Insinuation that he is putting forward in these attacks. While on the republican side, says ted cruz and the republican establishment arent playing fair. This is a rigged system, folks. The Republican National committee, they should be themselves for allowing this kind of crap to happen yelling ands been screaming. A lot of whining. The House Speaker of says this time he really means it. Let me be clear. Not want, nor will i accept, the nomination for our party. Our coverage of the president ial come naiting nominating march continues with ed okeefe, political reporter for the washington post, jonathan martin, National Political correspondent for the new york times, Michael Scherer, bureau for time magazine, and alexis simendinger, White House Correspondent for real clear politics. Awardwinning reporting and analysis, covering history as it happens, live from our Nations Capital, this is Washington Week with gwen ifill. This is Washington Week with ifill. 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And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. You once again, live from washington, sitting in for gwen ifill this week, Pete Williams of nbc news. Good evening. Song ever broadcast by radio was performed on board a the Brooklyn Navy yard. It was called i love you truly. Last night, there was anything air in brooklyn, as Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders met in that spot for their first debate in five weeks. She was hoping to end his recent string of seven straight victories. The tone with his first answer about whether shes qualified to be president. Oh, i question her judgment. Super p. A. C. s, which are collecting tens of special of dollars from interests, including 15 million from wall street. Believe that that is the kind of judgment we need to be of president we need. Well, the people of new york voted for me twice to be their senator from new york [cheering] and president obama trusted my judgment enough to ask me to be secretary of state to the united states. There were candidates talking amid all that applause from the crowd. It seem so much more ak moaacrimonious last night . Stakes areway, the higher. Obviously Bernie Sanders is thinking that tuesdays primary forew york could be the end him, definitely the end by the end of this month. The Clinton Campaign is talking how hell run out of real estate by the end of this month in terms of the number of designates he would need to catch up for her. The other element for secretary theyre just sick of each other. This has gone longer than her team anticipated. Outraced her, dogged her. He is not going to quit. That,t her argument is you know, mathematically he just cant get the nomination, even the momentum. And you can see also from the democratic perspective, it this, supposed to be like because its supposed to be a contrast with the republicans. Too much of a reminder of what the republicans are doing, as far as some democrats, in new york but for some. Its almost like there are two races. Delegates, race for which Bernie Sanders is losing and hillary is winning and almost certainly will win. But theres this other race them, about how far left he could push her. Every time she moved a little seemed to celebrate and get the crowd going and say, look, see, i did that, she said 15 an hour instead of 12 that she used to say before. When asked about the living wills, she said, yes, you should break up the bank. These are positions that i dont when shelary clinton, started this race, expected to be taking. Its not that she wouldnt be came true. Ey but shes created a very modulated campaign so far. Ask you about this minimum wage thing, because, you know, he said he wants it 15. 12, a step at go is a time. Does that illustrate the difference between his idealism her prag pa tism pragmatism . Absolutely. Shes looking at the art of the possible, and he is sort of totally consumed by what the world should be. And perhaps not is. And thats always been the sort of knock on her, the clinton brand. Theyre for incrementalism. Unapologizapologetic about that. To now try to remake herself into something different, that is a contrast of clinton brand. It can be perceived as a bit of a stretch. Todays a reflection of Democrat Party that thats what she has to get to. She doesnt have a choice in the matter. Got to accommodate a party that is very different today than it was when bill in 92. Ran, you know, ed, is there any sign that Bernie Sanders is expanding his he basically the same place hes been all along . No. It seems to be sticking to where its been. I think they had some hope in new york, given that two years and there was a primary governors race there and a liberal opponent challenged the sitting governor, andrew cuomo and there was a belief that he could at least hit the 35 or so that she got. But if you look at poll after poll, he hasnt really moved the shes likely to get this race with at least 60 support. He also addressed during the debate he had this interesting retort about the conservative showt, which was stunning to was some democrats, who believed that he was just absolutely walking away from the idea of wooing africanamerican voters, in new york or anywhere else, by theissing this massacre in south as, you know, this problem of conservatism when thats not necessarily true among democrats. Odd thing to say. A problem for bernie from the beginning this is a guy who marched, who fought for civil rights as a college kid in who came to washington, marched with dr. King. And yet every step of the way, this whole campaign, when he has had to reach out to not the vermont people hes used to rest of the, the democratic party, he stumbles like this. He just hasnt been able to make transition. One of the surprising moments came on the subject of the middle east, of israel, a state that issue is probably more important than anywhere else. Bernie sanders said that hillary enough tosnt done support the palestinians. I read secretary clintons apac. Ent speech before i heard virtually no discussion at all about the needs of the people, almost none in that speech. Im the person who held the meetings between the president of the palestinian minister and the prime of israel. Three long meetings. On i was absolutely focused what was fair and right for the palestinians. Foro is that a risky thing Bernie Sanders to do in new york . Speaking of how politics have party, imaginer dropping ed koch and pat debaten back into that last night. They would be shocked about whats happened to the politics state. R party and their the fact is that what bernie did last night wasnt that risky. Not going to do that well with Jewish Voters who are most passionate about israel. Either, a, republicans or b, voting for Hillary Clinton. What he is doing is speaking to of progressives i guessmuch more even handed is the phrase when it comes to looking at israel. Speak to how politics have changed. Is it risky for him . Really, given where the party is now. Remember when she ran for the senate . For having metd with and i think embraced the wife of Yasser Arafat when she visiting the united states. Six years ago. Right. And she had to sort of from theherself palestinians. To now be told shes not doing it must have been such a circle of life moment for someone who began a career in new york and is hoping to solidify her career by going to new york. Left to rome. Ers what was the political thinking there . Of course if theres a gomary on tuesday, you would to rome too. Actually, senator sanders got an justation he said he couldnt pass up, which was to participate in a conference in issues. T dealt with looks like a think tank kind of discussion, about the issues he cares so much about, the morality of our economy and what we should do as a society, as a world, a globe. Took his entire family, his grandchildren, and he went there. Where secretary clinton went . She went to california. Why . Shes raising money and spending likewith hollywood types George Collin and his wife clooney and his wife. Contesting ahead to the in june, in california. Theyll return to new york but each of them took a break. Well, ten months into his campaign for president , donald preoccupiedcome with the republican partiess rules for choosing its delegates buthe National Convention hes getting no sympathy from ted cruz or the Partys National chairman. Millions of votes more but i also have hundreds of delegates more. Thats not the same thing to me. I think the vote is the thing that you count. Right . [cheering] the vote i know the rules very well. But i know that its stacked against me by the establishment. Anyone who knows anything about washington knows that the establishment is not rooting for me. But the rules are simple. The way you get elected is that a majority of the delegates in election. Empoweredegates are by the voters. But the delegates on the floor choose the nominee of the party, after being empowered by the voters. This is a very normal system using for many years. So, ed, two questions. First of all, does donald trump have a point . And secondly, why the public it . Laining about well, i think, you know, hes making a political point in keep his base motivated in the few states that remain. And to keep his supporters motivated in the states that already voted, urging them to turn out to their delegate processes, if theyre allowed to show up. You know, he i had a senior todayican Party Official describe it this way, and i think its a very good way to frame it. As if he is the owner of an nfl Expansion Team who is complaining about, you know, how field goals are kicked. Ha ha of and accusing the league conspiring against his team to lose. No. You just learn the rules of the game, youll understand theyre not actually there to conspire against you. Its just the way it is. The colorado situation hes been complaining about is democratice most process very quickly, what is that . What happened . They use a convention, last that is the culmination of four, five months meetings, district wheregs, county meetings, thousands of republicans came the 34 peopleck who will represent them in cleveland at the convention. Messiestrobably the and somewhat romantic version of in thisy you can find country. Its just that its not a primary caucus where someone us whot there and tell won. And they had made the change last year that colorado had. A actually became quite story, that they had gone from a caucus to a convention. Wellknown. I think trump, pete, is also playing a psychological game here. Starting to set up what is effectively going to be a the groupampaign on of unbound delegates, the folks corons Conventions Convention basically political free agents. This is a start of a campaign for them, for trump to say im most delegateshe and votes. I might be short hoff a majority but of a majority but you me this. Y i think he is setting that up by what hes doing right now. This, of the ironies of though, for those inside the Republican Party is that the woo, he needs to win, to to win over, theyre part of the party. Theyre part of the they are the party. Theyre the infrastructure. So by doing what ed is saying, which is the art of the deal of base,ating with your isnt going to help you in the same way that it would if you stiffarming the r. N. C. Is not the way to go. I think its becoming clear that trump may just have one this, on the first ballot. He only has one shot. Theres two delegate fights going on right now. What happened in colorado, which is actually choosing delegates who they willose support at the convention. Then theres a separate fight of choosing delegates to support donald trump on probably just the first ballot, and cruz has been incredibly effective and other Party Establishments have incredibly effective of seeding that protrump pool with antitrump people. So if trump is not able to lock them up on the first ballot, very eager tore run away from him. It was just stunning this week to see his new senior advisory tell me, look, its irrelevant who is the new trumps new senior advisory. The fact that ted cruz is packing these delegate spots supporters who would switch on a later ballot is irrelevant, we do get to a later round, he sort of surmised, were screwed. Ha a i want to ask you about the piece you wrote about ted cruz. Is ted cruz becoming more mainstream . Hillary clinton is moving more to the left. To thecruz moving more center . Hes certainly singing a different song. Whether it will be successful is much an open question. Hes not a very talented or tested politician in appealing middle. This is a guy whose entire brand is always going to the right on every question. And, you know, if you compare, though, what he was doing in iowa, which was talking every who aret churches pressed by gay people coming and whatg to get married, to hes saying now, every time hes interviewed, he talked about raising wages, getting people back to work, manufacturing hes hes speaking as if a democrat now. Why . Because hes trying to convince his party in the shortterm that he can actually carry this in the general election. Part, at, for the most least the elected part of his party, doesnt like him at all, is e he ha ha because his career has been based on basically stepping on to pushof his own party himself ahead. And so he has to convince them and he has to convince the rank file that hes not just far right ted, that he can actual challenge for Hillary Clinton. Speaking of votes, tell me arithmetic. Ump how does winning new york change the future path for donald trump . So there are 95 delegates up for grabs tuesday night in new york. You win hanning if a chunk if you win statewide and in eacha chunk congressional district. State does it one of a few ways. In new york, its essentially if than 50 , you get them all. It probably dont, goes to a 21 split between trump and somebody else. A few districts that are unlikely to be 50 plus for donald trump. And some of the ones right in the city. They might go to john kasich most likely. 95 probably. Et if thats the case, he needs to wininue to do well and overwhelmingly or, you know, super majorities, in pennsylvania later in the month, maryland, rhode island, connecticut. Him, dontk good for they . Good his brand of republican those places. L in ted cruz is a hes a to texas. Ve and the challenge for trump counts every delegate now, so you take pennsylvania, for example, there are a handful statewidees available but most of them are unbound. Rhode island, its more proportionally done. All inside baseball, pete. But what it adds up to is every structureits unique of delegates and for the ones where trump looks to be the strongest, very few of them are winner take all, meaning even in states where he wins, hes not get every single delegate. Thats the irony of cruzs sort of antiestablishment message. He may rail against the washington establishment but what this process is beginning he has wooedthat and won over the political establishment in places like springs, topeka, kansas, augusta, georgia. File were going to stuff those delegate spots with vote for him. Ld alexis, is it looking like donald trump will win the ballot . On on the first oh, i think its not possible to even exactly say that right now. Know that right now . So many of these important big states to go. Now . Is he a little over 700, you know. Yeah. Toand hes got a long way go. The other thing to take into account, because of these getsnd delegates, if he within 20, 30, 40, he doesnt have to hit that number exactly, point hes going to be threatening the whole party, if you dont put me in this position, im walking and take all my people and you will lose the general election. Compelling. Pretty paul ryan invoked the words of civil war general tecumseh sherman, who famously said, i will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected. That he absolutely, positively does not want to president andidate for at a contested convention. I simply believe that if you the nominee for our party, to be the president , you it. Ld actually run for i chose not to do this. Therefore, i should not be period, end of story. But his effort to end the story was complicated by this video, released by the speakers office, challenging america to come together. Lets have a battle of ideas. Lets have a contest of whose ideas are better and why our are better. So, jonathan, ryan also had a News Conference to talk about east. Ip to the middle and this sort of reminds me of the groucho marx line, who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes . [laughter] there are similarities there. Hewas striking to me that once again said he is not running, not via a press release of paper but instead, in front of the cameras with four flags behind him. Not want to run. What he does want to do, pete, is establish himself as a sort to trump. He wabs to be wants to be somebody carrying a dif