City 91.5 Greeley Fort Collins k e n c 90.7 s. This park. 90.9 at Mintern Vale k r n c 88.5 Steamboat Springs. 90.7 Breckenridge Ok there is Joshua Johnson the host of one over the years we can accumulate a lot of stuff and if it's time to get rid of an unwanted vehicle donated to k.u.n.c. The proceeds will benefit your favorite shows it's easy to get started right now the details are online at. Www dot org. If you're listening to me right now you're a public radio believer someone who believes in the importance of fact based news someone who wants to hear all sides of the story if that sounds like you can support the diverse coverage you care about by becoming a k.u.n.c. Member at k.u.n.c. Dot org And thanks. Hello and welcome to the forum from the b.b.c. World Service with me Bridget Kendall loot the looters turn Russia upside down peace is the slogan of Filon Steinsson priests the proletariat slogan must be civil war on quotes from Vladimir Lenin the leader of the Bolsheviks who seized power in Russia in 1917 and plunged it into civil war what was to tear the country apart a battle for power involving multiple factions vying to determine Russia's future pitching Lenin's botia big red army against a loose alliance of white forces by the time it was Lenin who declared victory millions have died in battle and many move being executed so what exactly triggered the civil war could it have been avoided and was it inevitable that a communist dictatorship would follow I'll be joined by 3 historians all experts on the Russian Civil War to help us on rival this complex conflict or on the forum after the news. Other units with the b.b.c. News Democratic presidential candidates in the u.s. Have condemned Donald Trump after a senior diplomat Gordon sambal and testified that the president had directed efforts to press Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden the left wing Senator Bernie Sanders told a televised debate with 9 all the candidates that Mr Trump was corrupt and the pathological Mr Biden himself said it was clear Mr Trump didn't want to face him in the 2020 lection another of the frontrunners Senator Elizabeth Warren had this to say about the testimony of Ambassador I want to add one more part based on today's testimony and that is how did ambassadors get there you know this is not a man who had any qualifications except one he wrote a check for a $1000000.00 And that tells us about what's happening in Washington the corruption how money buys its way into Washington. The term Democratic Party candidates also vowed to alter radically the foreign policy pursued by Donald Trump Joe Biden said the u.s. Must make clear to China that Washington stood for the human rights of people such as the week has and protestors in Hong Kong the technology entrepreneur I'm too young was asked what he would say in his 1st phone call to the Russian president Vladimir Putin if he wanted to be elected 1st I'd say I'm sorry Beecher No I. Was not sorry sorry. And 2nd I would say the days of meddling in American elections are over and we will take any undermining of our democratic process to use as an act of hostility and aggression firefighters in Australia are battling almost 200 bush fires across the country in the state of Victoria residents have been told to be prepared to leave their homes has for Massa for the 1st time in almost a decade a code red warning the highest fire level was issued for the Australian state of Victoria residents named Diana writes northwest of Melbourne have been told it's too dangerous to leave as a large grass fire burns out of control smoke from bushfires says again blanketed Sydney with a toxic haze all far it is in Australia's biggest city have also announced the toughest water restrictions in 10 years a new study has warned that a 3rd of tropical African plants are on the path to extinction there was silence led by French scientists say much of West Africa Ethiopia and parts of dams and here and the Democratic Republic of Congo could lose more than 40 percent of their Flora they say plant life is being threatened by De Forest station pump elation growth and climate change this is the world news from the baby Suri. Pope Francis has condemned the exploitation of women and children in the sex industry during the 1st full day of his visit to Thailand addressing politicians and diplomats at the prime minister's office the pope praised the efforts of the Thai government and private organizations to eradicate this scourge as he pointed the head of the Roman Catholic Church also called for migrants to be welcomed saying they had had to endure a tragic exodus from their countries the United Nations nuclear watchdog the i.a.e.a. Meets later today to discuss further breaches by Iran over its nuclear deal with world powers nuclear inspectors say that Iran's stock of heavy water is now higher than permitted under the terms of the agreement more from Bethany Bell Iran has also received uranium enrichment and its underground site full of the i.a.e.a. Also wants to Iran to explain the origin of uranium pasta cols discovered It's an undeclared fight in Iraq the United States withdrew from the nuclear deal last year it's test sanctions and what it calls maximum pressure will full see Iran to negotiate a broad agreement political uncertainty has deepened in Israel after the Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was main challenger Benny Gunston gave up efforts to form an administration after missing a deadline on Wednesday night Mr Ganns blamed his rival for the failure Mr Netanyahu was given the 1st chance to build a coalition but he was also unsuccessful. Google has announced its stopping highly targeted political advertising on its platforms the new policy will prevent advertisers using political affiliations and voter records to aim their messages at specific individuals advertisers will be limited to using gender age and graphical location. On pineapple dying on Grouse your days are numbered Laos the words of the celebrated Soviet Persian artist Vladimir Mayakovsky adopted as one of the slogans for the 917 October Revolution and the communist schools in the Russian Civil War that soon followed but while the revolution which brought Lenin and his bullshit party to pass was almost bloodless the subsequent civil war was one of the most brutal and chaotic periods of Russian history it was a power struggle at every level and much more than just a war between czarist and communist forces involving workers peasants and of his as well as nationalists from Poland to Ukraine and 11 foreign powers the whole Russian Empire descended into turmoil as witnessed by the humorist writer known as Tevye in 1900. 70 some wily devil his stick someone young must go and began spinning Russia like a whirlwind top. Pieces are flying in various directions like Spock's the Crimea the casus Poland Little Russia. Finland to the Baltic region side b. Area. We all move soon only this stick will remain. The Civil War ended in 121 but in many ways it was key in shaping the new. You Soviet state and even Russia's identity today and it raises many questions how was it a small extremist party like the Bolsheviks managed to seize power why did the Civil War end up crushing hopes for Russian democracy did lay the groundwork for a start ins dictatorship or could things have gone differently Hello I'm Bridget Kendall and welcome to the forum where experts share their knowledge with us joining me to discuss the Russian Civil War Dr cause she got to have gotta lead curator of the Russian and East European collections at the British Library in London Nora angle Stein professor emeritus of Russian history at Yale University in the United States and author of Russia in flames and Stephen Smith professor of history at Oxford University and author of Russia in revolution Let's start by looking at the triggers for the Russian Civil War Some are still had ended after the revolution of February 917 and this was followed by a provisional government which was then overthrown in the same called October Revolution and by Lenin and the Bolsheviks Steve can you briefly explain how you see this chain of events the setting the seeds for the civil war that followed the separate Lucian's occurs against the backdrop of the 1st World War Russian was involved in the war and the expectation of the politicians who came to power in the provisional government was the revolution might actually revive the war effort. For many the revolution was about the achievement of a more just and equal society these were socialists of different stripes and they were represented by something called the Soviet Soviet means council but Soviets were bodies that were based in the working class and to some extent in the army and they wanted peace they wanted an end to this long and brutal war the Bolsheviks were the only group that had a militant opposition to the war which they considered to be an imperialist war a war for conquest of war in which the allies stood for territorial gain and they began to pick up support So this is one of the trick is then this dispute about whether or not to continue with the 1st World War Both thing to that constituency that works in the presence know we can offer the peace instead another trigger that's often talks about scholarship is that off to the Bolshevik Revolution the October Revolution there was a move by Lenin to dissolve the constituent assembly which was supposed to take place which had the impact of divesting other parties of the chance of power can you talk about what your view is about this how important was this as a poke in the right for Russia that point which led to civil war the provisional government was called professional because the idea was that the so-called constituent assembly will be elected in a way you can call it palm and become the real it because these are the real government Exactly yeah set the scene for the real government and elections that took place and by that time socialists of various types where really very popular one of the most popular parties. And later the majority in the custody as assembly was the party all for social revolution that so they were socialists but they were supported by peasants and so they logically should have been the people to form the next government absolutely but the Bolsheviks moved in to stop it what happened yes so that's why that decision was taken to dissolve the assembly and rule as that one single party I suppose a key question at this early time Lura is there was all this maneuvering going on to try and get power but how was it that the Bolsheviks managed in these early weeks months to establish a monopoly of power how far was it about already cracking the whip because very very early on in December 19th 17 right they set up what was known as the Czech car which became essentially the Secret Service to the origin of the organization which later became known as the end Kavi day the k.g.b. Today is known as the f.s.b. So was that a key factor in all of this and what the Bolsheviks would doing that from the very beginning never patch be ruthless let me just back up of it when the Bolsheviks announced that the decree of peace that the Russians were going to withdraw from the war the commander in chief at the time refused to authorize it and it's in this sort of tense moment that the Bolsheviks the set up that your car as a political police designed to fight against what they called counter revolution subversion and so on but in fact to fight against different forms of opposition and when and really had to maneuver the situation when they do conclude the peace this outrage not only the anti Bolshevik right but also the anti Bolshevik left and in particular the socialist revolutionaries start instigating assassinations revolts and. It's at this point that that should cause power and remit is extended I'm already beginning to get the picture that actually working out what came 1st was it a hard crackdown on which prompted a reaction was it the reaction which then created a tougher discipline at the center to try and counter it it's all very complex and difficult to discern time but we've been hearing about a number of reasons why the civil war might have started but let's look at what happened next Steve what about the former czarist forces if you mobilized against the Bolsheviks How did this happen who were they exactly at this early point well the form of czarist forces were really czarist officers by this stage the mass of the rank and file soldiers were busily going back to their villages because there was very little food and the Bolsheviks had committed themselves to peace but there were several tens of thousands former officers who felt that Russia. Had been shamed and that the Bolsheviks were a diet threat to what they called Russian statehood Russia's on the as an imperial power the turd had huge influence in Europe and in Asia and they decided that the best place to try and organize military opposition was in the south of Ukraine in the area that was occupied by the dawn Cossacks and the Cossacks were historically a number of groups 8 or 9 that had received certain privileges from these are in return for defending the from tears of the Russian Empire they were rather militaristic in their culture and in the eyes of the czarist officers the most likely. Group in society to provide a base. Group of soldiers who would fight for the honor of Russia. So we're already getting a picture of the various different groups who talked about the social revolutionaries here is not easy being put out of joint because they've been elevated side by the Bolsheviks we have full czarist officers you see the Bolsheviks is a da threat. Joining up with the Cossacks we now have white generals and then Kucha there are all the groups that joined in to enlist Intriguingly in May 1918 I think it is a check legion of 30000 troops who've been in the Czar is Tommy who now anti Bush if they decided to join the opposition forces to the Czech Legion they went travelling from the fronts of the 1st world war back home but surprisingly they were not given access to go to the west straight back to their native lands so they had to travel through the whole Russia across Siberia across Iberia and to be honest they were not really keen on intervening in anything which was happening in Russia they just wanted to go home and as sometimes happens in a war the temperature is too high. They started fighting and simply because there was a demand to dissolve one or 2 of their men and they didn't want to and that's how it all happened so they had to they didn't choose it right it's a kind of symbol of the chaos of the civil Woolridge Yes it wasn't just the Czech legions you got drawn in Steve the were also other foreign powers he became involved want indeed the armistice comes in November 918 technically the Brits in the. Arctic there in our home Girls Gone Wild Manske the French were in the Black Sea The British are in the Caspian looking after or oil in Baquba and then a very sizable contingent of u.s. Japanese troops in the Far East they technically should have withdrawn but there is real anxiety about the Bolsheviks threat is articulated very well by Churchill who is a minister in the British government of this period who talks about strangling the baby of Bolshevism in its cradle so what had been initially attempt to try and maintain military action by the allies on the Eastern Front does turn more and more into an anti bullshit crusade this interesting cause here isn't it that in the in the way we talk about the Russian Civil War we talk about the Reds and the whites the Red Army which is the Bolsheviks the communists the whites which is the anti push right to know where these 2 terms came from. That was one of Lenin's tricks and a very clever one and worked really well as a propaganda device so that all the opponents of the Bolsheviks where branded as whites and whether they were mana casts socialist revolution of a is a nationalists and I kissed all of them were cold whites and that gave Lenin and the Bolsheviks an opportunity to position the enemy in a way that dehumanize it to the point that you don't really need to understand what the goals of the enemy or what they want who they are so they they just the whites. As the civil war got underway with the strengthening of the white opposition the Reds had no option but to format or not. Many soldiers who workers and peasants that Lenin encouraged by describing the enemy as international company lists and Russian landowners and I can because. I don't want it but. I think that. Is the point and open to. God I love what I didn't think of because. Yes. That's the voice of Lennon himself addressing the Red Army but it was actually a fellow a revolutionary Leon Trotsky who really turned the army into an effective fighting force Norah give me some examples of what he did and how he maintained discipline the Army took a long time to consolidate and along the way the Red Army relied on irregular forces partisan groups with their own leaders their own lack of discipline in their own use of violence and it was part of Trotsky's strategy to use them as long as they were needed but actually gradually to bring them under Central Command and at the same time not just to use coercion to install discipline but to use propaganda education to instill a spirit a new kind of spirit in this Russian army it's interesting that you mention propaganda Laura because some of the ways that Trotsky used to keep the army together a fascinating he had a moment a car which took the country showing good films it was a new leg a for the Red Army created the red star and there was even a text devised for the Red Army soldiers to recites which was structured rather like a religious catechism Who are you. If they ask you that. Defender of the poor across the world what are you fighting for for justice so that the lands and factories and the rewards and forests and the wealth belong to the rocking people how do you fight the enemy and without mercy until I crush him. It's fascinating to hear that is one reason that 700 years almost a country Lenin described his rule as dictatorship of the proletariat and the was an active use of tyrant wasn't also noticed a measure of it the population through propaganda but also to. That to coerce it yes definitely and this was another Lennon Strix when he actually flipped the term dictator or dictatorship because obviously even them the term had negative connotations but what Lenin was saying yes this is dictatorship but this is dictatorship not off one person or a small minority this is dictatorship of the majority and they are for giving this kind of dictatorial rule as if in they had the hands of the people themselves that was what he was saying of course what was happening in real life was quite different because that was real terror and the red Terra became a system and it was inherited by the Soviet Union and later led to what we call the Stalin regime. So this red terror leads one to another question another major problem facing the Bolsheviks which is lack of food and starvation especially in the cities because of this need to provide food especially to the cities led to a policy called War Communism didn't do it can you tell us about that yes and that was the again the very ruthless policy that was introduced during the civil war because there was no supply of food from the villages to to sit as and obviously air but the Red Army needed supply and that is why the Bolsheviks took the decision to go for this policy that was Rick was issued just requisition and the peasants well left not only without food but without crops for the next year. And that put them in a terrible condition Well certainly there was a great deal of brutality and violence in the Soviet Jewish writer Isaac bubble