and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers look you. thank you. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ please welcome tom perez back to the program. earlier this year, elected chair of the democratic national committee, after serving as labor secretary in the obama administration. he joins us to night from where else, washington. mr. chairman, good to have you on the program, sir? >> tavis, great to be with you and your viewers. >> good to see you. let me start with news made by democratic colleagues before i come to your work inside the dnc. looks like the democrats on the hill. chuck schumer and senate and nancy pelosi in the house released their new slogan. the slogan is, drum roll, please, a better deal, better skills, better jobs, better wages. i saw sonline. sound look a papa john's commercial. better ingredients, better pizza. what do you make of the slogan. better deal. belter jo better jobs, better wages. >> the democratic party fought for a better future for every boat, fighting during the social security debate in the 30s. the medicare medicaid debate of the 60s. during the debate on affordable care act under president obama. always fighting for a better future for everyone. not just a few at the top. that's what senator schumer and, nancy pelosi and all democrats are talking about. what we stand for. we are fighting for you. we want to make sure that health care is right for all not a privilege for a few. we want to make sure you have a good job that pays a middle-class wage. dignity of work is about being able to retire with dignity. about being able to work a 40 hour week and go and watch your kids, at the, at the, at the school play. or, or be part of their lives. and, and it has gotten so much harder. income inequality, defining issue of our time right now. and the democratic party is fighting, every single day, to make sure we build a better future for people by making sure they have better jobs, by making sure that they have health care, by making sure we have all of those basic foundational elements of a good middle-class life. >> with all due respect to chuck schumer and nancy pelosi, for those who say, that the new message only matters to some degree. if you uh got the same old messengers, touting the message you will not get very far. to those who say not just a new message needed but new messengers you say what? >> oh, we have, messengers up and down the party, who have been, fighting for fairness. whether it is nancy pelosi or chuck schumer or whether it's our most recently elected senators. caramela harris, tammy duckworth. three women of color who got elected in the last cycle to the united states senate. i will tell you, the leaders, some of the leaders empreimpres me, mayors, pete budatich, south bend, indiana, eric garcetti in los angeles. other mayors out there. i'm excite add but the future of the democratic party. i am also very sober about the fact that we have got to up our game. we have got to communicate our values. every day in every way. >> let's talk about upping our game. known you for years. friend for a lot of years. you got elected. should tell you now that i pushed you higher on my prayer list. you going to need it for the job you have in front of you. let's talk about upping the game. so you're inside the dnc, we are, told, we read every day, that you asked for resignations basically for everybody inside the building so you could start with a clean slate. we are told again, what we read every day. fund-raising fund-raising has not gone well for you early on. i could go on and on for the narrative. and let me stop and ask, you to grade yourself early on. how do you think you are doing? >> well i will let other folks grade me. making sure we build a party that is present. vibrant in every zip code. 57 state and territory strategy that we are leading with our values. i hear from a lot of people, tavis, i don't know what the democratic party stand for. i am here to till you, we stand for you. it's not just what we are fighting for, it's who we are fighting for. we are fighting for, everyday americans fighting to make end meet. fighting to make sure you have a bright future. what we have to do is, build that infrastructure of success. tavis. that is something that we need to understand. that's, this is a major infrastructure project. we have to organize 12 month is a year. we need to make sure that we have an infrastructure of voter protection because as you know, some of our first conversations wear but civil right issues. voter suppression is a staple in the republican playbook. we have got to build a voter protection, voter empowerment infrastructure here in the democratic party. we have got to make sure that that we are talking to people everywhere. and not just talking to people -- every fourth october. and the new democratic party, our mission, tavis, not to help elect the president of the united states every four years it's to help elect democrats up and down the ticket. >> sense you mention infrastructure. this is inside politic thousands, inside the beltway. i think it strategically. tell me how the infrastructure rebuilding is going inside the dnc. we all saw, heard. read, hillary clinton express her disappointment with what the dnc did or did not do for her. the comment went around the word. we know what happened with the leaked, e-mails, hacked e-mails, my friend donna brazile. we know, debbie wasserman schultz got pushed out trying to crush bernie sanders. stuff you can rebuild on the inside before winning anything on the outside. how is that coming? >> i'm excited what is happening at the dnc. i said to you and many others we have to up our game. and here is how we do it. we have got to build strong partnerships with our states. and we announced a couple week as go that we, we are, are increasing our investment in state parties by 33%. and what does that get? that gets us strong organizing capacity in states. and that enables, state and local parties to got out there and do the things that help us win elections. we are building voter protection infrastructure that will enable us to take on what the republicans are frying to do. we have a technology platform that is -- that is so important and we have got to make sure that our voter file is the best voter file in the country. and, and what gives me, as much -- optimism as anything that we can do all of these things that i am talking about communicating clearly and in every zip code. we are recruiting remarkable talent. there was already tremendous talent that we have been work with at the dnc. so many people here who, who, you know, they, they, are so dedicated. and, so creative. and in addition, we have been able to, attract, new talent. we had 400 resumes just for one -- one of our important units. our political and organizing department. over 400 resumes. people want to come here because, they understand tavis, the democratic party has to succeed. so that we can take back this country so. we have more work to do. but we are making progress. >> but to win you need money. back to my earlier point. we are told that the numbers. the fund-raising has been weak so far. how do you, what's the story on that? >> sure. you know what, tavis, we had our best low dollar quarter in our history. in the first quarter, 2017. raised over $5 million average donation was $22. listen we, are never going to match, the rnc. in 2006, when, when the democrats took over, the u.s. house, go back and look at the fund-raising numbers that year. and the republicans outraised us by over 2:1 in that session. why? because they get their money from -- exclusively wealthy people who -- who want them to implement their far right agenda. and we attract money from people across the spectrum. so, we will raise enough money to get our message out. we will raise enough money to build our infrastructure. and, and that's what we are doing now. and, i think, what's really important to watch this year, it is all about results. and i think it is important to watch virginia and new jersey. because, those are the, the two states, that, that i think, will be the bellwether stachlts in 2005. the democrats won both the races. that was the last time that happened. we are fighting to make sure it happens again. >> if you don't, by your own, admission, if you are never going to raise the money the rnc raises seems to me you better have a message and a message that resonates. and, started the show by mentioning the latest abc news, "washington post" poll. that a majority of americans think that democrats don't stand for anything. except for being oppose to donald trump. that is a damning statistic to come to terms with. so if no is not enough, if resist is not enough, what is the message going to be that is going to resonate whether you have money or not? >> sure. fighting for good jobs, for everyone, everywhere. dr. king once said the best civil rights is a good job. that's what we have been fighting for. good jobs. that create pathways to the middle-class. create -- retirement security. that, the dig knnity of work. roof over your head. health care for you and your family. retirement security. ability to take a week off when your kid get to college if they decide to go to college it is affordable to them. these are the issues, tavis, we have always been fighting for. been fighting for, for basic dignity. for people across america. we believe that no one who works a full time job should have to live in poverty. we believe that health care is a right for all. not a privilege for a few. we believe that education is the great equalizer. and that the secretary of education, belief in public education and understand for instance what the individuals with disabilities and education act actually is. and, and those are the, the basics, of how we build a vibrant economy. and, you know, we have been the party that has the been working for the many. they have been the party that's working for the few. and we allowed donald trump to hijack our economic message in the 2016 cycle. weaned a and we are take that back. this party has been the party that's been fighting for the right to organize for union members. they have been fighting for women's rights. that's been fighting for civil rights. that understand that our immigrant heritage is, is, what has always made america great. tavis. we need to articulate those values every single day. and build an economy that works for everyone. and, build opportunity in every single zip code. that's what we are fighting for and stand for >> we could have a conversation. how it is democrats allowed donald trump to hijack their own economic message. out of time for that tonight. get to that next time. tom perez, great to have you on. all the best to you. >> tavis, always a pleasure to be with you. >> thank you, my friend. awe calling up. the relationship between jfk and mlk. stay with us. ♪ ♪ >> welcome steven levingston, his book "kennedy and king, the president, the pastor and the battle over civil rights." in it he explores the relationship bewant it to atwee icons. thank you for writing it. >> thank you for reading it. thank you for having me. >> glad to have you on. from your research. we learned that king and kennedy, first meet, have sort of an awkward first, first dance. >> well, yeah, they had an awkward first dance. because they're two very different characters. as we know, kennedy is a -- sort of a guy who loves witty banter, loves to kind of joke around, have a good time. he comes from a, a white boston irish family. and, king, comes from quite a different background. as we know. and, the two of them when they got together, their characters sort of clashed in a way because king was a little bit contained, restricted, sort of restricted himself, and kennedy sort of wanted something more from him. kennedy wanted him to -- basically, come out in favor of him. for the election. which king doesn't do. and didn't do. >> uh-huh. how did jfk take that personally? >> not well i think. he was expecting as the kennedys think they can get pretty much what they wanted. and they needed a strong black voice on their side. and king was the one that he wanted to go after. because he was having trouble with, with -- rounding up -- black votes. as the election was nearing in 1960. and, he was hearing a lot of -- criticisms, from one of the leading black civil rights advocates and, and baseball hero, jackie robinson, writing and saying many things about kennedy's civil rights record that were true and that did not put him in a good light. >> why did kennedy -- don't laugh at the question, i can hear the laugher already -- why did kennedy think he was entitled to get the black vote at that point given his invisible record on civil rights, nonexistent record you want dr. king's endorsement for what, you haven't done nothing. >> a little bit of hubris really. he wasn't entitled to it. hadn't done much. he had spent a lot of time making friend with southern racists, southern governors. and trying to build a wider base for his run for the presidency. by attracting everybody he could especially the southern, southern voters in the south. including, including the -- >> yeah. >> is it your, your read, given the research, that part of reason there was this conflict to begin with is because while king is a, while kennedy, rather, is a political force to be reckoned with, martin brings a moral force to the table. and oftentimes, the moral and the political don't mesh so well together. >> right. right. that's really the core of the book i think. the book tries to look at evolution of john kennedy from, from being a, a president who really wasn't on civil rights. after 2 and a half years on the term. he gradually became, arguably say the first civil rights president because of his speech in june 1963 where he first talked about, the first president to talk about, civil rights in moral terms. and he introduced the idea that they wanted to finally do legislation to, to rid the country of segregation. but it was a very long period that it took him to get there from, from january of 1961, to june of 1963, so, what i was trying to do is find out why -- and how -- kennedy made that evolution. and the more i looked. the closer i looked. everywhere i looked. martin luther king popped up. and it was really his moral authority and his desire and ability to educate, to teach, and to guide john kennedy along a moral path to understanding that civil rights was a moral issue. and how did king do that successfully? >> well he did it by a lot of persistence. he did it by never letting up. he cemespent a lot of time writ about it. he spent a lot of time in jail. he, you know, met with kennedy several times. and -- just, just used the force of his, of his character, really, to, to awacen the conscience i think of john kennedy and make him think more about -- the -- the, problem of -- of civil right and discrimination in our country. >> why? bobby is a character in this book to some extent, obviously. even though it is about jfk and mlk. why did bobby get that so much more easily than his brother. bobby didn't start in the right place either. he had a transformation as well. seems, you can disagree with me. my read is that bobby was a better student than his brother was? >> yeah, he was a better student for sure. he was also a more passion that person. and i think that's what sort of what drove bobby. bobby is the kind of guy who wore his emotions on his sleeves. on his sleeve. and, he responded more viscerally to things two. character. that's why they worked well together. i think. john was a guy that was pretty aloof. kept to himself. didn't really tell people how he felt. bobby was the opposite. bobby really, i think was ahead of, of john kennedy. in understanding the need for empathy. understanding the need for conscience. bobby was an early person who -- in the administration, who understood that the only way to, to push forward on civil rights, was for the people at the very top, john skkennedy, bobby kennedy, to imagine what it was look to be in the shufzoes of a black person in america. he conveyed that and was influenced by martin luther k g king. >> trying to get the ear of the president. face time with the ps. convince the president of your point of view. helps to have allies in the white house. did king have any allies around jfk? >> he had allies. yeah, harris wolford, met king in the 1950s. and in montgomery. went on to become a u.s. senator. >> became a u.s. senator. but, he, he was actually a very strong civil rights advocate within the white house. but he became frustrated by how slowly kennedy was moving forward. and he left after about a year or so. to go work in, in the peace corps. so, king lost a strong advocate. which was really unfortunate. he also had sargent shriver of that family who was also a strong civil rights advocate. and was head of the civil rights division. during the campaign. and, the two of them, the two guys really helped sort of lay the ground work in a way. they were also so fervent about civil rights. they were marginalized in the white house. as kennedy was not ready to, not ready to deal with civil rights just yet. they were sort of, thought of, as pushing too hard. >> uh-huh. >> one of the more disappointing points for me -- realities about jfk was that day that he sat in the white house, watching the march on washington on television. really kept a hand off approach on this until after it was over. he saw well it had gone. then he sends out an invitation to all the negro leaders to come to the white house. we see the photos of king and everybody in the white house hanging out with the president. that was after jfk had sat this thing out. didn't say anything. do anything. wouldn't be a part of it. invites to the white house there after. what did you come to figure out about and learn about that moment and about that situation. kennedy was very, very scared. thought there would be violence. to his credit. he was concerned he didn't want the violence. that would impair the progress towards civil rights legislation. they were freeing to lay the ground work for. they put in. as you know, a massive force of, of police. efforts to make sure everything went as smoothly as it could. and john skkennedy watched the speeches, the whole event, from, from his, on the television from the white house. but he did, he did appreciate martin luther king's i have a dream speech in a very powerful way. he watched it on tv. and, and, you know, turned to the guy next to him. and was just flabbergasted at how well, king could deliver that speech and did deliver the speech. i think in a sense, kennedy real ied, he h eized he had seen a m was for all time. >> from a game who was not a bad orator. >> he may have felt a little stood up. >> let me, i could talk to you for hours about this book. i am excited you did this, and the toppi inic of this conversa. my question to you, what is the abiding lesson for lead tires day who find themselves on opposite shores? >> yeah. that's the question. that is a very good question. i think, i look at history as the story of today. basically. and this book in my mind, remind us that the issues that they were dealing with, are not gone today. we still are dealing with the issues of, empathy. conscience, moral courage, the aspect of, of john kennedy, evolving and growing while in the white house. is, fundamental to any president in the white house. all presidents who enter, don't really know what they're doing. they, nobody has done this job before. so they have to grow. they have to develop. they have to mature. that's fundamental. and -- kennedy sort of set a standard for how to do that. at least on civil rights. that scan be a model for any politician today. and for any president. at any time i think. >> on civil rights. would you say that jfk was himself a profile in courage? i think by the end he was. he began his career and actually wrote profiles in courage. almost with the wish he could be one of the men who was alk to sta -- able to stand up principle, strong opposition and show the moral courage necessary to make things progress. for most of his career that was an illusion for him. he was trying to achieve that. and i think by the end of his administration, i think he did get there. if you read profiles in courage today. the book is like kennedy almost talking to himself. urging himself forward. i want to be the kinds of guys. and in the end -- i think he did achieve it. because, you know, as we know, civil rights, civil rights progress is, is never an easy thing. never, never goes in a straight line. and he took a big step forward. >> he took a risk. >> at the top of the conversation. on everybody's summer reading list including mine. i think we owe, steven levingsson a debt for writing president and king. thank you sir for doing it. appreciate it. >> that's our show tonight. thank you for watching. as always, keep the faith. ♪ ♪ ♪ for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for mary louise parker. that's next time. see you then. good evening from los angeles. a conversation with judy collins. she's recorded more than 50 albums. "a love letter to steven song hiem" craveings and her upcoming tour with long time friend. we're glad you joined us. a conversation with judy collins in just a moment.