Allowed individuals sleeping outside to be prosecuted even when no other shelter was available the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals called this cruel and unusual punishment and a violation of the Constitution a number of communities trying to deal with their own homelessness problems had urged the Supreme Court to take up the case which it has declined to do leaving the fate of other anti homeless laws in doubt Pam Fessler n.p.r. News Washington awakes being held today in New Jersey for the police detective killed in last week's shooting in Jersey City N.P.R.'s Jeff Brady says the detective was killed at a cemetery by 2 armed suspects who killed 3 other people at a kosher grocery store Jersey City police detective Joseph seals is being remembered for his work trying to get illegal guns off the streets tomorrow a procession is planned from the funeral home to a local church over the weekend a memorial service was held for Douglas Rodriquez an employee of the market he'll be buried this week in his native Ecuador N.P.R.'s Jeff Brady authorities are calling the shootings domestic terrorism the u.s. Envoy to North Korea is urging that country to restart denuclearization talks on boy Stephen began is rejecting North Korea's demand of an end of the year deadline to make concessions install nuclear negotiations begin says the u.s. Has put forward many constructive ideas and says North Korea does not need to resort to hostilities North Korea says it conducted another test over the weekend that one of its satellite launch sites on Wall Street the Dow is up 171 points this is n.p.r. . The f.b.i. Says officials in Houston have arrested in 1000 year old man in connection with mercury spills on Sunday dozens of people were decontaminated in 3 Houston locations yesterday the f.b.i. Says Christopher Meldrum has been arrested and charged with burglary unlawful disposal of hazardous material and outstanding drug. Laurent the World Health Organization reports more than a 3rd of the world's low income countries are suffering from both under nutrition and obesity at the same time he says flying reports from Geneva the report finds this epidemic of underage Christian and overweight is leading to an increase in deaths and disease from both communicable and noncommunicable diseases the lead author of the report Francesco Braga blames this largely on highly processed food you have about 103 families who have and take child and an overweight mothers it's a paradox the quality of the food is absolutely poor so not enough freedom and minerals and and cheap. Food high in fat sugar and salt w.h.o. Estimates nearly 2300000000 children and adults are overweight and more than 150000000 children a stunted for n.p.r. 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Census even a relatively small undercount could cause a stir can saw billions of federal dollars coming up on issues that matter a discussion on what groups in the state are doing to ensure the most accurate count possible that's Tuesday night 7 till 8 issues that banner a project of the central Arkansas library system a League of Women Voters and k u a r 89 point one. This is one a I'm Joshua Johnson in Washington hosting this program has been an unforgettable experience but before I move on to my next adventure we wanted to look back on some of my favorite shows one a is all about the national conversation that means talking and listening to people from across the political spectrum every year we've gone to see Pac the Conservative Political Action Conference We're going again next year but we wanted to look back at our trip to see Pac from last year this program aired right after Michael Steele who was the 1st black man to be the chair of the Republican National Committee attended the conference he was not expecting to make headlines but then even Walters who's a spokesman for the group that produced a c Pac said this from the conferences Mainstage Walters was reminiscing about the time right after Barack Obama was elected president we were somewhat lost as a. As a group we had just elected the 1st African-American president and that was a big deal. And that was killed that we got over and it was something that we were all proud of and we weren't sure what to do. And a little bit of cynicism what do we do this is a terrible thing we elected my seal to be the artist and sure this is a black eye this is the wrong thing to do Michael Steele was among the black conservatives who were outraged. At those comments and who said that they were proof that the Republican Party still struggles with race the conversation you're about to hear initially aired right after Walters made those comments back in early 2018 Our guests include Jill Upson a former West Virginia State Delegate she was also the 1st black Republican woman elected to West Virginia's house of delegates but she was defeated by a Democrat in last year's primaries Leah Wright rigor who's a professor at Harvard and the author of the loneliness of the black Republican and Caldwell who's a Republican strategist and a Fox News analyst let's start with some of the reaction to Ian Walters his comments Michael Steele hosts a show on Sirius x.m. Satellite radio on Saturday he spoke with match Lapp who is the chairman of the American Conservative Union the group that produced the c Pac Mr slap seem to defend the substance if not the actual words of Mr Walsh as a mulch as his comments Mr Steele is a guest on the program rather Let's listen to that exchange the 1st voice you'll hear is match lap of the American Conservative Union he feels that there are criticisms of how you were chairman that can you accept that fact could be no coming out and not a raise you know I get all due respect come at me What the hell is that my race have to do with any of that at the end of the day what does the color of my skin have to do with anything you just said those are Michael Steele and match laps speaking on Sirius x.m. Satellite radio before I work our way around the penalty get your reactions to all of this we should note that we invited in Walters or anyone else with the pack of the American Conservative Union to come on board today we were told they could not make it because of scheduling conflicts Michael Steele was also invited we did not hear back but all of those offers still stand General Caldwell let me start with you would you make of all this I thought it was very unfortunate and perpetuates a narrative with the new g.o.p. That generally speaking the Republican Party doesn't understand race in America and I know that's not true for. All of work with many members of the Republican Party I know that there are some that are very sensitive or put it in a way this closely relevant now very walk when it comes to issues of race however there are some who still don't get it and I felt a bit. Disappointed with some of the responses of her post the comment being made I know in apologize and he spoke with the former Chairman Steele about this issue but I was a fairly disappointed with the with the response of hey you've been critical of President Trump So this is almost to be expected if I may paraphrase so that Carol rhetoric I think is fairly disappointing and I know this is something that really should be a larger conversation on race and politics in general which is something that we continue to discuss especially with President Trump in office is something that comes up on a regular consistent basis and personally want to reason why I am a black Republican which is one of the toughest things to do and I know our professor can tell us about the loneliness of the black Republican as I've lived it for many years and. This is a conversation that needed to be had and is one that should be accepted or at least listened to with some open ears and eyes I mean that's how I feel about it at this point before I come to you Professor delegate Upson What do you think of all this well I'm really disappointed in hearing a person of color in Walters make comments like this Michael Steele is he's educated he's talented he's accomplished and to say here's someone just outright say that he was only hired because he's a black guy and it's just so disappointing in that kind of language it needs to be strongly condemned I think match lab was wrong to come out and try to defend the comments of Ian Walters you know you. He may like him as an individual but those comments were completely inappropriate and they should be condemned Professor rigger What is your thought on this particularly given that the Republican Party has had a very checkered history to say the least in terms of its dealings with African-Americans particularly in a contemporary sense where do you think this latest controversy rates in terms of the r. And C's ongoing issues with race so the interesting thing about about your comment is that it opens up this really complicated and messy can of worms and to John's point it is something that the party has had to deal with for a very long time but has largely avoided dealing with so here we are again trying to make sense of this you know of some of the statement you know the interest I think that one of the interesting things about this is that when when Mike Steele is 1st initially elected you hear not just gossip and rumors that you know they just wanted their own version of you know they wanted a conservative version of Barack Obama but you hear people out right say that on both the left and the right and so I think what this does is it brings us back to this moment where people are really agonizing over and really talking over and discussing what race and what the race of a figure like Michael Steele means in this moment the one other thing I'll say with with match up is that his comments introduce I think a dangerous dangerous equivocation which is to say that he is essentially saying that if it's fair game to bring up someone's race if you disagree with Trump and so that and you know kudos to Michael Steele for pushing back on and saying absolutely not this is about race this is a solo about race this is not about where I stand on Donald Trump because otherwise that opens you know that's a slippery a very very slippery slope so I think. Ultimately what this does is it brings us back to this larger and longer history of contention between African-Americans in the Republican Party over issues of race we are speaking to Harvard professor Leo Wright rigueur West Virginia State Delegate Jill Upson and Republican strategist John o. Caldwell also a Fox News political analyst about the comments made regarding Michael Steele's tenure as the chairman of the Republican Party a number of you have been commenting on in Walter's his remarks and kind of playing devil's advocate in a way David who's here in Washington writes No rational person believes the r. And c. Hired Michael Steele simply because of his race opponents of affirmative action often claim this but Republicans didn't go out on the street and find someone black Steele had qualifications including long time Party activism and service as Maryland's lieutenant governor but it's also foolish to think Steele's race had nothing to do with his hiring how better to show the party welcomes people of color to deny race is the sole criteria on it rarely is doesn't make it completely irrelevant to this or other jobs and Rick emailed although it took 6 times to elect Steele to head the r. And c. Meaning 6 ballot cycles the only reason they elected him was in response to the election of President Obama after the speaker at c Pac stated Steele was r. And c. Chair because he was black no one in the Republican leadership spoke out to support Steele General Caldwell what about that is it possible that absent Barack Obama the 1st biracial black president the r. And c. Might never have had a black chairman. Well I don't think that's something any of us can speak to honestly speaking. We just saw Ok cause James take over the Heritage Foundation and I believe she is the 1st woman and 1st person of color to leave the organization and President Obama is no longer the president of these here United States so that's not something I think that we can really dove into what we can say is really speaking Ian's comments when he said it was a terrible decision and I think to some degree being critical of his tenure as r. And c. Chair which I found to be fairly odd because I recall back in 2008 where a Republican member of Congress said that the Republican brand was dog food because there was such a shellacking of the g.o.p. During a time when President Obama ran for office and as you know everything flipped there was a supermajority in the Senate a majority in the House and Democrats would lead to big sickly be able to do whatever they want to do especially after you know it's a disappointing year with George w. Bush but let's talk about what the are as he chairman did and 2010 midterms brought g.o.p. Controlled the House with a $63.00 c. Pickup plus 6 seats in the Senate and a $600.00 plus. Seat pick up in state legislatures across the country so just to criticize him on his tenure of r. And c. Chair when he legitimately was the head of the organization put Republicans back in the majority which continue to be in the majority today and still lead in a number of state legislatures across the country his Again I think intellectually dishonest so at this point you wonder why would somebody make a statement like that when you look at the results the ramifications of the actions of Michael Steele and you see that they were fairly positive for Republicans hold that thought right we got it we're going to break us I'm so sorry to interrupt you Jennifer we've got to hit a brick. Continue this conversation in just a moment with John o. Caldwell Leah Wright rigor and chill of sin as we go to break here's a song performed by Ian Walters the guy who made that comment about Michael Steele turns out he also sings blues music including the song with an apropos lyric don't ever drive a stranger from your door I'm Joshua Johnson You're listening to one a from w. Am you and n.p.r. . Has. 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This is one a I'm Joshua Johnson We're listening back to some of my favorite conversations from my time hosting this program and today that includes this discussion of what it means to be black and Republican it aired right after a visit to see Pac the Conservative Political Action Conference back in 20 teen Our guests are Jill Upson who's a former state delegate in West Virginia and the 1st black woman elected to the West Virginia House of Delegates as a Republican leader right rigor a professor at Harvard and the author of the loneliness of the black Republican and Fox News analyst and Republican strategist John Caldwell Karisma tweeted hopefully you talk about race and the Democratic Party as well since their track record isn't any better good point conversation for another day but good point the Ana wrote to us about Michael Steele's response fussy on a wrote on our Facebook page he should keep speaking out the Republicans are becoming more and more radical and if centrists don't have a place in the party than they need to speak up Andy who's here in Washington writes I was never impressed with Michael Steele and now cannot even some in the slightest pity as he learns the ugly truth about the Republican Party I can only shake my head in disgust at people of color women or gays who join that reprehensible lot completely blind to reality they weakly naive Li and foolishly believe that the Republican Party is open and welcoming truth is they will eat you 1st and if you don't realize this by now Shame on you. Professor Or what about that is should Michael Steele have known that this was coming I mean I have to admit when I heard his reaction I understand his anger completely but shock really. I don't necessarily know that shock is how I would describe it maybe shocked that it was done in such a such a public place or such a public platform although even the idea that it would be shocking that it happened at Sea-Tac particularly in light of the fact that that sea pack never tracks very many black people let alone black Republicans but I don't know if I'd characterize his reaction as shock instead I think what we saw was a very careful response carefully controlled response as he tried to figure out what he could say publicly about how he felt in his reaction to this and a lot of ways I think Michael Steele has come to expect this or understand this I mean immediately afterwards he mentioned several times that he hadn't been invited to the seat pack Republican black Republican trailblazer Award and was very upset about that but also said it had a manners as though he understood what was happening but I also think one of the things that this reveals is that for black Republicans who are critical of the party and who have long been critical of the party they are caught between a rock and a hard place because as long as they remain Republicans there's no material benefit to them speaking out or lashing out or criticizing the party because they don't get anything in return from say the left or from the Democrats and they don't get anything in return from their own party the Republican Party and so this is something I think you've. Seen increasingly as people wrestle with so you see a lot of private conversations the public conversations the tone of those conversations are often looked different however the lips and I'd love to hear your response to one of your constituents who wrote in Gary is listening in Charles Town West Virginia which is part of your district and Gary writes The overt racism of the Republican Party is no longer just the elephant in the room it is Godzilla in the room. It is so bad that your visit to see Pat concerned me at the very least I expected you meaning me to be called The n word or uppity That's how bad it is and I'm an old white guy who was clueless about police mistreatment of blacks until videos started to surface delicate ups and before you respond I should say we were treated extremely well at sea pack Nobody called me The n word meaning everybody left unscathed and a lot of people said they were very happy to see that n.p.r. Was there some people were kind of wondering why we were there but we were treated extremely well and with kid gloves throughout Having said that the delegate ups and what do you think of Kerry's comment Well you know there in lies the conundrum I think because Democrats have just been so strong and coming I got coming out against Republicans and calling them racist for so long that when you do have an instance of actual racism that a lot of Republicans they they don't take it quite as seriously because they hear this on a daily basis and so that comment that you just read to me you know just just proves that point to call an entire party racist a party that was begun to abolish slavery slavery took all that entire party racist to me it's ridiculous this is a problem with even Walters this is a problem with match slap you know I'm a conservative I'm not leaving my party I think you know the people with the issues of race are the ones who need to leave the party and I hear you tell us that I do want you to finish the thought but I I want to make sure we're clear that this is not these issues of race with the Republican Party are not isolated I mean this was a problem with Roy Moore and this is a problem historically with strong Thurmond and Jesse Helms and this is a problem with Donald Trump saying there were good people on both sides of the Charlottesville protest I mean this is like a Last year problem not a last century. The problem well I see things differently because I can base it on my own experience since I joined the Republican Party in my early thirty's I have been welcomed warmly. A lot of the the hatred that I receive is actually from Democrats both black and white saying you know why would you be a Republican when I'm a Republican because I believe in the Republican platform and so if there are individuals who I disagree with individuals who make racist and inappropriate comments that does not change the Republican platform therefore I am not going to leave the Republican Party based on individual personalities or individual comments I can call those comments out and I will call those comments out but let's not you know paint the entire party as a racist party based on the actions of a few and I am a representative in West Virginia and I have to tell you we have a statue of Senator Senator Robert Byrd in our state capitol Senator Robert Byrd a former Ku Klux Klansman who you know is just reviewed in this state and so you know people are out you know tearing down statues and you know no one that's an either that we have a former Klansman standing in our state capitol because he happens to be a Democrat so I just say if we were you know going to call out racism let's call it out on both sides of the aisle we asked you for some of your experiences as black conservatives with the Republican Party why you joined the party perhaps why you stay or even why you left Here's one story that came to our inbox Iranian's Chris say I'm a 46 year old black Republican I've been a Republican so I was registered to vote at 18 but lately it is that the Republican Party has been very outspoken. Not supporting black people in our growth and encouraging statement like the one they're made. Michael Steele and. That to me was the nail in the coffin definitely changing my party affiliation I'm actually anti republican party so they change their way Chrissy appreciate you sharing your story thanks very much for calling in Laurie is listening from Athens Vermont and Lori writes I am not black nor Republican nor conservative but what I want to ask your guests is are they Republicans or are they conservatives if the Republican Party has abandoned people of color and they have under Trump and true conservatives look at the budget is there still a place for them as conservatives Jonah what do you think. I was one I am a Republican I am also a conservative but interesting when no one point those kind of stuck with me through this conversation it was something and Lee had just mentioned about there not being any benefit to black Republicans who choose to kind of speak up on these issues in Truthfully speaking what I've noticed is I get it from all sides as Democrats Republicans black white and indifferent and truthfully speaking as we've been talking about these issues. And they give you kind of a just a brief background I'm a South Side Chicago guy I was born or raised on the Southside of Chicago there's nobody in my family that really no one close in my family that's Republican I had to deal with things that only white Republican and only listen and read about so I understand that dichotomy very well but I also recognize I come from a community where as my mom was addicted to crack cocaine and I lived in poverty for a great deal of time and I chose to become a Republican because I believe in the bow use a traditional family values which after all and more I'm not sure if it left or not and also in terms of business and taxation those those counties chooses what Which What appealed me to the parties so when these issues come up and anyone else is something and I feel that we must speak up. That's the reason why we're here we're not here to say oh no the Republicans you know Republicans all races and I and I respect and know that overwhelmingly Republicans voted g.o.p. This is not a racist party I know that a lot of issues that occur in the Republican Party occur in a Democratic Party and sometimes even worse on the other side so with that being the case I recognize what it is John are you talking about issues are almost areason that occur in the Democratic Party I want to make sure we're not making a fair game so again I want to make sure we're not making a false equivalency are you talking about issues of race to this extent that also occur in the Democratic Party because I think you know actually the absolute There absolutely is let's talk about even hiring how the there's a it should be more diversity we're talking about Democrats but if you look in a Senate you look in Congress the senior level positions that have been given and terms of black African-Americans have gone to Republicans look at Speaker Ryan's the chief of staff it was African-American you look at Tim Scott Stevens that was an African-American woman we can talk about a number of pay in equality you know you see what Democrats mention these issues as way which issues but they do a lot of talking and not a lot of action I'm not sure that's credible I mean if you look at for example Supreme Court we can use only so much you know or mention a factual thing will not result actually hold on a 2nd I mean Sonia Sotomayor was appointed to the Supreme Court under Barack Obama Neal gorse which was a point under Donald Trump nothing wrong with their points per se but if you look at the cabinet if you look at the top leadership of the country I mean Republicans may be hiring more black staffers Democrats created a black presidency so I don't think that's apples and oranges I don't think it's apples and I don't and I'm a I'm a push back on that a little bit because you say Democrats created a black presidency when we know if we look at the poll numbers there were Republicans and independents that voted for President Obama so this wasn't just a Democrat base election and Republicans. A number of Republicans actually voted for Obama because the George Bush years the last term was disaster right now I'm going to have to push back about I'll grant you that I'm Joshua Johnson You're listening to one day wonder Professor rigger affects the transition to a tweet from another one of our listeners Irvin who wrote I don't think it's necessary for the g.o.p. To address race within its ranks the g.o.p. Proved in the 2016 election that it can dominate through the majority support of Caucasians Blome Professor what do you think so this is actually been a calculation that Republican strategists have been making since you know since the 1930 s. Do we actually need black in later on do we need Latino voters and I think this is you know something that again in 2016 they made a very calculated decision that they only needed a certain percentage of black voters in order to win the election and I believe that number was roughly 6 percent right they knew that they could win with 6 percent and so this is why you hear at the end of the campaign several interviews with you know Trump staffers saying our goal is not to encourage turnout amongst black voters but instead to depress turnout and I want to be clear depress is very different from suppressed oppressed means encourage people not to vote right to just stay home the other thing just to point out here just to add some clarification to our discussion. The Democratic Party does have its own issues with race absolutely but that's not what's triggering Republicans problems with race and we can't put that on Democrats because it ignores the actual agency in the beliefs of people at the bottom the people of actual voters so when we talk about how safe are this the relationship between race and the Republican Party what we're actually talking about is how actual black voters feel about the Republican Party and increasingly what we're seeing is that African-Americans say over and over again. That the Republican Party doesn't have their interests in mind and then point to either specific rhetoric specific examples or specific policies or all 3 and all of the above in order to make that argument and I'm just go end here by saying give you guys a figure when polled black Republicans also exhibit shocking levels that also say that they believe their own party doesn't compare doesn't care about their issues or their communities over 60 percent of black Republicans so this tells that this is actually a problem that the Republican Party has to figure out with black voters but in the case of you know what the caller just said or that tweet or maybe this is something that they just don't want to consider and they feel like they don't have to consider and more time is limited but delegates and I want to come back to something that you kind of touched on a little bit earlier which is the historical legacy of the g.o.p. In terms of its its views after reconstruction and so forth that was something that came up from another one of our listeners who talked about his political background here's what he left in our inbox going that you have been a Republican now for 4 years. And that's probably one of the biggest reasons that came in the. Treatment of black people and it's saying to me like. Looking back in history that the k.k.k. And the good things of that nature was pretty much 99 percent Democrat Jeff thanks for calling in and just historically speaking is is correct some of our listeners have a different view life in spoons tweeted your guest referring to you delegate ups and your guest sounds incredibly naive racism within the g.o.p. Is systemic just because it was founded as a party for abolishing slavery doesn't mean it's stayed in the same spirit for over a century and man son added on Twitter your representative from West Virginia seems to conveniently be forgetting that the rip. Look ins and Democrats flipped sides last century mostly based on race Lincoln today would surely be a Democrat I know your time is short delicate Upson but I wonder how you are navigating this going forward Republicans and Democrats are not equivalent parties so it's not like he was a conservative to just say oh large to be a Democrat now like the platforms are different but this legacy thing about slavery it's an old argument especially in the face of say independents who look at what President Trump said this past summer how do you walk that line going forward. Well I believe what the what the person who sent you the message that's just a matter of opinion I don't believe that the party's made a switch that suddenly you know after a 100 years of fighting for equality for black people that all of the Democrats decided that they were going to be Republican and all the Republicans decided that they were going to be Democrat I don't see any evidence of that that's number one number 21 point that keeps getting lost over this whole discussion is that all of the reporting about those comments that were made at Sea-Tac Well when that happened there was an audible gasp it's reported in the audience so the fact that people were shocked and mortified by that statement just proves that most conservatives don't subscribe to that type of thinking that most conservatives really are not racist and that was Jill Upson a former West Virginia State Delegate she was the 1st black Republican woman elected to that States House of Delegates but was defeated by a Democrat in last year's primary Harvard professor leader right rigor the author of the loneliness of the black Republican and Republican strategist and Fox News analyst called well this conversation originally aired back in early 2018 right after c Pac the Conservative Political Action Conference Just ahead we'll share another interview from our trip to see Pac We'll speak to Kay Coles James who is the 1st black woman to lead the Heritage Foundation stay close. One night this spring a cyber security researcher stumbled upon a data said it was from facial recognition cameras in Beijing and as we started digging deeper into realized that people were effectively being watched we had latitude longitude. I didn't the Kurds mass surveillance became part of the fabric of life in China this afternoon on All Things Considered from n.p.r. News. The next fresh air comic actor and writer Wanda Sykes talks about doing comedy during the Obama era and the Trump era sex has a lot of political material as well as comedy about being an African-American lesbian married to a white woman her comedy special not normal is streaming on Netflix joining us this morning at 1139 point one k. U.a.r. . You know you look at the bad guy. You sound like the bad guy even appears you've done the bad guy thing but really there's been a terrible horrible day. For. This Saturday afternoon at 2 and Tuesday night at 989 point one k. U.a.r. . Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from Fidelity wealth management where advisors work with their clients to develop flexible investment strategies that can evolve as their needs change learn more at fidelity dot com slash wealth fidelity brokerage services l.l.c. From the Union of Concerned Scientists putting rigorous independent science to work for a healthy planet and a safer world more if you c.s. USA dot org And from the listeners who support this n.p.r. Station. Earlier in our program we heard Republican strategist Ciano Caldwell mention Kay Coles James She's the 1st black woman to lead the Heritage Foundation that is a large powerful conservative think tank based here in d.c. James has worked for a number of Republican presidential administrations and for Virginia's former Governor George Allen we spoke to her on the floor of c. Pac the Conservative Political Action Conference back in 2018 cakehole James welcome to what a well thank you it's my pleasure to be here to talk about your role as leader of the Heritage Foundation back when you got the job last year what were some of the things you looked at where you said we need to keep doing this we need to change doing this well quite frankly I believe that we have a great message but we need to take that message to some communities in some sectors of America that maybe haven't heard it before I truly believe that there's an entire cadre of people out there who are conservatives but just don't know it and so I think that means going out and taking our message to some communities and making our case to millennialists to women they are the ones that we must convince you give me an example of this Evangel say you were talking to an audience of millennia old women of color in San Francisco Well yes let's just go right is go there right there this is go right there give me an example of something that you would like them to think through maybe for the 1st time sure of that if they really hurt you if they really gave you a shot you might begin to win them over in some ways well sure 1st of all I would assure them that contrary to what they might think we both want the exact same thing and I say to my African-American brothers and sisters you can love black people more than I do defy you to say you love black folks more than that do. I love being black all day long so you can't pull that card you can't say that I'm not a feminist because I am. And dearly believe in the rights of women and and you know so you can't play that card you you can't say that you care more about the poor in this country because I care about the poor I was born to a welfare mom an alcoholic dad grew up in the early years in the slums of Portsmouth Virginia public housing all of it you try to tell me you care more about poor people than I do I don't think so so once we get that out of the way and we stop calling each other's names. What we have to come together and see is I may have the same desired outcomes of as you but I have some very different ways of getting there and I think that what we are experiencing in our country today is the unintended consequences of their misguided compassion what I mean by misguided compassion let's just take an issue let's take welfare policy I think that there were some folks who sat down at a table and said Oh my word we've got to help the poor people in this country let's come up with some policy that's really going to do that let's design some programs that are going to you know really lift people up empower them and 30 years later after those programs have been in place there miss their they were compassionate they wanted to help but their misguided compassion has wreaked havoc on poor neighborhoods and poor communities in this country the data is. It's very real it's it's there we've got to deal with it we must face it so it sounds like what you're saying is that your argument is not. You know shame on you for for believing what you believe it's we believe the same thing but I can prove that your method doesn't work and we need something else and if you are bold enough. If you genuinely care enough and this is one of the reasons I love policy and not politics get politics out of it. And if we remove the politics then can we just say this is the right answer. I am courageous enough bold enough to say you know this will work and I will do it if I have to take on the teachers' unions in order to provide better education for kids and close the failure factories down in our communities then back Ali I'll do it where did your conservatism come from where you were raised in a conservative household you know a tomato and laid a man and women my definition of a black conservative is somebody who had the audacity to believe what their grandmother taught him. And if you look at the things that we were taught as kids I don't think my parents I don't I was raised by a man an aunt and uncle they would not have call themselves conservatives so when you say where you were raised in a conservative household know I was raised in a typical black household where I was told You gotta work to earn your keep where you were told taught a work ethic where you were to where we really believe that a mom was a terrible thing to waste and we were taught about education we were taught about charity beginning at home we were taught that that that welfare was for those individuals who might need a helping hand for short period of time it was not a lifestyle so I chose odd. Dj's I didn't know I was a conservative until a reporter told me I was I think it's interesting how your read of the same values that lead some African-Americans to be more progressive and democratic are the values that lead you to be conservative I won't guess that your party affiliation but to be what we would describe as more conservative I think the majority of people I talk to in the black community are as a conservative as I am but they have issues with the Republican Party which is a totally different thing. And I started out in the Democrat party I ventured I became a Republican but I've always always been a conservative and let me just say I'm distrustful of both parties and anybody who is a truly good American should be we shouldn't be beholding to any party we should be whole beholding to values and ideas and principles that work let me follow you on that because I think it's interesting and I wish we talked about this more in general politically I don't think many people consciously realize that most Americans are neither Democrats nor Republicans right to plurality of the American electorate for decades and now at times the majority is intending this for members of 3rd parties but primarily independent voters so it seems like part of what I imagine part of what you're trying to capitalize on at the Heritage Foundation is that group in the middle that feels like well no one's really talking to me but I know what I think I just don't know what to do with that I know I don't disagree with you at all but I think what I find is when I go out and talk about ideas talk about policy talk about things that I believe in I can relate to the majority of the people that are out there and that's what the release of that Donald Trump just come found that everybody where did that come from I mean people were just what he tapped into something that folks are still scratching their. Heads over. And I think both parties you know he's been both right right right now I mean both parties but a sit up and take notice one of the big education policy issues particularly people who are crazy about kids I think we're feeling right now is the students out of Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School in Parklane Florida they have protested in the state capital of Tallahassee they're planning a protest in late March calling for new gun laws I wonder what your take is a on their activism and b. On the policy solutions there seems to be movement on whether or not the age for buying assault weapons should change on whether the laws around certain kinds of magazines or books stock should change so 2 things what about the students in their activism and what about policy and ways forward Well 1st of all I am so proud of them so incredibly proud of them this country was built on activism and when our founders formed this country they said that the only way our American democracy will work is if citizens are informed and engaged so every time I see a young person engaged I'm excited about that so one of the things that I have asked our folks within the building at the Heritage Foundation to do is let's encourage them to be engaged let's help them be informed one of the sad things that I see is as they take to the microphones and you know it's easy to engage a crowd and and and this is a very emotional time and I understand that you know you've lost friends you've you've you've lost family members of course this is an emotional time and we should allow them to feel that emotion and go through that that grieving process but in the midst of all of that. Don't want to see them. Not using real data real information and making informed decisions so what I want the Heritage Foundation to do as an example at this point in time is let's get the data together we're not going we're not going to write the policy that the legislation we're not going to be involved you know in terms of we are a policy think tank we don't promote or endorse certain legislation but we endorse and promote certain policies what kinds of do I with one of a good policy Well let's get the data the research and I am Alice's and get it together 1st of all I can tell you one of the things that disturbs me more than anything is is and there's not really a whole lot we can do about this but every time we have a school shooting in the country gets mobilized I want them to get mobilized after a weekend in Chicago when 10 people are shot I want them to get mobilized when people are gunned down the in the neighborhoods in Detroit what about the kid who may have lost his life in my hometown of Richmond So are there only certain elements in this country that we care about I made so I think we are in a culture of violence in this country and I don't want to see these kids or anyone else being manipulated by the anti gun people to just use them oh here's a tremendous opportunity to take on the anti-gun issue in our country I'm Joshua Johnson You're listening to one a I think part of the element that makes the response so different particularly in the minds of the kids at stoma Douglass is the n.r.a. And that that is such a hot political button both because of its policies and its outspokenness and its support of Republican in concert. Of candidates of support of c Pac you know I just think it's an easy thing it's an easy target if you will but if you really want to do something about violence in schools we've got to have a macho Brot or conversation and it's much harder band just simply taking a pot shot at the n.r.a. And I don't think people want to do the hard work do we really want to have conversations about mental illness do we really want to understand that if you look at all of the school shooters in the last few years at the absent father and the home and what role that may have had another big issue that came up a lot in President Trump's 1st year was the issue of race particularly his response to the violence in Charlottesville noting that there were good people on both sides of at protests there have been the protests where n.f.l. Players have a meal during the performing of the national anthem I think for a lot of people of color the Republican Party in specific and conservative politics in general does it feel like a legitimate venue to improve race relations in this country granted a number of conservatives would say that the Obama presidency worse a graceful ations of this country so it may be just a matter of perspective but I know I think is that there's enough blame to go all around I don't think there's enough conversation about race I think there's a lot of education that needs to be done and in my personal experience it has very little to do with party I have had to educate some fairly prominent progressive Democrats about race and those issues I think when you are an African-American who has traveled in some of those circles that I've had the privilege of traveling in we recognize how complex this issue is and how much work there is still to be done. Where do we start with that if we're going to have that conversation the really hard conversation where do you think that conservative thinkers like yourself might be able to gain a toehold and maybe drive the conversation in a new direction Well you know I think it's amazing that those conversations can happen at the Heritage Foundation those conversations can happen in the board rooms where I've had the privilege of being I think that those of us who are individuals who have a platform and who have experienced race and racism in this country have a responsibility to be patient enough to walk some folks through a conversation every now and then I get a little frustrated and say Do I have to have this conversation again and the answer is yes I do I wonder about your presence in conservative politics and served policy as a black woman and I remember hearing Michael Steele the former chair of the Republican National Committee years ago who once talked about how he responds to people when they're like Why are you wasting your time with these Republicans they don't care about black people you're only one in the room why do you waste your time with him and his answer was basically because when I'm in the room they have to deal with me it's easy to ignore me when I'm not in the room or brother Michael always nails it they love him you know that is so true I always tell the story of being an assistant secretary at the u.s. Department of Health and Human Services in a Republican administration and a friend called and said My mother has an issue with her Social Security can you help her and I said Gwendolen King who was the commissioner of Social Services at the time a fabulous African-American female had an office that was a couple of doors down from mine and I said I'm going to help you but you're going to have to listen to a lecture 1st what you need to understand is that the reason your mother's. Problem is going to be solved is because there is something called a black Republican who's in the room. So I think what's important for those of us who have these opportunities is to recognize why we're in the room. And to be that voice when in the room Kay calls James the president of the Heritage Foundation restraints thanks so much for talking to us thank you that was our conversation with Kay Coles James who's the president of the Heritage Foundation She is the 1st black woman to run that conservative think tank this year was originally produced by Daniel Knight edited for rebroadcast by page birth you can learn more about our team at the one a dot org this program comes to you from w. Am you part of American University in Washington distributed by n.p.r. Until we meet again I'm Joshua Johnson thanks for listening this is one. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from Total Wine and more where in-store teams can recommend a bottle of wine spirit or beer for any occasion shoppers can explore more than 8000 wines 2500 beers and 3000 spirits more it Total Wine dot com and from c 3 died a i c 3 dot AI's software enables organizations to use artificial intelligence at enterprise scale solving previously unsolvable business problems learn more at c 3 . Amazon's in-house slogan is work hard have fun at this time of year at shipping facilities or fulfillment centers or working at breakneck speed but recent reports show Amazon's obsession with speed has made its warehouses unduly dangerous how much care is being shown to those working hard for our convenience next time on what day. Hi I'm Jonathan learning from a lose wine and liquor crowd supporters of public radio were excited to be a part of the 4th block beer bourbon in Burgundy on Saturday January 11th I invite Philadelphia I'm Terry Gross. Today. Former Fox News host. In the new film about the women who came forward at Fox News to accuse c.e.o. Of sexual harassment. Perfectly she speaks in this very deep I actually don't have a very deep and so that was a very difficult thing to kind of get she goes actually my vocal cords so much that I couldn't speak for 3 weeks there and became a producer of bombshell before agreeing to star in it talk about how at the start of her career she dealt with a director when he behaved in appropriately at what was supposed to be an audition and we'll also talk about growing up in apartheid South Africa. Coming up on. News. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Janine Herbst a new n.p.r. P.b.s. News Hour poll shows Americans opinions on President Trump and impeachment remain unchanged N.P.R.'s Domanick Oman to narrow has more despite weeks of public hearings on impeachment American public opinion remains where it's been divided and partisan 48 percent of Americans oppose the impeachment of President Trump while 47 percent approve of it that is statistically unchanged from a month ago the last time the question was asked me while president trumps approval rating is 42 percent pretty much exactly where it's been for the entirety of his presidency and 91 percent of Republicans approve of the job he's doing so the likelihood is this week the House led by Democrats will impeach the president and he will maintain if not solidify the support of his base to medical Monson are n.p.r. News Washington the future of Boeing 737 Max aircraft will be central today when Boeing's board of directors meets in Chicago N.P.R.'s David Schaper says the company is considering whether to reduce production of the airplane which has been grounded following deadly crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia Well we is still producing for.

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