income coming debate around $96,000 of tax. we're going to get a break and come back to this discussion. our discussion is david cay .ohnston and david barstow he led "the new york times" team analyzing part of the trump tax returns that they had mailed to them from, did you say, trump tower was the e return address? >> the r return address indicatd it was from trump tower. amy: who do you think it was? >> like everybody else, we've been trying to figure it out. and reading the tea leaves and examining these documents and doing everything we possibly can to encourage additional l leakso cocome to us. >> there's a good chance it was donald himself. donald has a history of leaking ink that you and i might think are damaging, but he thinks enhances his reputation. amy: we will be back with the taking on it davids goliath? david barstow and david cay johnston. we will be back with them in a moment. ♪ [music break] amy: "many rivers to cross." this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we are talking about donald trump's taxes with two pulitzer prize-winning journalist, david barstow of "the new york times" who led the investigation into donald trump's tax records, and david cay johnston. david barstow, in july, wrote a piece for "the new york times" where trump was the beneficiary of miraculously well-timed memory lapses. you write "such was the case for mr. trump held a level lawsuit against timothy o'brien, the author of trump nation, the art of being the donald. among other things, mr. trump asserted that trump nation cost him a deal made in heaven with a group of italian investors, many have met them on the brink of signing a business partnership that would have made him hundreds of millions of dollars. there were names he could not recall." david barstow? >> that is a pretty good paragraph. >> yeah. studyis amazing thing to him as a businessman to study him especially when he is being pressed on things about his business career. time he has been deposed -- so many timeses yes testified so many times and tangled with some really good lawyers over the years. and you can see lawyers -- you can see theheir exasperation rising because e every time they get close to kind of cornering him in an untruth, yes one of these moments where -- >> there's a reason for that and that is when donald says something under a, he can get into serious trouble. he will say publicly outrageous a but when you put him under oath, he can't remember. asked -- amy: explain timothy o'brien. >> a former colleague of ours at "the new york times" that wrote "trump nation." the book was worth $5 billion of damages to him. under oath he was asked, how do you determine your net worth? donald's answer, well, it depends on my mood. it depends on how i dealing. the lawyer pursued this. donald kept saying, yes, it depends on how i feel. he said, this is a great day, i am worth $2 billion. amy: you do a lot of quoting in that piece, david barstow. you write -- "there was the time donald j. trump told larry king that he is been paid more than $1 million to give a each about his business acumen when in fact he was paid $400,000. equipment net worth of $3.5 billion in 2004, 4 times as much as the bank found when they checked his math." yes, i'm reading from david barstow's july article in "the new york times." that is very interesting. "when i'm talking on television, i don't have to tell the truth." which is what he is doing in this campaign, speaking on television. >> the paragraph that lawyers and journalists go back to over and over again from his book "the art of the deal" is a paragraph or he talked about his admiration for the concept of truthful hyperbole. amy: explain. >> it is this idea that the way he sees it, there's nothing mean, truthful hyperbole makes no sense at all, right? he sees it as entirely , to sayte to exaggerate things that are not true, to play to people's desires, their fantasies. --because it is a mixture of donald is a master salesman full dust master salesman. he knows how to sell. secondly, that is what caught artists do. the thing about donald, i once fed d him paulson information ad his answers embraced my falsehoods to demonstrate he did not know when he was talking about, but he put them into his answers. he has done this and other interviews. there is a met of the con and the sales job. if it benefits donald -- what are you worried about these fine detail tax for? unless he is under oh's. >> when you know with the facts are, and then you watch him kind of mush all of that together and throw in a bunch of nonsense, he is actually -- it is a stunning talent. all politicians, right, are bending the truth and hedging here and there. but there's something about him, i think it is one of his most remarkable abilities, and -- you see it even when he is under oath and being deposed, this factdible ability to weave and fiction together and make it sound like, you know, it is this seamless reality. >> that is why i say, donald creates his own reality. that is -- if you want to understand donald trump, if he says it is true, he is thinking it is true at the moment. not because it is, but it will get what he wants out of you. donald creates his own reality. pointn of fact checkers out over and over and over again, no, that is not true, that is wrong, he did support the iraq war, it doesn't matter in his kind of conception of the world because he does create this reality, right? amy: who pays more in taxes than trump? somebody sent me an e-mail last night saying that the clinton campaign should make up signs and just pass them out at their rallies that says "i pay more taxes than donald trump." a lot of people can probably hold up those signs. amy: do you feel there is a threat of freedom of the press now more than you have seen in many, many years? that mr. trump, especially given the positions he has staked out over the course of this campaign and his whole lifetime, would represent a really significant threat to the tradition of an independent united states.hehe i think the way he reacted to this story is particularly chilling. to me, as a journalist. i have never seen someone take the kind of position that he took. we've had a well-financed forty-year campaign to discredit the press. there are bumper stickers in america "don't trust the liberal press." i think donald trump represent a clear and presenent danger to te liberties of the people, to the idea of the first amendment, by his own words he is made a very clear if you were president, he would do anything he could to suppress any's reach that he doesn't agree with or sees as damaging to what he is doing. he would not just have his finger on the button, but he would have the full powers of fedederal law enforced went. i think that -- i hope it would provoke a constitutional crisis, but this is a real serious problem that trump has exploited. >> he would clearly do all he weaken our defenses against libel lawsuits. he has brought five libel lawsuits himself. he sued the architecture critic for "the tribune" because -- >> did not like his opinion. >> those are the kinds of judgments that make you wonder, what does he understand about our tradition of a free press? you bothnt to thank for being with us, to its prize-winning journalist david barstow who let "the new york times" in that published explosive report on donald trump's tax returns, and david cay johnston, author of "the making of donald trump." democracy now! is looking for ic ) ( synthesized music ) director ( off-screen ): okay, this looks pretty good. all right, let's get all the rest of the lights on, and get ready for a take. crewmember: what about the sky? 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