At the same time it's a larger examination of what we put people in prison for and how our answers that question cost us or rewards us all of us on either side of the bars I'm very pleased to bring to you today the director and producer of college behind bars Lindo Vic and Sarah bought scene have worked side by side since 1997 creating award winning documentary as with Ken Burns Those include the Vietnam War baseball jazz Frank Lloyd Wright the war and prohibition college behind bars is Lynn's 1st outing as solo director welcome I'm so glad to have you with real to be here thank you let's talk 1st about the selection process not for the film we'll get to that but for the program itself it's the Bard prison initiative it is a college program that is the equivalent of the difficulty you'd see anywhere else how does an in make it shows and to get in that program. Well 1st I just want to say that we really prefer to refer to the people in the film as incarcerated students and their good mates and we really try to avoid that kind of labeling language just because I think part of the reason why we made the film is to change the narrative around criminal justice and prison and who's there so I appreciate that language is going to be a factor through our whole conversation so. But the program and the students that are here the former students can talk more about the admissions process if you want but. People who want to apply have to write an essay and then they're chosen for an interview and then they're selected. That's basically I was interested to watch the motivations of each of the students it's different than being out in the world and saying I'm going to get a degree in x. And I'm going to pursue a career in that there are people in the prison who are managing to get into a wonderful program like this who may have a life sentence who may be in there for another 40 years who may not know when they're going to get out so what did you learn about the motivations this the span of motivations that go into pursuing a higher education. I think they probably can explain that better than we can but the larger theme that we heard over and over again is just it's an opportunity to envision a future side of prison and reimagine what that might mean and so for so many people who ended up incarcerated hadn't had access to educational opportunity before that and finally had this chance it's it's it's opening up the door to home and world and there are a lot more people that would like this opportunity that have access to it right right how rare is the Bard initiative. Well there as we say in the film there are 52000 people incarcerated in New York state 52000 men 2500 women and 900 have access to some kind of college and 300 of them are in the Bart prison issue so it's of it's a small program it within the context of what's available that's the dominant program and that's one of the most rigorous and most longstanding and most well respected programs and that's partly because of the reasons why we chose it. But one of the things that came up again and again with the students is there's so many more people who would do this if they could yes yeah when you pursued permission to do this how did you approach the authorities and what went into their approving your doing. 1st which is not to say that we couldn't have made the film obviously without the permission of the New York state department of corrections and we get out from the beginning and so when Star and I 1st had the idea to make the film you know the question we asked ourselves is I wonder if we can ever get permission who would let us do that and as it turns out the commissioner of the acting commissioner of the Department of Corrections Anthony an itchy and his team really value education as an essential tool in the work they do and they recognized that they wish they could do more of it and they really appreciate what is being done in this particular program and so they were very open to the possibility that a film about it would show the world what's possible so our approval went all the way up to the governor of New York Andrew Cuomo and from there down to say yes you can you can make this film or we're going to give you access over a period of time we made that very clear Sarah was saying that we're going to be coming in and out we're not just coming in for a day or 2 right we're going to be back and forth back and forth over many years to show people going through this journey of getting this college education and you know we had some some boundaries there were very few places in the prison we weren't allowed to found there were some security questions of things we could or couldn't show aspects of the security system but you know basically we started off mostly in the school floor which looks like a high school kind of hallway and that what's going on there and as the project evolved we kept asking for more and more you know we'd like to show people in their cells because we want our audience to realize how you have to live as a student loan Carson rated We want to see the yard we want to see we want to remind our audience visually where we are and get out of the school floor so over the course of the years or making the film the Department of Corrections kept We kept on pushing for more and for the most part you know they really understood what we were trying to do and were extremely cooperative but they finally ended by saying please don't tell me this is your last shoot because we know it's not going to be a place that you can have out of every joke for about a year there's always the question when you're. Producing something that has a critical eye there's a question of what you compromise for access if you had found something egregious Lee horrible in the prison system you might have or might feel that obligation to show it I'm wondering if you at any point ever felt like we're not being allowed to show something that isn't actually an enterable part of the students trying to get through this program did you have to compromise no we didn't ever feel that way but we also recognize that we weren't making a film about solitary confinement or about you know different aspects of prison culture or prison life we were really focusing on what is it like to be incarcerated student to be a college student while behind bars and that was our focus so we lots of things probably happened in any world that year and that really wasn't our focus so we didn't go looking for. Other aspects of the story that really weren't directly relevant do you think that's yeah yeah actually we were making a film about education. In unusual and Vironment rather than the reverse it did come up briefly that there can be some tension between students who are being educated to a level beyond that of the security guards they're working next to every day the officers that they come in contact with for 3 males for counts for whatever did you see that manifest during the film we saw that the relationship between the officers and the people that are incarcerated is complicated it's not a normal relationship they're aware of it being in f.l. Of this complicated we also saw the strange way that the students have to kind of contort their own schedules to work in the reality of a prison system for example if the best time to work is 3 o'clock in the morning because it's quiet then there you have a person student sitting there working at 3 in the morning I mean it's pushing against a system that pushes against their humanity in the 1st place it's really contorted . That is true I think the organization of time and space in that environment I think people sometimes say to us well it must be easy to get a college degree and present because what else do you have to do you can just sit and study all day the fact it's quite a chaotic and loud and harsh environment with lots of constraints on not just where you can go and web but how you could possibly have the tools you need to get a really. To get an education you know and yet Conversely I also you know a lot of the students talk about I need coffee I never drank coffee before now I'm drinking coffee to stay up late to study or I have to study at night when no one else is bothering me and you know or at night we're sort of talking among ourselves about the assignment and wondering did you read this and you know Jeff your paper do and it sounded a lot like my college experience frankly and there are certain things about many things about their experience as college students that are very familiar to any college student or former college student some of us see reality shows that are based in prison that's probably the closest you're going to get as as compromised as that is there's a student by the name of Sebastian who just wrenched my heart time and time again and one of the things about him is he's a very sensitive soul and he cries and he shakes and he shows such humanity and as I understand it that can be dangerous behind bars to show yourself as being vulnerable did that come up talking to the students. It did and several of the students talked about wearing different masks and for different contexts presenting a certain face public face yeah but I think also just to piggyback on what Lynn just said about how there are aspects to what we are doing that are familiar to college cohort of students going through something that I think and again they speak to this very eloquently a kind of unique relationship that they have amongst themselves and the safety that the classroom permitted them to be vulnerable and open and sensitive to things that otherwise in that environment might not be so true. Does see one student who didn't make it because he got caught in the trap that it's not always easy to be a perfectly obedient inmate and this is a student who correct me if I'm wrong that he failed a drug test was that right we don't know what happened we don't know who got in trouble Yeah but it but in short he hasn't been able to pursue the program since and we are seeing yet another promising student who was doing really well I know that you focused on a handful of students to make this into a digestible but did you see more of that what percentage of students fell by the wayside and I actually know the percentage of students that they do you think probably I guess James Kim talks about having that maybe what your. Preference that you know that you just gave in addition to Brian I think we saw over the course of the 4 years we were filming that in each in each class there are usually have a couple of stories that are don't don't make it all the way through the majority of the students absolutely make it through so it's just a number as an editorial decision where their stories that you began to follow and let them fall by the wayside. As there are in every film absolutely yes for all kinds of reasons really you know we really cast our net pretty wide at the beginning and we shot 400 hours of material and so there are people that we had film start when we started the project started filming in 2014 there were several of partisanship who had already been released from prison who came home and we thought we would make them into you know really follow their journey after incarceration but we really realized it was I mean we did film quite a bit of that but we realized it was more than we could barely contain so we stayed focused on the students that were incarcerated and we followed several who were released while we were filming so that was one example of you know quite a bit of material that we got that we just realized couldn't fit into the structure that we ended up with that you know it's really hard to make those decisions but. I'm going to boggled at the thought of 4 years of footage and sound winnow down to 4 hours yeah we have amazing editors. And you have an incredibly patient assistant added our in particular and associate producer who really got they really know the material called in our editor spent a lot of time and then they would you know of the book we had maybe 350 hours they're like We need more money for you to go back and that's true we've got more to come with men and Sarah and later in the program we're going to meet 2 of the graduates and get some direct stories from this prison initiative the Bard prison Initiative in New York state prisons stay for more of that I mean this is in deep. . Welcome back to the I man we're talking about a p.b.s. Series shortly to come college behind bars it's going to hit the airwaves this coming November Lynn Novick is here she's the director her 1st solo flight under the Ken Burns on Bella Sarah bought Staind she and Lynn have been working together since 1097 and in fact are going to keep working together they keep managing working on 3 new films focusing on Lyndon Johnson Ernest Hemingway and the Holocaust I have to ask this level of proximity years and years and years what goes into a clockwork team like yours tell you what we like to say that if we heard this phrase a workshop we went to a number of years ago there was a. Correction producer to producers and they said we're film married now we agree we spend more time with each other than we do with our respective partners and spouses and families that we you know and we're on the road a lot and we really I think enormous amount of respect and sense of humor and a lot of worry about it before Kat but those 3 things I think are what keep us. Very connected Yeah I think I said to my husband recently you know when knows me better than anybody like better than my parents probably better than you just I mean certainly for me I was 24 when I met her so I'm 47 right now I've totally grown up we've you know got married got divorced had children. Gotten remarried a lot of life really up close with somebody and I think I have from where I more respect for how she thinks and operates in the world than almost anybody and that's an enormous privilege so even when it's hard like any relationship can be hard and we also manage a family so and a team so. Yeah we spent a lot of time together I feel the same way and I think. I feel so lucky to get to work for Sarah on so many amazing projects and I think just into our lives being intertwined the work that we do and the way that we do it and the kind of time we spend. It's really interesting people and hearing their stories and relating to them has added to our understanding of the world and the human condition in a really deep way and each other and kind of connected us because we have this shared memories of experiences we've spent with amazing people and this project more than any other you know when we started it really was a leap of faith and kind of a big question mark what are we going to do we've never done a film like this we've never had this experience of working together in this way with Ken as our executive producer you know what are we doing so it was just a big gulp and then jumping off the deep bench together so it's been an amazing journey did you how different how I'm asking how your creative vision evolved over the course of this project specifically did you guys come out from essentially the same angle and have the same vision the day you started from the day it ended or how did it evolve over time I think when should speak to that 1st and. I do think it was I'll just say I think it was really a can always says when he talks about our work and can we just should give a shout out to Ken Burns to really is an amazing person to work for and was incredibly generous to us on this project and is also runs a company of people who've worked together for decades and really says a lot about him but that he likes to say and I think he's right that our films are a journey and a process of discovery and I think to echo what Len just said This film is more of that than anything I've worked on for sure yeah I mean our vision really from the beginning was just we want to know what it's like for the people who are incarcerated and college students at the same time and what is what is part of their experiences and how are we going to get access to that how are we going to have find a way for them to tell their stories we didn't really know what that would look like to be honest if you look at our original proposal they had all kinds of ideas of various talking heads they were going to be the x. Birds and we're going to speak about the issues and we were going to focus on certain students we didn't really know I mean you know we we started with kind of a blank slate or an empty page and. We just try to Sarah saying we're open to what's there and as we experienced spending time with the students and in the facilities and with the faculty and trying to understand all the dynamics at work we came up with ideas of what things we could people because certain questions and it's just became iterative and of often one of the things that we really found credibly compelling in the storytelling was. Sort of by happenstance actually our very 1st day of filming we were preparing to do interviews is what we normally do with people so we had a lineup of people who were going to interview and they were kind of. Into a classroom and the other people who were waiting were in another room and while they were waiting with those 3 guys they started talking about the value of a liberal arts education about what they were studying about the class they were taking on the history of tragedy and they started discussing at a fest and a fellow and you know what does it mean what does the word tragedy mean and they got into a very deep conversation and we began to realize wait we should be filming in here grab the camera and come in here so we started filming that scene and then we realized that the conversations among the students were way more interesting than us doing formal interviews so at that point you know we'd like to put you guys together and just you guys talk about whatever you want and we'll just film it and you know that process of alde over time as things happened in the course of the narrative that were really important some of the students getting in trouble talking about you know what it was like when they had a graduation and then you know what was the impact on their families different aspects of their lives they were talking to each other not to us and that became a central aspect of the film and didn't set out and beginning to say oh that's how we're going to you know represent us right I did I was going to say that the conversations amongst the students and the ideas that the students had as we were making the film actually informed as much of how the film evolved as anything else and they're kind of interest and dedication and investment in what we were doing. Also. The film really becomes so much about them and they were normally generous to us in helping us figure out what we were doing while we were doing it and I think essential to the film are those group conversations in the library at one of the facilities and the women the same the women were often outside of the picnic table and I think the very 1st time we shot in in that prison our favorite thing to film was just the women sitting around a picnic table talking about every aspect of their day could hang all the classes they had just taken right you know Syria and I talked a little bit before the show and one of the things that kept striking me as I consider myself liberal and open mind and all that but I kept being struck again and again that I kept being surprised at the level of intellect at the level of discourse at the difficulty of the college courses this is not remedial reading this is not something where a person like me would look and say I get that class no I couldn't use that class and I think what kept hitting me upside the head was I shouldn't be that surprised that a diverse group of people has a variety of of intellectual levels and some of those will be very high instead I was thinking subconsciously prisoners probably not that smart and I didn't know I thought that until I watched the videos so do you get that kind of reaction from people because this was a learning experience for me. To get that reaction and I will say that I've also in some of the students have said they themselves one of the students described coming into the library the 1st time he was you know admitted to the program and listening to guys talking about linear algebra guys over here speaking Mandarin and him thinking Wait I didn't realize that there are people who could do this in this place so I think there is that level of bending conventional wisdom and surprise but you're absolutely right to say we should not be surprised in the slightest at all. What other subconscious prejudices and perceptions do you think this series of films will help people overcome or could at least get them to confront Well I think you have brought it up a couple of times and Sebastian is very thoughtful about this that you know a lot of people think of what's going on in prison as m s n b c late at night locked up. And actually that isn't representative of what's happening a lot of the time in our prisons so we like to say that you know you can write an essay or a book or doing radio show but actually the power of the medium of what we do is to bring cameras into worlds that some people don't see and try again with time and patience and understanding and dignity show that world in a new way hopefully to change the dialogue in our country tell me about your decision about how and when to discuss what got each of these people behind bars to begin with and you did bring them in slowly and separately per person so tell me about that decision we gave that quite a lot of thought as you can imagine and different process of trial and error in the in the context of editing the film with our editor Tricia rady to figure out exactly how we thought that would work best but the central sort of. Organizing Principle was that it we felt it was extremely important to get to know people as human beings who they are where they're from what they're interested in their family what drives them all those things and when you really know someone then you can find out thrilly. Intimate truth about them and that they would tell it the way they wanted too. When we had sort of as a viewer earned that privilege you know and I think to Sarah's point about the sort of stereotypes about people who are incarcerated and the way these things are represented in criminal justice in general is that when the late you know the media generally you are. If someone if a subject of a piece is someone's incarcerate the very 1st thing you're going to be told is what their crime was right and then it's pretty hard to not have that be the label or the the domination definition of the person and we really wanted our film to be the exact opposite of that one of the things we've we've realized in just over the top because it was actually 7 years from the 1st time we went into a prison and thought we might make this film to the film coming out that in the course of that time our country's conversation around criminal justice reform has really changed and higher educations place in that context of criminal justice reform has really changed along with what I think or our hope that the film will do is take the conversation a little bit away from innocence and nonviolent. Violence as a way to safely examined criminal justice and talk about. People's histories and crimes and why they're incarcerated and that life is. More complicated no wants to not just one thing people aren't just one thing how we think about who's in prison needs to be rethought So that is I think actually a central hope for us of what the film can do and just adds a little bit which is that in all the conversation about mass incarceration which is. A terrible injustice on every level and particularly of facts communities of color. We're not going to solve it unless we get because when we talk about nonviolent drug offenders and people who are innocent and falsely convicted even if we let everybody out of prison in jail who fits that category we're not going to make a super significant dent in mass incarceration so we actually have to wrestle with and reckon with something that comes up as a question and we've never decided it as a culture is what are we putting people in prison for is it about rehabilitation is it about punishment is a some blend of the 2 does somebody get a 2nd chance or the criminals forever I mean it seems like we can't solve that as a system until we solve that within ourselves as a country that our moral and ethical stance on that absolutely yes and we as a country haven't really probably made a conscious decision about that. And we would love to talk at great length about how we got to where we are it might be too much of a detour but to say that for the last 25 years certainly if not longer the primary unstated purpose and I'm just as a president has been to exert punishment as the commissioner of New York State from a correction it is punishment enough just to be incarcerated so to add additional punishment on top of that by depriving people of the chance to have access to programs like college and other things that they would help to make it possible for them to reenter society in a productive way. And that is $0.90 right and just that 95 percent of the people who are incarcerated are going to come home yes so we as a country have to reckon with that and so that forces the question of you know what should prison before and I think we always say that the film is asking too central questions who in our country should and does have access to education and what is prison for. Now strictly as filmmakers it has to be absolutely delicious to have a set up like a debate team from a prison and go up against the choice debaters From heard I mean that's a kiss from heaven that you. Own Can you talk about setting that situation up with in the film Well we found out that the president had a debate team pretty early in the 1st week is shooting right so yeah and that was a year before the. The debate against Harvard so one of the 1st things we did was say oh debate that sounds interesting maybe we could film that so we were able to film them practicing for a debate 1st and we just got a sense of the dynamic and what was so wonderful about that is to see the students coaching each other there's a debate coach a wonderful debate coach David register but he really opens it up to the students are critiquing each other they're practicing their debating with their arguing or you know critiquing each other about how to make the argument they need to make in the debate and then practicing and revising and doing it again and there's a level of regular seriousness. And sort of determination and that practice session that I think sets up everything that happens afterwards so yes very shocked about the day that they beat Harvard it was exciting yeah. As Lynn said it was sort of a happy accident that the debate team sort of surface to one of the things as we were trying to figure out what we were doing to your previous question. And then obviously if they're debating Harvard we're going to be there with our cameras and we were at their most intense period of editing our Vietnam series actually so Lynn was in New Hampshire and I went with. Camera crew to that debate and you know probably they had no idea it was going to happen and they won and I think then we didn't have any idea what would happen internationally so that story was well I think like the 3rd most viral shared story in the world after the a.p. Picked it up so as some people like to say it's a it's an indication of how much our country likes it when Harvard loses. But also just. It it was and it was just an amazing thing for the film for the students for the program for just our country to sort of think about. All of this a little bit differently so it was a fun day it's an interesting contrast to the prison movies America grew up with you know James Cagney going to prison for whatever and then up through the forty's there was always a montage of headlines you know bodies found prosecutor blah blah blah and you have this montage of headlines that go from the English to you know the German to whatever about this win in a Harvard and it just it again sets apart this difference between our old understandings of what's possible with the prison system and our new understanding of that was kind of lens just interrupt you that was one of lens great ideas was just we have a wonderful graphic designer Butland said let's just take their reaction around the world and do something visually really fun with it so going into all the different languages or all the different tweets and Twitter feeds and Facebook and that was a really great idea unless part of the fun yeah and then we love that we go back into prison and see the guys talking about it as well so they're reacting to the social media storm and you know hearing from their friends and family that while you're on the Internet and you know everyone's talking about you and you know that's a wonderful way to kind of triangulate the different perspectives as well I have at least remember that after that happened one of the students who was on the team. I had occasion to. Back to his brother on the phone because we were playing to his brother has was not incarcerated and we're trying to get a shoot with him and it was the day after the story broke and he said You see there you know it's a it's the Wall Street Journal article and so I mean it really permeated around the world in a really amazing way you know I think the program itself also they had they had literally had to have people come in to answer the phones for a week yeah there's been nothing like that it happened. I'm very privileged to talk to both of you I could do much more of it to we're also going to have the privilege of meeting 2 of the graduates of the program so I mean to say goodbye to you I'll say hello to them in just a moment thank you so much for being with us I appreciate it thank you for having us this is going to be record. Welcome back to Indy by Mandy Curry you've been hearing the voices of Leno Vic and Sarah but seen up to this point director and producer of the new documentary series college behind bars that is coming to p.b.s. In November now I am very pleased to be able to bring you 2 of the successes profiled in the series defining Hernandez and silly Israel it's so good to have you both here thank you and you have the pleasure let me start with you Giovanni what made you get into the Bard initiative in the 1st place interesting enough it was another Bard who was already in the program who you just say you know was friends with like this low young kid who just used to be in the yard maybe work out play basketball and you know he he knew from having been a b.p.i. How transformative was how beneficial it could be and especially for someone like at the age of the guy was like 21 it came at a very pivotal point I feel like I was about halfway into my concentration sentence like it and so he basically came to me with the application and I was just like here you're going to sit down and going to focus out and I was like I don't know if I want to but he was a 5 No you're going to fill it out and I sat down after I found that out called he took the exam I got it and it was. It was the moment for me which like my life changed before I knew it changed. I wanted same question over to you silly How did you get into this and what were you expecting to know what to expect actually. I don't know what a liberal arts education was I thought of it like writing poetry or planet or my hand eye coordination is very bad I was like I don't have a chance of doing that and I did have is this like this idea that college was not definite one of the deal. I was at that time maybe 6 years into my 20 year sentence at the time and I knew that I had a lot of time left to do and I didn't want to waste it and I knew it if college I wanted then again I didn't have any idea what to watch was rather scrubber while actually what the process was this is based on approach education that is very discourse of interdisciplinary where instead of like literally sand you know you need to be on one track you like you have an understanding grasp of many different ways of thinking about things yes all discourse which can like totally open my mind and brought my perspective on how to understand other people's perspectives how to respect it with people's perspectives how to have the tools to and whether it was perspectives and tells my injury and how I got in one of the score but when I got it in terms of seeing myself you know this idea of being on screen and I remember 1st I'm watching this particular film it was a very emotional moment I was of course I was released before the film was finished and you know watching my peers watching my friends my fellow students men that I had lived with for a long time and even see I myself in that environment and watching the progression of what education would offer them it was like it was like this out of body experience you know sometimes when you're in a mix of you know in a process of influence and something that you don't appreciate as much as you do if you go to Kansas that back you see it and this film was like a very good opportunity to step back in really get in. Site into what that process is and you know we talk about 4 years that process it was a 4 year process you watch men and women who got into college and watched them for 4 years and what college did for them and what they did for themselves to college education and so that part was like emotional and I think that when I walked away Ethel my women with that experience it was think about it on the stand about what I was doing and what the party defeated on the stand much more at less of a film too funny did the nature of your relationships behind bars change with your education absolutely How could they not I feel that like anyone who goes through this process of education right you gain the tools to sort of like like Saudi had just said to sort of like orient yourself in the world you know if you have these understanding of the world in a different way and that will always affect the way you move through the world I know with us for me things like I was able to help my sister were homework from inside because me a lot of been taking the same classes when she was in college like that bonded us in a way that I didn't have and in another means of bonding us in that way you know when it came to like academics and I've been able to help her from and from in prison. Also I feel for me that. My experience with b.p.i. Helped me to think in a different way and so I was able to make decisions write more intentional decisions about like how I would respond or not respond to things so absolutely changed the way I interacted in my relationships with people around me you know in all in positive ways honestly when in fact Lynne and Sarah and I were talking a bit about the treachery of life in prison that a misstep can screw up all your best plans we did see one of the students who fell out of the program ended up in another prison and wasn't hasn't yet been able to resume that time about that balancing act silly about trying to be and do your best knowing that putting one foot wrong could mess this all up for you I mean deep in that what it means to. You know sometimes we think about one foot wrong being you know somebody has something very violent happen in prison or doing some very violent one foot to be simple idea myself you have I mean you've given your license you can't be in prison you can't walk around without your i.d. So some extent was always sleeping when you had a call out you know program got to be at you know the slit those are things that nobody can get you know what they call keep lock which means you will miss time you know up to 30 days for you know not falling that wasn't as harsh as we assume we are in prison a prison has a lot of rules that are there is a shells and it's something that you know we as you know in our state individuals we condition ourselves to basically live within those parameters. But I don't want to and I don't want to get into the stereotype that you know doing some long prison you know someone leaves the program had to be different very bad right there are things that can cause you to miss class that are very simple things that happen everyday life like forgetting your keys in a case that was ideal or you know you wish that. So all of those things are things that you have to constantly navigate this is a fine line you know every day. Everything is everything is hypervelocity and present comes with like rules are you know you can walk in ability got to get off you're not where you had on the side you coming off Nicole need to go fast enough and it's not an excuse for anyone understand this which you have to navigate in terms of keeping track of things that change every day and we will be every day and how you will to be there when those things can affect how you experience college so you're literally called upon to be perfect in everything to keep doing what you're doing. I'm going to I'm not your profession but you have to be careful in everything that you do well yet you have to be mindful and conscious and careful in everything that you do. One of the most difficult episodes within the film to watch was the student who ended up in secure housing because he had included obscenity use inside a piece of writing he was doing that underlined probably more than anything else for me as a viewer the difference in the 2 worlds if you're in a class that requires you to write an advanced level you're rewarded for your explanation of all kinds of worlds and layers of the world which would include of sanity bad things dark things whatever sex and as someone who's a member of the prison system you don't even have that freedom to explore your own mind in writing that boggled me just boggled me. But it again is that is dead but the navigation then in things shift you know when it happens you know that the student if you talk about he did that that there would be something which is something Now once that's triggered you have a hold of us that I was going to come up behind that that everyone else would be responsible for right so so another thing is dynamic that the way men and women live in prison is all mine I mean a lot of times you don't exist until someone decided I don't like what I think happened or you know that thing that you just did what you thought was perfectly fine you know and he spores in the film that he didn't know what he was like the one hand he was a me it bothered him that it wanted to be more he understood. Me But in a moment it was like this hard core very clear cut and he had crossed the he was there right that was there because the person who happened to take it off the printer. Decided that I don't like the way that sounds and behind that comes a whole other set of rules and regulations that every student behind him now has those doors those emotional or mental barriers to be able to explore and express themselves in terms of the education they're receiving Do you find you did you feel constrained as to what you could do academically because of what was happening around you in the prison system. Absolutely. And to be more clear I once said that like because big to be in prison whether you are or aren't you're always sort of you have this awareness that you're under supervision of some sort right they could be someone watching that could not be so much you don't know and so you sort of operate that there might be someone watching all the time and so use you know you you can regulate how you operate throughout your day and in terms of academia Yes we're college students and we're treated like concerts and we had to kind of go to the same level as college students for our work but we also must you know not. In the present and that is a very partake a very distinct environment and I think. There are complex rules and sometimes things don't count becoming fractions and so on. And they already occurred you know that's a rigged game exactly and so when you know you're operating in an environment like that you sort of can't help the police in some ways because you don't want to get caught out there and it could this could this rub someone the wrong way maybe not the who's the right because you can never really speak for someone else or how they would take something especially if you're approaching something from that the vet is probably a student I'm just trying to do the best of my best of my ability with this assignment that was given to me right. Or add that the us thought that is because of those constraints that the level of rigor the level of insight the level of curiosity is also like that's mentioned multiplied meaning that when we get into the classroom. You know inside a classroom there is mostly right in that house we don't have access to Google we don't have access to mean rocking on I use Google for the 1st time was like oh my gosh I mean I couldn't you have to give something perspective at the drop the dom but when you have 14 or 15 men from various different backgrounds various different ethnicities various different affiliations and you have a text something like you know you use Moby Dick as one example you know you can do so in a question of what is virtue or is a social contract comes up and everyone is man has a perspective on it and they've been reading things that speak that is now in a position on it to be able to have that exchange I think with all the constraints that you could think of there's no handicap that we have here which is we want a quick answer I've been here I've been home for most 3 years I'm becoming accustomed to quick answer like I'm talking to my fiancee's I'm going to quit and somebody does me good for me. It's not a that's not a you know I'm not judging anybody why I'm Stan is that when you had that absent that is as I want to know more and I need to work to know more and it isn't and you know what I have to do now was that this summer is not about the book and I want to get the summary for myself right so there are those constraints there is something of a con the what happens in those classrooms about what used to happen in education process when it's at its best in any environment where that is best so it kind of like creates the environment to make sure we basically. Ensure that that is intact and that is basically utilize the best educational principles you can think of which is hall work commitment curiosity and act commitment. To Vonnie I understand it's 3 years ago today he that you got out yes September 19th 2600 and I was released about 3 years ago today exactly Well I'm the sort that do you do something special what do you. Know I live in and I just you know I revel in the fact that like I'm still here I'm fortunate to still be out here I know a lot of p. . I will return back to prison after you know within 3 years and you know I'm just blessed to not you know be part of that group on. And so I don't necessary market but in any I don't do anything special or out of the ordinary outside the fact that I may you know I know that I've made it another year right here it is. For me personally it's an accomplishment every year I make a keep you know if they out. Is an accomplishment because it's it's just it's a complicated situation you're in even when you are released right now you know release them I thought you're being released under supervision. That's a complex web to navigate as well with being free and also being not free and so it's so you know it's really easy for people to sort of you know receive a return back to prison and I just can't. Stress how fortunate I feel for the likes they'll be out here and still continuing to fight for something better for the people who are not here and who will be out here I have to tell you when the the ongoing stories of everyone when they were concluded at the end with shots of who they are what they're doing today. There's so much joy with that picture of you standing before a Jackson Pollock an artist that we had learned by now that you truly admire and you're struck by his complexity and there you are in front of a giant Jackson Pollock free looking at this thing and having all the time in the world to look at it must've been just incredible that was incredible you know because that was a painting I'd only seen in pictures for so long that I was just like I wonder how like I wonder what it feels like to actually stand in front of a you know they give you the dimensions but you can't really envision that in your head and say you know what with this. 10 feet really look like and you sit there and your psych wall this thing is Hugh dry the complexity of it it's expanded when you actually are able to put it you know a perceive just how big it is and how complex but just how beautiful it is it was really a moment for me that is that like you know this is what life is about. I have an odd question to finish with I'm just curious one of our audience members wanted to know if their actual degrees that you see for the program and of course you do you actually see your diploma ceremony Yes I'm just curious and let me start with you silly Where's your diploma right now. Yes I have a couple. Fortunately my diploma is sitting on my mother's. In a chain is under my literally when he was a mother I want you want to zoos this moment to say something at this early about in the gym is it will do so in terms of you know the progression of the film and the how it captures you know the humanity of just realize situations I'm not so much in prison but you know life is this thing that goes up and down and out of. You know left and right and and sometimes it comes back to the center where it's hope it and I think that a film I think that moment with Johnny in front of Jackson Pollock in jewel Hall you'll meet a film you want to train those moments so when I got my which I had which is. Not to be a language of the show to focus on German and my mother was that overregulation Jenny I was 16 and when after my da I got my b.a. I got a letter in the mail and this is in 2009 I get a letter from a mother in his basically her accent is that it's a stock in State College right and over the next. 16 has m.s.w. Right now that she received So I mean the impact of how you know. You know in one level there is the person who commit a crime in prison that you know we want to hope for but then there's the interconnectivity of we come from systems that have all kinds of complex insulations within them particularly for men and women of color who come from particular farmers that basically have to be to the prison system and we you know sometimes we could forget that there is this complex relationships that happen even if the victims themselves exist and that complex needs relationships and I think that every man the film came to education came to that realization in their family comes there was Asian and I think that the films are a great job of allowing those narratives to stand for themselves. Thank you for that where's your diploma my mom alongside the picture of my g.d. Graduation and the picture of my b.p.i. Graduation as well alone my sister's degree in her pictures of you know she's really proud of the fact that like you know her children are competition things that she may not have had a chance to accomplish this might the struggles that we had and you know I think that that's you know it's makes me proud to make her proud in that way right and I just want to continue to just move forward and just you know. Continually make her proud but just you know do something with my life that at the end of the day I can feel proud about myself you know. I'm so proud for both of you I just I'm so impressed I'm just I'm so jazzed to have you here today thank you so much to have you so much for having us. Those are the voices of Giovanni Hernandez and silly Izrael we've been talking about college behind bars if you've missed any portion of our conversation you can find it online at in deep Radio dot com Today show was produced at in cooperation with the Dragon theatre We're here every other week for our daytime programs in addition to our evening shows and Kepler's books you can keep up with our charmingly erratic schedule by signing up for our newsletter send your email address to info at in deep Radio dot com Our producer is Melinda Kapoor Engineer Scott MacDowell associate engineer is Britney Lee Wagner are closing music is by David Gans the in deep dog is bear our founding producer is Gordon Whiting special thanks to Kim wood decking here at the Dragon I man she co-wrote Thanks for tuning in the. Pinney's hula Humane Society. 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To Radio survivor we're here for the love of radio and sound. Everybody I'm Eric glad it's so good to be here to share our love of radio and sound with the audience and I'm Jennifer waits It's great to be with the 2 of you again we've a lot of things to talk about today I've actually kind of like to start out a little bit though I want to reintroduce ourselves folks may be tuning in for the 1st time hearing us on the radio or tuning in to our podcast for the 1st time and is like Who are these 3 people to talk about the radio and to talk about sounded podcasting Internet radio where what are their bona fide and a certain kind of radio that we love most yes indeed which I'm going to say community radio it's a loaded word but it still fits really nicely into the media Jennifer please tell us how do you come to this expertise that you have and what is this expertise what radio Our love the most I know this is that it's a big question so I particularly love college radio and some of that stems from having done college radio for a really long time and I still do college radio and I think about it every day I like unexpected surprising radio especially of the noncommercial nature so my expertise I guess comes from not only having done college radio but also digging in and writing about it for academic publications.