And my contributions to your pbs station before viewers like you, tha you, thank you. Dr. Bregman is a historian and author who argues its time to rethink the add cal idea of universal basic income. Hes assembled multiple studies and Success Stories to make his case and even convinced more than 20 cities around the globe to start a basic inkim experiment. His book is titled utopia for realists how we can build the ideal world. Im honor to have you on this program. Thanks for having me. There are three basic components, one, universal income, 15hour workweek and open borders. Lets take them in that order. Tell me and tell the audience what universal basic income is. Very simple. It is a monthly amount thats enough to pay for your basic needs, food, shelt, he educational. Its completely conditional so no one tells us what to have you doll for it or with it. So everybody gets it whether uhrich or poor, everybody gets it. Bill gates gets it but also every beggar on the street. It goes all the way back 500 years to the writer thomas moore who hinted at it. And now its seeing a huge surge in popularity worldwide. How does one set the universal basic income level . Most people say it should be on the positive vertly line so just enough to get you out of poverty but mott much more than that. Its not communism, everyone would get same amount of money, its just a floor, a platform to get you start and try something new. And it comes from government coffers. Exactly. We would pund it fungd it the same way we fund our Social Security right now. And a place like usa, that money would come from where . What line item where would that come from . Actually i see it as an investment, so theres a lot of evidence that shows if you look at poverty, the recent tud did i shows that it cost about 500 billion. So your healthcare spend, higher dropout rates and pore crime. It would cost 175 billion, 1 of gdp to completely eradicate poverty in the u. S. And thats the ideas we should be talking about. We should think in bigger terms about the challenges we have right now. For those that push back, their arguments rs what . What are they hanging their hat on. Obviously most people say if you give everyone free money theyll probably waste it or spend it on alcohol or drugs or netflix or whatever. Net flex is getting offended fwha by the way. Sorry netflix, he said that, not me. Go ahead. What most people say is dont worry about me, ill use the money well, but other people will probably waste it. So what i tried to do in the book is look at the actual evidence weve got. What has happened when we exempt with it and actually there were huge experiments in the 60s, 70s in canada in the u. S. Were that people dont stop working, healthcare costs go down, crime goes down, kids perform better in school, it works. If you think this a left wing idea, actually Richard Nixon almost implement today back in the 70s and back then everyone was in favor of it. The city ha you have convinced to try this out, what evidence is coming in from them . Well, we dont know yet. So we live right now in sort of a huge new surge of interest in basic income. Fin sland already doing a big experiment. Canada Just Announced another big experiment. There are a lot of people in Silicon Valley interested in it right now. And thats whats interesting about the idea, it moves beyond the old political dividing line between the left and right. The left will get the eradication of poverty, but theres something in it for the right as well. It will get a much smaller state in terms of paternalism. Now we have a Huge Industry of pa nernlistic bureaucrats who are trying to help the poor. Well, maybe we should give their salaries to the poor and that will work much better. You get this basic income you can do whatever you want zo but you can continue to make more money by doing other things theres no limits on it. Yeah. In that sense, its really capitalistic. I mean capitalism is all about taking risksz, right. You can do anything. You could start a new business. You get this annually. If its 27,000, you get that every year. Yeah. And actually theres the one example weve got of a small basic income in action is in alaska right now from the oil money and its really popular and it works really well, its about 2,000 a year. Why do you think the timing is so propatience for this kind of venture . Two reason, basically. I think the first thing is that its just completely crazy that we are living in incredibly rich countries but we still have People Living in the streets. People living in poverty. Thats a huge waste of human potential. Now, the other reason is that i think we should completely rethink what work is nowadays. There are so many people especially my generation working jobs right now that they think are completely pointless. A recent poll in the uk actually found out that firt 7 of british workers have a job that they think doesnt nied to exist. I mean just think about that. These are not like im not talk about the garbage man or the care workers or teacher im talk about bankser or people working for ad companies or bankers you name them tend of the day if you give them one bear maybe two theyll say my job doesnt add anything of value to the world and a baks income will give them the opportunity to do something they really care about and it does create real val zblu is there any evidence that suggests or tells us what universal basic income would do to any number of disparities that already exist in our culture . You mean in terms of inequality. Inequality, racial disparities, educational disparities . Yeah. It doesnt surprise me that black lives matter has come out in favor of universal income because if you provide a floor and fund it with for example a wealth text then, sure, thats going to help a lot. Do we pay taxes on this basic income . Well, i would say the best way to fund it is with a negative income tax. This means as soon as your income falls beloy a certain level its automatically topped out by the government. So in that way a life without poverty is not a favor anymore but a right. And if you do it that way, then its actually not very expensive, a said. About 175 billion. Yeah. Second tent tackle of this plan is a 15 hour workweek. Yeah. Which really excites me. Tell me more about this. How do we put up a 15hour workweek. You might be fas fate nated to know that the Great British economy nist 1930 he wrote an essay where he preikt dicted in 2,030 we would have that 15hour workweek. Back then almost everyone believed it, so everyone thought we would be working less and less and less and indeed thats what happened, up until the 70s. People were predicting robots are going to take over our jobs, et cetera, et cetera. In the 1980s we started working more and morp. Two explanations, basically. So the first one can consuming driven. We keep on dyeing buying stuff we dont need to impress people we dont like thats one explanation. And the other one is i think much more important, and its what david great britainer has called the rise of bs jobs, you know, meaningless jobs that dont actually need to exist. And that is one of the biggest taboos of our time right now. I mean, think we really need to rethink what work is and move towards a society where the value of your work is not determined just by the size of your paycheck back up by the amount of real value you create, the amount of happiness you spread and meaning you give. But how cot usa as a country still be productive in ermz of it manufacturing, whatever were exporting. Yeah. How could we remain productive if people are only working 15 hours a week. Thats a great question. What i think we should do is work less so that we can do more. You know, what is productivity . Is caring for our kids productive . Is caring for our elderly productive . Well, if you ask an economist, he didnt include it in gdp so its not included in Economic Growth or anything. But zwhae include is speculation on wall street, thats productive according it our economist. Well maybe we need to rethink that. So im not saying we should all sit on the couch and move to, you know, 15hour workweek and do knowing apart from that. We need work less in order do more. The third piece of this trilg is open borders and that in this country of course i shouldnt say just in this country. No, europe. Even more so where you live, more so in europe, just afraid open borders, the flood gates of criticism open up. How would you how do imagine that working . Well, let me first say that this is the most utomorrowian idea of my bok, but i think its important to remember that every six zation, slavery, equal rights for men and women, if we wont progress were we need to think in those utopiian terms. That said are i completely a degree with this, this is a radical idea. But theres a mountain of evidence that shows that immigration is by far the most powerful weapon weve got in the fight against global positive vert at this time. And that so many of the objectives that we often have against it, these are lays decide people theyll take our jobs, theyre all tear riftsds or whatever its not true. So what i think is very important is that we have more politicians and opinion leaders that actually have the courage to talk about immigration in a much more uplifting way. And especially in the saudi arabia, this is a country that was found, you know, on the strength of imgrants. But the benefit of open borders, the value of it is what . What do we get from it . Well, according to the economist estimates, it would double gdp worldwide basically. So, i mean, nowadays were living in the age of globalization, right . Goods can circle the globe. But actually since the year 2000, about 75 of all walls have been built. So in that sense were not exactly living in the age of globalization. It is i think hornz will look back on our time theyll see it as the biggest injustice that we ever had. I think when you say open borders people tepd to think that whats coming in are takers. Yeah. Not gifrz. Yeah. And they are actually i mean, if you look at the evidence and also historically, they are gifrz. A huge amount of companies being started in the u. S. Are founded by emgrantsz. Actually the father of steve jobs was a syrian immigrant we forget that. So i think its very important to tell a different story around all of these concepts, universal basic income, immigration. What i try do is use the language of the right, Venture Capital of the people, et cetera, and sues that language to defend progressive ideals. What the left does is say look at these poor people, we need to help mem them. Like were all some Good Samaritan or something . But everyone hates the Good Samaritan. We think hes an errant maybe we need to talk in very different terms about these ideas. Language does matter. You need to use words that work to be sure. Exact. I theyre radical ideas but as you said earlier there were a number of other ideas in this country that we thought were pretty radical until they happened. The book is called utopia for realists, how question build the real world written by rutger bregman. What way great name. Good to have you on the Program Thanks for your time. Up next debra winger, stay with us. Im im pleased to welcome debra winger to this pra gram the 3time oscar nominee known for iconic roles in classic films like urban cowboy and of course shadowland shes back now. The snoir her new movie is a scene from lovers starring debra winger and tracey lentz. I thought you were at home. Where are you . Where am i . Uh, i had to work late too. I just stepped out for a bite as we well, actually. The chinese restaurant. What about you . What are you eating . Im getting chinese too, funny enough. I like the duck. You should order the duck too. So did you try the duck . You know, i always i always try the duck, its part of my problem. Yeah. Okay. Well leave it at that. Yeah. You have fun doing this . I had a blast doing this, yeah. I ask that in part because much to your credit, because i can list a lunch of other foal being who should take your lead and be more de serving about the roles ta they choose, but you seem to be very methodical about methodical i wouldnt hif dont feel methodical inside but i am selective. Very selective. Methodical i would denote that i had a plan and. Okay. Yeah. Well go selective. Why, then, select this one skbl well, i mean, it had smrt of that feeling i had been exposed to earlier in my career by directors that i really dug, which was sort of a feeling of a blueprint but, you know, very exacting wrighting but sparse with a lot of room for you to bring the character to the piece and a lot of room for the audience to experience their life inside of the story. So there was enough room. And i was really attracted to jacobs who directed terry and a film called mom moos man and i said way tonight work with this cat. And it took three years of sending material back and forth to each other when he said here, i wrote this. And i went thats a subject im interested in. Marriage, how do you make love stick, you know, how do you make something as permanent as marriage is spoeupposed to be l in a world, in a universe thats made up impermanentence. How would you describe thats what the film is about, how how would you describe the film without giving it away . Ive been sitting here for like a couple days now trying to figure out how i do tell the story of what this is without giving it away . Because its got so many twists and turns in it . Well, i dont know if you give it away. Its not yeah. Once youre on the ride its a story of a marriage, right. Right. But i i think its a mystery. Yeah. Because i think were all in some way or another were all looking for some kind of love in our lives. Right. And were all looking to feel good about ourselves so question go out and do whatever it is we do. Right. Powerfully. And to feel that power, you know, people find that it comes from marriage, you know, that you empower each other, you light each other up. But its hard to make that stay real. Yeah. You know. And so we go from one to the other or we fall asleep. Yeah. And so this is about waking up. So theres some comedy in it, though. I didnt know it would be funny but im hearing that its fun sfli. Oh, no, some of the scenes and just the way you guys hfts i didnt know this traceylet. He was primarily known hes a pull litser pricewinning writer hes a wonderful auj her to and a theater guy, and so out of sig chicago from stepping wolf. But i mean one of the best acting partners ive ever had, completely patient, really smart, sat around. We had as much fun off camera well not that kind of fun. Youre back to the duck again. I put myself in there too you didnt have anything do with that. You through threw yourself under that bus. Unbelievable. Since you mentioned how much you enjoyed working with him i want to go back to something you said a moment ago you the you said you took this project because it remind you of people youd worked with in the past. Who your talking about. James bridges was my mentor. He made great films besides the ones i got to do with him china syndrome he was always ahead of 93055 which was about surrogate mothers. And we did urban cow i could tolkt in 1979. Its weird to say that. And he gave me a sense to how to exist inside of a movie. And sort of live in it like some really comfortable clothes and yet tell a compelling story. Whether you like to or not, its impossible at this point in your career to not have people be interested in having you look back on the classics that you have been involved in. You know how they show dogs in cartoons listening to someone and they just go like, blah, blah, walk, blah, blah all i heard was, like, look back classics, impossible. And you want me to pluf on to another question, is that it . No. Just like it is possible for me not to care. And the word career never occurred to me. So this just happened. There was no method to my m madness but some would agree there was some madness. Do you not think about it its only brought to your attention by mem like me . I do not look back on it. I do not think about it. I do often hold up the people that i was working with that made those things possible because those are all collaborations that were magical. As i feel this happened again, there was just you know, you cant tt its like, you know, i think tracey used the term magic pixie dust, although he would probably not admit that im quoting him. But it does feel like that because you just i dont know. You dont know. Youre ready, youve done your work, its like any job. Any other job ive had besides acting you have to get totally ready, you have to prepare, you saw this film for me, you know, you read incredibly interpretive and deeply into things so that you can interview someone. So i just get ready. I think about the subject matter, i in this case marriage, middleclass families and how theyve been struggling lately because this is shot in a sort of generic, upwardly what used to be upwardly mobile for america. But i would say that the people that we rented the house from to shoot this movie who i got to know, they needed the money that they got for this film being made there. And hes an iraqian veteran with a couple of kids. And this is what happened, that this part of life has dropped out, the middle. We are struggling, were white nuck willing it. And so a marriage, i mean, its pretty luxurious to say i want to get a divorce, well both have separate places, this isnt working for me. Youve got to have some money to be able to, you know, and have you to be not dogtired from your job and i think this tells a story of americana. Im not making it sound like a comedy, am i . No, you pulled it in, in part because theres an old, you know, phrase theres no romance without finance. But on a very serious level which is where you were going, is that these these realities of the world that we live in today in this particular trump moment, they do impact families. Yes. And that does impact love. And i never really process today until you said it that way, but these realities impact the love that people have in relationships. And its strange love relationships. It does. Because if youre struggling for everything you cant i mean forget about going out, you know. Youre with each other too much in a way, you know. Theres not the recreation goes out of your life. And the stress of money, i mean, i grew up with parents that were always arguing about money, you know. It was always a balancing act, it was always, you know, very unsettling because they were living just a little bit above their means and i think that we encourage that in america, banks and, you know, yeah, you can pay this credit card with that credit card and i would say michael and mary in the film are really, you know, you hear about little bit about their past in it. They wanted to kind of be musicians, maybe they were good, maybe they werent. But they had a kid and suddenly it was like weve got to find some good school and so you find yourself in this home gund, wow, this is a little bit more than we could afford but the banks going to help us. Slippery slope. Who do you think is this film is for, the audience for this film . Oh, lord. I hope i dont know. Yeah. Because if i knew, i dont know, that just seems so limiting. My youngest son always calls me something centric, whatever im doing. Ork youre so gender sent trick, mom. So im not trying to be centric here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to say that marriage is, you know, appeals to a lot of people, people have been fighting for the right to mary. Yeah. Swoi si would say that anybot is looking to make love last and wants to think about ha that means would be interested in this, plus its kind of a hoot. And a 24, the company that put it out there seems to have their finger on the pulse of whats going on in a cuttingedge way. I feel like this is moving the needle. I dont think its just reflecting on something, i actually think its asking a question which, to me, is the biggest compliment i can give a film is do i go home with a take away prize where i goat think about something. Good to have you on the program. Thanks. Your first and not your last i hope. I hope not. Lovers is a great friend check it out. And as always, keep the faith. For more information on todays show, visit tavis smiley at pbs. Org. Im tavis smiley join me next time for conversation with les did i stall, and filmmaker john waters. Thats next time. Well see youl did i stall, and john waters. Thats next time. Well see yi did i stall, and fr john waters. Thats next time. Well see ye did i stall, and filmmaker john waters. Thats next time. Well see yid i stall, and filmr john waters. Thats next time. Well see yid i stall, and film john waters. Thats next time. Well see yd i stall, and filmm john waters. Thats next time. Well see yi stall, and filmmak john waters. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank today on americas test kitchen, julia and bridget share the secrets to foolproof oatmeal cookies. Adam reviews prep bowls with bridget. Lisa reviews the best pie carriers, and elle makes julia outstanding ultranutty pecan bars. Its all coming up right here on americas test kitchen. Americas test kitchen is brought to you by the following Fisher Paykel. Since 1934, Fisher Paykel has been designing