sift. coming up right now. >> contributions from'm to your pbs station from viewers like you, thank you. america's criminal justice system has become a critical debate. the impact on people of color. however, the war on crime that deeg began in the 1970s, in the book "locking up our own, crime and punishment in america." professor foreman, good to have you on this program. ru part of a grand legacy. good to be here. >> let me start with the remarks of the relatively new attorney general, jeff sessions. he wants to go back to the re n reagan era tactics, my read of it was undoing everything that eric holder tried to do. is that the right or wrong direction? >> it is the wrong direction, he wants to take us back to policy that is have proven to have fail and caused great damage. if you think about attorney general session, he said marijuana is slightly less deadly than heroine. people have gotten to a point where they recognize the era in the approach, they recognize the incredible damage and pain they have caused to so many communities, especially the african american community, but not only the african american committee. >> when you hear sessions say this it is a throw back, it is such an error. >> we seemed to be gaining on, the advances that we have made on mass encarseration. >> that is the right word. the only thing i would say, the movement to combat mass encarseration, the movement is much more powerful than attorney general sessions. i know that is hard. president trump gets the media attention. 88% of the prisoners are in state and local prison. and law enforcement are state and local law enforcement. it is state and local decisions, that help to create this problem of mass incarseration. precisely with everything that you write about in the book. we can't lock our way up out of this. spin our way out of this. there is bipartisan support, why would he try to throw a monkey wrench into all of this? >> i can't get into his head. he has been fighting it, even when he was in the senate. you talk about a bipartisan consensus. >> booker came out against him so -- >> who is the one you don't want to make attorney general for this issue, it would be him. he is doing what he has been doing. now he is doing it from a slightly different vantage point. >> what do you say, when jeff sessions grabs your book, and said, professor foreman, even black folks were down with these policies back in the 1970s. >> one of the things i will say, more and more of them realized the mistake of their ways, if we are going to talk about where people are now, versus where people were in the 1970s, talk about the evolution of their thinking. the d.c. council, when i write a lot about, in 1975, they chose not to decriminalize marijuana. it was proposed by a white civil council member, he said, i want to decriminalize marijuana. there it was a black counselor member, doug moore, they didn't oppose it about wanting to incarce rmp incar incarcera incarcerate. i understand the thinking in 1975. if you look at the d.c. city council today in 2014, they face the same issue, the exact same question, whether or not to decriminalize marijuana. now, they have a 40-year history of the failed war on drugs, what did they do? made the opposite decision. they did decriminalize marijuana, they had seen how many young people of all ages were getting stigmatized with criminal records. if he wants to envoke readers, they have turned the corner, and seen the damage. that same community that was asking for tougher laws in the 1970s, they were asking for a marshall plan for urban america. they were asking for investment in job training, mental health, the same things that trump administration was trying to get rid of through their attempt to repeal the affordable care act. those leaders in this book, jeff sessions can't envoke them to defend his current position. >> how shocked were you when bill clinton, during the campaign for his wife, that some of his ideas were wrong when he was president. >> i was glad. i was pleased. again, that shows that people's thinking that evolve. they can take in new information, they can look and see what has been created by for the 1994 crime bill, the particular thing that i think he was talking about. he saw the development to mass incarseration. that is the thing, we -- the irony, frankly t is the lunacy. of sessions comparing marijuana to heroine. we know why, it was a racist policy to begin with. i mean, you have crack use in the streetings, cocaine use in the suites, it leads me to ask, how much damage has been done? how bad is the damage? >> it is terrible. it is, i mean, people talk about this as being the civil rights crisis of our generation, i became a public defender even then t in the 19 niptds, we could see, when i joined the public defender's office in d.c., that point in time, the united states passed south africa and russia as the world's leader in incarceration. we have left everyone else way behind. we have had a situation where, even despite the advances of the rights movement, the rate of african american incarceration has increased. when i became a public defender, one in two people in prison were african american. that number has gone down in the years since. 2.2 million people in prison. seven million under criminal justice supervision. i know i meet them, people who they are not under the criminal justice system, but they have a conviction, they have trouble getting housing, student loans, trouble getting a job. >> it is a problem, i do think that sometimes we can overstate it. most prisons, and almost all law enforcement is still a public function. california. the public prison union was an incredible powerful force. still is to fighting any reform, so, private prisons are a problem. they are a real problem. there should not be a profit motive in the corrections system. they aren't the main problem. he has a republican house, republican senate, any chance he gets traction on these ideas, that there will be a retrenchment of these issues? >> i think there will be retrenchment at the federal level, the united states attorneys that report to jeff sessions, how they operate. i think that will happen. the movement for reformat the state and local level is powerful. you have for the first time, people who were incarcerated, who have leadership roles in some criminal justice reform organization, they are able to make the powerful moral case, and change the minds of the legislators, to see how they have been reformed. we have a new level, as we said, crime victims don't necessarily want just longer prison sentences. they want that, if the option is nothing. if you tell someone who is victimized by crime, it is prison or nothing. if you tell something, do you want job training, drug treatment, restitution, restorative justice. people know prison doesn't work. >> they won't find those things in trump's budget. >> the book is called locking up our own, by james foreman jr. thank you for the talk, and the text. good to have you on. stay with us. >> pleased to welcome maggie sift. "billions" goes inside the fictional mind of the hedge fund titan, known as ax. here is a clip from this week's episode. >> why are you staying? >> that is what i am asking myself. i built something. i put myself into it. now, what you fell in love with? >> i went back to see fistill could. it is something i tell my patients, when they are hesitating about making a move in their own life. sometimes you have to jump all the way in to find out. >> we are luck tow have you. >> it is about you, it is hard to know, when you keep working at it. when do you give up? >> i love him. >> i do, too. >> it must make a huge difference, to know what i am talking about. make a huge difference to be working that closely with someone who you do like. who you do respect. where the chemistry. i expect every chemistry you played, you don't always have that experience. it must be nice. >> i have been remarkably luck tow love most of my co-stars, when you are playing something like a marriage, that has history, and so many years behind it, to really love the person you are working with, to be able to call cut, and keep having the conversation, learning and sharing stories, he is like, wickedly funny. he makes me laugh like nobody else. he plays a lot of serious, and dark characteristics who, he is light and hilarious. an amazing thing to be around. >> speaking of, tell us about billions. tell us about your character. >> she walks an interesting line. she is the in-house psychotherapist, for bobby axelrod, but she is married to the attorney for the southern district of new york, paul gemotty. they are going after each other. i think the twinkle, she and her husband have a dominant/submiss ive relationship. she is smart and dominant in a lot of realms. >> what is the joy of playing a character like that? >> well, you know, i myself, personally, and as an actor, i am pretty, i am like a modest, shy person. stepping into that aspect of the character, is somewhat challenging for me. there is joy in it, it is so outside myself, that is something sort of interesting, and new. how it exposes the facet of their marriage. the thing i find interesting, is somewhere along the line, they made room for that in their marriage. the way we talked about it, they are not going to clubs or within a community, they are figuring it out on their own. dyi bdsm. the question that raises, how did that conversation happen? who approached it? how did the other person take it? it is interesting to think about. >> what i thought, if you are that shy in real life, it shows what a great thespian you are. >> thank you. >> smart, strategic but smart on the part of the writers and creators, to make a guy who does what he does for a living exist in that kind of world. i am sure there is somebody that does that in real life. it seems so -- to the character that he plays by day? >> he takes a certain amount of pleasure in sort of you know, twisting the screws in his own life. it seems to be met, equally by the personal pleasure he takes in having the screws twisted on him. it is almost like a relieve for him. >> yes. >> i noticed it made the character make sense, gave him dimension dimensionality. >> what you think the audience is making of him to date? >> i think one of the things that the show does well, it is kind of like the pizazz the show, is that all of these peez are smarter than anyone you know. think 500 steps ahead of everybody else. you root for them, because they are so impressive. and you know, there is a game, and a fun, of following where they are going, what they are doing. there is aulgz a questi-- alway question. how corruptable are they? all the power and wealth, how does the corruption go, will they walk back from the cliff? are they going over it, not looking back. i think that is what we feel about the ax )£!á he is scrappy, come from nothing, so much life force. passions and stuff. ux that question hoovers over him, you hope for his humanity. he is a billionaire, the question is his credibility and how far gone he is. >> it is fascinating, in this moment, that we have a billionaire, people are asking if he is a socio- path. we are concerned about his corruptability. rooting for humanity to show itself. the creates of this show would not know that dochbanald trump d be president. how does it feel doing the show, when the issues are parallel to real life. how does it feel to be in that space in a show like this? >> i am really interested to see where they go next season, now that it politics have caught up to our topic and the questions we are asking. it is complicated. i feel with all entertainment there is a critique of that wealth and bobby axelrod, there is an entertainment of it. there is an oohh and ahh, critique about the gender stuff going on at the same time, there was this lushness around how the women were dressed, and justification of the women that was simultaneously sbraping, i feel like everything walks that line. it is just about how skillfully the people creating the show choose to walk that line. i think they did a good job this year. sort of posing those questions of like how corruptable is this guy? how deep is his soul. they have set themselves up for an interesting season, you can't not think about the politics now. >> for fans of the show, it will be fascinating. i hadn't processed, prior to you sitting in the chair. you have been the beneficiary of such good writing, this is isn't a gratuitious shout on the, you have been "sons offanarchy." "billions." being in the hands of those who write l. >> yes, i have been lucky. kind of like i come from new york, theater, found myself in the world of capable television, cast in "mad men" out of new york. and out of what i had been doing, theater stuff, to the long form story telling was taking off in terms of depth quality, and the great writers going to television, i have reaped the benefit of that in all of those shows. >> i told maggie, i had to stop by barber from coming in it he would have been staug you. a lot of folks are loving it on showtime. thank you for watching, as always, keep the faith. for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley on pbs.org. >> join me next time, with legendary entertainer, tony bennett. that is next time, see you then. good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. a little over three months into the trump presidency, and the administration is confronting two major world crises -- the civil war in syria and north korea's growing nuclear weapons program, but what are president trump's foreign policy plans, and what about issues here at home like jobs and health care? tonight, a conversation with two-time pulitzer prize-winner, journalist and author nicholas kristof of "the new york times." we're glad you've joined us. that conversation starting right now. ♪

Related Keywords

United States , New York , California , North Korea , Syria , Russia , South Africa , America , American , Bobby Axelrod , Doug Moore , Tony Bennett , Los Angeles , Nicholas Kristof , Regan Reagan ,