♪ >> and by contributions to your pbs station by viewers like you. thank you. >> i'm so pleased to welcome jane mayer back to this program. she spent years cracking the shadowy world of the ultra rich and how they push their agendas. her latest text is called "dark money." it's good to see you. >> great to be with you. >> you were not surprised given the back story with what happened in november. >> i wish i could say that were so. i didn't see necessarily trump being the choice. i think the power of the right is incredibly great, and hard to get around, but you know the people, i was writing about, the koch brothers backed other republicans. there was a swivel in the road. >> maybe not trump, but you saw the influence they had, the money they were spending, and what you detail here that they were pushing to have someone of their choice, of their mind-set in the oval office? >> yes, and what i had been seeing and following through the obama years and through the election was the power of the machine that was pushing against democrats. there is kind of so much money against democrats and hillary clinton at this point and in the last election. so i was looking at that and all over the country. there have been state houses flipped with right-wing money all over the country. it makes it hard for democrats to one. >> it is strange to ask, in your last statement, does the money make that much of a difference? i ask that because once you buy so many television commercials, at some point it seems to me that we become e necessanumb to. does it make that much of a difference? >> it makes a very good question because trump was not the candidate that spent the most money. hillary clinton spent more. >> don't get me started about jeb bush. >> other republican candidates had much more big money behind them. so you look at trump and you say maybe it doesn't matter so much, unfortunately it matter hugely in almost every election, all over the country, the candidate that spent the most money was the one that won. when you think about trump, he didn't need a lot of big backers, he spent $66 million of his own money with, a billionai his own right running. if there is point that i would really like to get across, it is that money matters in ways that's not just what you spend on candidates. what this book is about is the back story of how people with very right-wing agendas and a tremendous amount of money have subsidized a machine that is not just about elections. they have subsidizing programs, universities, pushing their point of view. alternative media outlets like breitbart news, think tanks that put out fake academic sounding studies that say global warming is not real because there are so many fossil fuel people in this movement. there are so many ways to shape opinions, not just elections. it is deeper and harder to fight because it is spending on a grand scale in many subtle ways. >> let me just try to remember what i want to ask, i will go in this order, first, since you just mentioned fossil fuels. we just came off of a weekend with a march for science. how did it become such a holy owned subsidiary? >> the fossil fuel industry is probably the most powerful industry in the history of earth. the amount of money that is made by oil and gas companies is huge. they have a lot of money to spend, and they look at any agenda that will get us off of fossil fuels. they're spending tons of money, millions and millions, to try to convince people that global warming is not real and they have been under mining science. the company spent the money they have been spending to try to change public opinion. it is a fascinating problem all over the world. scientists and most of the general population are seeing climate change is really serious and you is to do something ant it. >> so to your point and i'm not lye yooef in asking this, the money allows you to press your case. it doesn't necessarily mean that people have to offer themselves up to attack the money or accept the lie that you're pushing, so how is it that a significant number of people are changing. >> you have a small group, we're talking maybe 400 billionaires and how did they get what they want? they put money into campaigns and they threaten to run primary opponents, challengers against any candidate that won't toe their lines and they're scared about it. the politicians want to be reelected. they don't want a tough primary opponent, and the koch's made people sign an agreement that says we promise not to do anything about global warming in exchange, you will get your campaign contributions. a lot of people in congress have signed that agreement. >> i'm glad you went there because i think to not understand this is willful denial or being naive, but the answer of fear is, i think, better understood than the answer of just money. people throw money around here, there, and everywhere. if you say to me that the real reason why i'm pushing this koch brother's agenda is not because i agree, but i don't want to lose my position. i know it is shadowy, but i don't want to lose. not necessarily because i don't want to make the data in front of me. >> if you put a member of congress on a lie detector test, if they don't believe in climate change, they do and they understand it. but they want to get reelected. >> the koch brothers are not the only two rich white guys in the country in the fossil fuel industry. how did they end up being the two guys? >> and to a certain extent, there are other ones we know. there are others that are important, but there are four koch brothers, and charles koch, they're all from wichita, kansas. he is a really fascinating and driven character who has had tremendous influence on american politics. very few people know them personally. he is very secretive, under the radar. and he and his brothers are worth about $85 billion. that gives them a lot of weight. they have the money, the brains, and he has the passion player in player. >> some would argue that he is pushing guys that doesn't necessarily make him smart, it might make him greety. >> he has two great degrees from mit. an engineer, okay? and the thing is, it is interesting what there is, what he and his drove, david koch, also a graduate of mit,oth of them looked at that is a -- where are the systems, the wid g widgets, how can we turn the dials, and what interested me when i was writing about them, and their point of view, they tried running in an election in 1980 on a libertarian ticket. he ran against ronald reagan from the right, because they thought reagan was too liberal -- >> that's scary. >> so they tried the old fashioned way and they got less than 1% and they spent millions of their own dollars. manies of them give up, they did not, they said we're going to win it another way, we're going to rig the system. and they spent the last 40 years figuring out how do you rig it. >> so it has ban engineeri-- be engineering this for years. >> i imagine a lot of your viewers don't realize it but they use koch brothers products, brawny paper towels, georgia pacific lum bber. they have a huge business to protect. they think that the free market should sold everything. and that government should not be in the social safety net for the poor. >> thanks to your research, i have been aware for the products based on the -- i should not say burned, but i have been at a number of different cultural events, and i'm going through the program, and i get to the back, and this program is sponsored by the generous contribution. they have been smart enough and maybe this is part of their world view as well. they have been really good at their use. by giving a lot of money to arts programs and other programs, and i'm sitting here thinking it is sponsored by koch brothers. i asked that to see whether or not that bought them any -- i'm talking about causes they have given money to. >> something their critics talk about and it is what they describe as them having all of the tentacles all through the country. a lot of what they have done is put their same on the conversation and public television. all of these good causes need money. it was actually, to tell you the truth, when i saw david koch name on lynn kahn center in new york, i thought i'm an new yorker, i grew up there, and i thought i best most people in new york don't have any idea who these people really are. >> let me ask you a politics question and you can punt if you want. i don't want you to be put in a seat of judgment, but at what price do they take the money. who is aware of giving the money? >> this is a touchy question. after 2012, the cokes put a lot of money into trying to get romney elected. they went back to the drawing board to figure out what went wrong. here is the problem, they say you have an image problem. they decided they needed to fix up their image, and one of the things they consciously decided they needed to do was form alliances with unlikely groups, including, they put money into historically black colleges. they put in united negro college fund, and getting involved in criminal justice reform. but they started pouring money into making causes with the whole criminal justice reform network. . i have been watching them for five years now. i saw and listened to a tape that described their public relations people saying we need to look better and we're going to go to the black community to try and improve our image. i was very suspicious of it and i still am. whatever good they do for criminal justice reform, that move is doing better for coke. you're whitewashing their reputati reputation. it is a tough question. . they have not been friends to the black community. i am sorry. or to to the poor -- >> or the white community. >> or the poor white. they have plants that make chemicals in this counsel try that have been horrible polluters. >> you mentioned ronald reagan earlier in the conversation. in the 80s, he was given money by the gay republicans, and it became a huge -- it became a huge he has a smooth line. he said i took -- maybe i took money from them, but that just means they support my agenda, not support their agenda. it was a slick line. i raise this now because if you're hbcu, are they using yours or are you being used unwhit gli unwhitingly. part of the government, putting people in jail unnecessarily for years. what is not so good is they're putting money into campaigns across the country of people that have been working an law and order, racial dog whistles, and it's good that they're putting money in there and they should say to stop backing the racist campaigns. >> they can't do that, but aagree. they are cleaning up their image where it shows. >> the only thing i add to that is i don't want it to be misconstrued, the black organizations should stop, and so should the white folk. >> bill keller has a great organization that looks at criminal justice issues. it did a study and it looked at what candidates do. and they are making a big show of meeting in the obama white house working for criminal justice reform, and i guess i feel as a reporter that the public should see the big picture. what personal price have you paid for this? have they are tracking you, chasing you, digging into your life? >> yeah, they have, and i'm not alone. they, actually, it never happened to me before. i discovered later and howard safer started digging through my life and find dirt so they could tarnish my reputation and ruin my work. >> they failed on that one. >> i lived to tell the story but i'm lucky, i'm at a great magazine with an incredible publisher. the koch brothers and others very bullying very super interesting -- there are stories of people felt their phones were beining tapped, they felt they were being followed. and why does it matter? it's not just because you don't want mean millionaires. what i don't want is they take out the press when the press starts telling the truth about them or push their way through the government to get stuff -- policy that is good for them. . >> i can ask what happens when one of them is in the oval office, but i digress. let me ask whether or not we have seen and i think this is the thing. i think charles is still going strong and charles is the engine of this thing. other billionaires, they tries to influence the last election. what do say see in 2020. do they come back? i'm waiting to see. >> the book is called "dark money." the rise of billionaires, thank you for coming on, thank you for your work. >> that's our show for tonight, as always, keep the faith. . ♪ >> i'm tavis smiley, join me next time to talk about gridlock that has frozen the agency. that's next time, we'll see you then. ♪ brought to you by contributions from viewers like you. thank you. steves: prague's old town square, once just another farmers market, is now the heart of the city, but today, the commerce is clearly tourism. the fanciful gothic tyn church soars over everything as if to remind tourists lots of religious history took place right here. back in the 15th century, when some christians were beginning to struggle against roman catholic dominance, this was prague's leading hussite church. hussites were followers of jan hus, whose statue graces the square. he was a local preacher who got in trouble with the vatican a hundred years before martin luther and the reformation. the chalice is a symbol of hus and his followers, who believed everyone, not just priests, should be able to partake in the eucharist, or holy communion. these days, huge crowds gather at the 15th-century astronomical clock back on the old town square. the dials seem to tell you everything you could possibly want to know. it tells the phases of the moon, sunset, current sign of the zodiac, each day's special saint, and, somehow, it even tells the time. and of course, 500 years ago, everything revolved around the earth. at the top of the hour, death tips his hourglass and pulls the cord. the windows open as the twelve apostles parade by, acknowledging the gang of onlookers. the rooster crows... ...and finally, the bell rings. but my favorite part of the show is watching the crowd gawk. good evening, from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. ripple effects in both directions across the atlantic have piqued the interest of many american voters who are finally starting to pay attention to the elections in britain and in france. tonight, we'll sort it all out with gary yooununge, editor at large for the "guardian." and author of a powerful new book, "another day in the death of america." we're glad you joined us. journalist gary younge in just a moment. ♪