Who say if i knew this would be the barometer, i would have schlepped to australia every year. Mcenroe played a few times so lets not give him a completely free pass. He never won but certainly didnt play the way players do today. I think its a fun conversation but also think just objectively john mcenroe didnt win a major title after he turned 25, neither did be bjorn borg. Roger fearedderrer won in 2003. There are other factors that speak to this. Frost conclude with writer, director and actress zoe listerjones, she talked to Josh Horowitz of mtv news about her new film band aid. My work generally xplorers pow explores Power Dynamics in modern relationships which is something i think ive wrestled with on a personal level but also i feel like the world at large has wrestled with for centuries and nobody has really been able to crack the code no mary no matter how many times people attempt to explore it on screen. When we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following bank of america. Life better connected. And by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Frost . Frost good evening. Charlie is away. Im wildred frost. We begin this evening with foreign policy. President trump arrived in france today for a twoday visit with frances new president emmanuel macron. Following a tour of the military edifice, the two president s held their First Official bilateral meeting. Today also marks the oneyear anniversary of theresa may becoming britains Prime Minister and the day the United States reached its refugee camp. Joining me is matthew barzun, recently stepped down from post as u. S. U. S. To the United Kingdom and David Miliband president of the International Rescue committee and a former British Foreign secretary. Pleased to welcome them both to this table. President trumps visit to france. Earlier today he held a press conference with emmanuel macron. The tone compared to the end of may a n. A. T. O. Conference with the infamous strained handshake between the two. How do you think the president of the United States is viewed in europe at the moment. Dont take it from me. You can look at the polls and theyre clear that President Trumps positions on a range of issues are in stark contrast of the center of european opinion. He stepped back from advocating more countries should leave the European Union, but i think his decision with respect to the Paris Climate Accord struck very, very hard. I think what youre seeing is president macron starting a startling pace in the first 60 days of his presidency, out there establishing himself with Angela Merkel as a joint leader of europe, as the spirit of hope in europe. A french minister said britain has chosen brexit, america has chosen retreat, france has chosen hope. Theres a sense of boldness there. I think president macron sees an opportunity in this british retreat for him to establish himself, a hard power, france is meeting the 2 defense commitment, so hes not going to get a hit from President Trump on that, and i think the story of the day in a way is partly why President Trump agreed to go, a good thing he did, but also the entrepreneurship of president macron inviting him in the first place. Frost do you think there is a strange similar later between president macron and President Trump . Both political outsiders, not originally part of a traditional Political Party and now in quick succession leading their respective nations . Well, president macron has broken the two main parties of french politics. So i dont immediately see the similarities. President macron made it a centerpiece of his president to strengthen multilateral institutions, above all the European Union, very strongly committed to the united nations, President Trump stepping away, really. I think one thing that will be interesting when the details come out of the meeting is from a french point of view, President Trump and the administration have been saying about human rights and related issues has come down badly and i wonder how thats been taken on. Mathew, in sense of a clear focus from President Trump on bilateral rather than multilateral relations whether g20 or n. A. T. O. , is that a mistake or can he as hes seemingly shown or started to show today achieve as much as the u. S. Would want to achieve through simple bilateral relations . Look, i think its both and, certainly, i wont speak for the current president , the for my former boss barack obama, is a great example of how you do both and. David mentioned the climate accord. The progress in paris and getting all of those 196 countries to sign on was really spurred on by a bilateral deal between the United States and china, so if you do both well, you can get good results. And indeed, today, President Trump did suggest there was a possibility in the future that the u. S. Would return and that wasnt his base case. I think if i can chime in one second, tell me the thing david said about characterizing a french friends comment about what the United States was doing. I think its important to say that governors, mayors, companies in the United States arent retreating, theyre engaging, many are, in the case of climate, living up to the target set by that and doing it for Good Business reasons, good political reasons to protect the air and the water and the planet that they care a lot about. So i think we spend so much time on shows like this and everywhere else talking about the Current Administration with good reason. I think its important we dont lose sight of the progress happening in other places. And, david, in terms of the g20 meeting at the weekend, you wrote going into it that the g20 was set up to address pressing growing problems and the refugee crisis was crying out for such leadership. Did the refugee crisis receive that leadership . Yes, and aid for africa is massively underfunded, familiarens threatening in africa, somalia, northeast nigeria and yemen isnt quite in africa, but the u. N. Said its the worst humanitarian catastrophe for 60 or 70 years, and whats interesting these familiarens are a product of Political Division and conflict. Its war producing the conditions that people dont have the access to food. They cant grow crops and there is a g20 initiative around them but if you compare to the scale of after the Second World War there is no comparison, it taken engagement to turn into something powering forward. Thats when i think people are asking the question around the world, in western europe, and also in china, india, where is america going to put its effort, is it only going to focus on its home front or does America First mean room for engagement abroad as well. Frost in your take as has the u. S. Position changed in stark context since your boss left office . I think so, demonstrably. In my six months being home and trying to reacclimate, its great to be home. I was in a selfimposed media blackout the first few weeks and went back and read great books and watched great documentaries and i was reminded this was late 1940 gallup asks americans, the brits are gettin getting blitz d america says shall we come to your aid and 8 out of 10 said no thank you. In that same poll they asked 50 questions, same group of people, if push comes to shove and we have to pick with cutting a separate piece with hitler or coming to the aid of our british friends, seven out of ten said well go with our friends, the brits, which thankfully we did. Im wary of people overgeneralizing about the american people. Im living in kentucky, its a wonderful mix of republican, democrats, independents, and i think sometimes that is lost hat the same people can have two very different contradictions within them. Frost david whats your take on this issue, public opinion. I think its polarized. How hard is it to lead an american gog at a time of backlash against refugees. I say be careful. There is some fear of refugees but for every person who says we dont want Syrian Refugees moving into our community, another part is saying, hang on, our heritage is from abroad, we welcome people who are victims of terror and want to make their new life. We run 26 offices around the u. S. , big cities, small towns, and there is polarization, and you see that from the polling as well. You see the extraordinary american generosity coming through. People literally have people coming around from next door with the cookies and the brownies when they move in, and you also have fear and loathing. For me as someone whos obviously not an american,eth sad an issue that had been bipartisan for so long should have this taint of bipartisanship. America has been the leader in refugee reassessment for the last 50, 60 years. After 9 11 the Bush Administration insisted only a twomonth pause. This is cause to the american idea it will be the place to welcome people around the world who want to go through the vetting and make a new life. If the Trump Administration goes through the plan to reduce to less than 50,000 the number of refugees that are let in, that sends a terrible message around the world. Uganda has a million refugees. The average income is 962 per year, and the ugandans say well take these people, theyre our brothers and sisters and well look after them till they go home. There is an important lesson there. David, the level of the issue you feel is sometimes underestimated because the length of displacement people experience has risen sharply. Thats a good point. The average refugee is out of their country for ten years. So suddenly issues of education and employment have been become central. The sector i work in the humanitarian sector doesnt invest in the education. Less than 2 of the global humanitarian budget goes to education. So youve got millions of kids who are displaced by conflict become refugees and theyre not able to get education. So one of the things we argue for is yes we need more aid but we need a better aid system and i think its important to say the two together. David, president macron said he intends to keep an open dialogue with president putin in the two bilateral meetings already. Do you see the tone improving . No, basically because there are too many divided interests. Russian interests isnt dividing europe further. European interests are finding ways to stand up for its own territory because members of the European Union are deeply threatened by what they see as an aggressive russia. So i think the tone matters but substance matters much more, and i think that were at a very, very dangerous period because the global system being built over the last 75 years had an american anchor, but it also had other multilateral institutions like the European Union. Im not a voting person but if you pull up the anchor the im not a boating person but if you pull up the anchor the boat rocks. When the american anchor of the global system isnt there and there is unpredictability, someone in the administration wants to make a virtue of unpredictability, if youre a small, weak country, thats a good thing to have up your sleeve. If youre the worlds anchor, predictability is important because youre the benchmark from which everyone else establishes their behavior. I think especially with the russians, you dont want them testing you out and you want them to know well in add vanities what your positions are. Some of the red lines the Previous Administration had were around that. I think its important the russians do know that is more united than at the time of the brexit vote, that europe is not going to put up with interference, will maintain position on ukraine, sanctions and other issues and that predictability from great powers is really important, i think. At the risk of mixing maritime met forest, i think ballast is a better one because i think a ballast in the ship that provides stability to all the points you make. I think anchor is fixed in time and place, and i think the reality of our world sitting here in 2017, isnt 70 years ago, and a lot of things have changed. So sometimes i think i certainly saw this on my last job, people want ago certain kind of American Leadership from the good old days and i think the kinds of leadership needs to change. I think president obama was a wonderful example. I probably would say that and really believed it of how to manage change and provide stability through change. I like the ballast idea but its got to be, without getting too deep in it, the ballast becomes a dead weight, and the agility youre speaking to i think is really important, but the commitment has got to be there as well, and to go back to the other part of the conversation, the multilateral and bilateral have to reinforce each other and it will be a great pity p the u. S. Administration only sees the International System as one of bilateral transactions. It cant be. Eth got to be a system thats got its integrity. Charlies sailing viewers will be enjoying the show particularly. One area that has been progressed in the short term have been the iraqi forces recapturing mosul and a cease fire of the last few days starting to be established in syria. Is that a groundbreaking change for that region in terms of progress, particularly in terms of what you look at in refugees, or is it just a small start . Not yet, i would say in answer to your question, not yet groundbreaking. Weve got about 1200 people on the ground inside syria another several hundred in iraq, more in jordan and lebanon, and i was in mosul in march of this year, on the outskirts of mosul where some of the people were fleeing, and two things struck me very strongly. The first is the people coming out of mosul, they are traumatized. Theyve lived for two and a half years under tyrannical rule in fear of death and the level of trauma, you can see the physical bombardment, but the mental bombardment has been equally big. The second thing thats really important is if there isnt serious politics that sunni communities in the middle east can buy into, if there arent credible legitimate representatives of sunni communities, if sunni communities feel ostracized or under pressure from shia militias and others and there isnt a political route for them to defend themselves, especially true in iraq but also in syria, then im afraid there is going to be Fertile Ground for i. S. I. S. 2. 0, 3. 0, 4. 0 to build on, an thats why its not yet a landmark. It will only be a landmark when there is a credible sharing of legitimate, political power. In terms of some of the course force how we got to this position in the first place, your former boss, tony blair, the former british Prime Minister, refused to admit outright that the war was a mistake and the cause for the situation. Is that something you admit that you think snifts. I think it certainly was a mistake, first of all because of the fact the weapons were not there the weapons of mass destruction were not there, but for other reasons. I think strategically it did not take efficient account of, for example, the position of iran and how the deposition of Saddam Hussein would strengthen the irani position. And second it was a military mistake because the war in afghanistan was not yet finished and i think that its wrong to believe that everything thats happened in iraq over the last 15 years is the result of the invasion, but its hard to explain anything in iraq without some recognition of the tumult caused not just by the war because remember the war was won fast but the building of the peace was a terrible failure in iraq and were paying the consequences today. Frost mathew i want to focus on some of your memories in the United Kingdom and first of all focus on your view of what difference it makes to have a separate head of state as head of government the u. K. Has and specifically your memories of her majesty the queen . It was just happy memories on that front. One of the things serving in your wonderful country and because you do have a different head of government and head of state is that i was more reminded of how we in this country so we project on to our president aspects of both, and thats why you see the reaction of people who really didnt like my former boss and people now who really dont like their current president are concerned about it. They bring more to that than just policy disagreements. I mean, they really bring it identity and emotion, and i think its important we never forget people say what tuning, and what do you think . Its really important we ask how people feel, too, because thats a big motivator for all of us in our democracies at the ballot box. I got into trouble once because i said out loud youre not supposed to reveal anything you say to her majesty. A shaft of lightning will hit you, if youre not careful. I messed up and i think there is maybe doubl double jeopardy. There was a moment during my official presentations of credentials, we were doing all that, and i used to work in the internet industry so we talked about technology. I commented because i came in with a top hat and a coach which is unusual for an american. And a brit. I said, all these pe