Transcripts For KQED Pope Francis - The Sinner 20160708 : co

Transcripts For KQED Pope Francis - The Sinner 20160708

speaking spanish female translator he also has a dark past, and he will have to answer for that at the end of the world. narrator who is Jorge Mario Bergoglio . How did the man who was loved and loathed by his fellow jesuits in argentina become pope . And can he revolutionize the Roman Catholic church . male 3 Francis Bergoglio says, the church is falling down. God is sending me to repair the church. male 4 there has been just a growing confusion about what the church really teaches. female 3 the big issue, the one that hes not really got a handle on yet, and that is the issue of women in the church. male 5 his head is like game of thrones, in a good way. speaking in Foreign Language cheering narrator from the moment he stepped out on the balcony of st. Peters, pope francis set a very different tone for his papacy. In just two years, he has put catholicism back on the map as a faith that has something to offer a troubled world. Hes tackling big issues head on, accountability at the vatican bank, reform of the roman curia, and is driving a new vision of a church for the poor and marginalized. But can the man with a reputation as a divisive hardliner hold the Roman Catholic Church Together and revolutionize it at the same time . Jorge bergoglio grew up in this home, in the middle class flores district of buenos aires. Born in 1936 to italian immigrants, he was the eldest of five. He attributes his deep faith to his grandmother, rosa. elisabetta it was very, very important, the presence of the nonna rosa. A very strong woman, very catholic woman. All this family life, the mother, the father, this example of a family that would go all together to the church. whimsical music narrator it was in this confessional, at his local church in flores, that the 19yearold jorge experienced a spiritual awakening that changed his life. elisabetta because he felt the call from god. He felt that god chose him. His mother, she would hope for, my son, my first son to be a doctor. So, she was very disappointed. narrator father Andres Swinnen joined the jesuits at the same time as jorge, and they have remained friends ever since. speaking spanish male translator we entered before the second vatican council. Everything was uniform in the church. We were very good friends with bergoglio, and we made mischief together. We had the same vision, of course. narrator a lifelong friend and mentor of bergoglio, who taught him at the seminary in villa devoto in buenos aires, is father juan carlos scannone. speaking spanish male translator bergoglio was my student, he was very good, but not among the very best. narrator as a young student, jorge fell ill, and almost died from pneumonia. male translator a very severe pneumonia. They had to operate on him and remove a piece of his lung. Thats why, since then, he speaks quite softly. narrator in the 1960s, pope john xxiii introduced changes to modernize a church that was out of touch with the world. But the implications of these reforms in farflung places like argentina was difficult to grasp. guitar music speaking spanish male translator suddenly, it was as if the council had opened windows, and air came in. For many, that was disorientating. narrator it was a time of the cold war. Marxism was causing political instability in povertystricken latin america, and was also influencing the church. speaking spanish jesuit identity was changing, with some priests moving into small experimental communities among the poor. There was a new approach to training the young students, which addressed the problems of poverty and social injustice, as well as spiritual matters. father michael there was a Third World Movement of priests going on. And these were very badly looked upon by the military. An exjesuit that had been working with me became a guerrilla and was killed. narrator the catholic hierarchy supported regimes in latin america that opposed communism. In argentina, the state was particularly nervous of priests meddling in politics. In 1973, at the age of just 36, Jorge Bergoglio was elected provincial of an order that was in disarray. He quickly set about depoliticizing the jesuits, refocusing them on a more spiritual path. paul he was very conservative and traditionalist. Got rid of all the progressive theology. He banned books on liberation theology from the library. He reinstituted a lot of old liturgical practices. narrator bergoglio began to roll back on reforms he believed were politically driven, rather than based on the gospel. Against opposition from more liberal jesuits, he started closing small communities, and insisted on a more traditional formation for the students. Many jesuits supported his reforms. speaking spanish male translator he began to put the problems in order. He did a good job. Of course, he was a very young provincial. That was part of the difficulty he had. He handled himself with a lot of authority. Sometimes that was problematic. father michael its very rare that a man should be named provincial when hes in his thirties. He suddenly had to take care of the whole province. He was very much a leader, always, among the jesuits. elisabetta when he became provincial, there were almost no vocations, and after six years, there were, so you could also say that he saved the order. narrator amid political chaos, a military junta took power in argentina in 1976, with full support from the catholic hierarchy. The new regime immediately began to suppress and arrest subversive elements. dramatic music father michael it was an absolute mess. We were all very promilitary at first. I remember very clearly that we were thrilled that the military should have taken over. But then the disappearing started, and that was terrible. narrator the catholic hierarchy in argentina was more conservative than in other latin american countries. It was accused of collaborating with the military junta, led by Jorge Rafael Videla and emilio massera. speaking spanish male translator in argentina, the military and the Catholic Church were inextricably linked. And like the great majority of the leaders in the Catholic Church, he believed that the dictatorship would bring order to the country in the face of so many subversives. speaking spanish male translator the bishops and bergoglio also believed that priests who lived among the people, in the slums, dissolved the jesuit identity, broke with authority, and gave a bad example to the rest of argentinean society. male translator when the military took over in 1976, everything related to liberation theology was seen as communist, and marxist. I was labeled marxist, which i never was. narrator for bergoglio, the priests work with the poor had to be rooted in the gospel, not in any political ideology. speaking spanish male translator he was a very strict person, with ideas about pastoral work at that time that i would consider today to be quite conservative. Pastoral work with the people that didnt address the root causes of their social problems. male 7 there were many priests in the whole of latin america who believed that it was legitimate to be a terrorist. And the possibilities open to him seemed to be either you renounce Political Action largely, or going, if you want, with the hardliners who were into militant opposition. And i think he thought that the second option was very dangerous, and he tended, therefore, to go to a much more spiritual understanding of solidarity with the poor. guitar music narrator two of the more radical jesuits, Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics, who were in conflict with bergoglio over his hardline reforms, continued to live in the slums in buenos aires. speaking in spanish male translator the problem was they were under threat. Bergoglio knew from the source that they were to be kidnapped. michael he told them to leave that community, and they said no. And so, what bergoglio said to them is, you have two alternatives. I either have to kick you out of the society, or you can ask to leave. speaking spanish narrator yorios sister, graciela, believes that bergoglio is responsible for what happened to her brother. speaking spanish female translator at a certain time, he pressured them to leave the slums. He put them in a situation where they were completely unprotected. He took away their licenses to say mass. He threw them out of the jesuits and left them without the protection of other bishops. narrator in may, 1976, the two jesuits were kidnapped by the military, taken to this detention center, and interrogated and tortured for five months. male translator when they disappeared, bergoglio was informing me on an ongoing basis about everything he was doing, initially, to find out who had detained them. father michael i imagine, a man in his position must have had a terribly difficult time to save his people, and at the same time not make too many ripples with the government that would only make things worse. narrator then, a month after the kidnapping, five palatines from the irish parish of Saint Patricks in buenos aires were murdered and denounced as communists. Bergoglio had been spiritual director to one of the priests. speaking spanish translator i felt like someone in a warzone with people falling all around me. dramatic music it was a time of panic. Anything could happen. Some of my students died. narrator believing his work was becoming too dangerous, bergoglio sent a reluctant father petty out of harms way, to cordoba. father michael years afterwards, i realized that the real reason that he had was to save my life. He knew the inside story on lots of things. At the same time, he was trying to protect the jesuits. narrator bergoglio had meetings with the dictators videla and massera to persuade them to release his two priests who had been kidnapped. father michael he went to massera, he didnt even call him your excellency or anything like that, he said, now, massera, if you dont let those two out, the bishops conference is going to speak out strongly against you. Massera let them out. speaking in spanish male translator when they released them, they both immediately declared that they felt abandoned by their superior, who was bergoglio. They wrote a letter to the superior of the jesuits to say they were convinced that their superior not only left them unprotected, but gave the Armed Forces Information so that they would be detained and disappeared. female translator and this is the letter that orlando wrote to father mouro in rome. When you finish reading this letter, youre left with a very strong impression that bergoglio turned them in. male translator i dont think bergoglio put them in danger. At that time, everyone was in danger. Father yorio took me to the place where he was tortured, and he told me that the questions they asked me were things that only my superior knew about. speaking spanish i believe thats not true. Certainly, the military had the phones tapped. They certainly did suffer, but i dont think that bergoglio had anything to do with that. Not at all. Above all because during that time, he was regularly telling me what he was trying to do for yorio. melancholic music paul yorio and jalics said Different Things as the years went by. Yorio was very fixed on his dislike of bergoglio, and when bergoglio was made a bishop, yorio left the country. He said, i cant be in a country where this mans a bishop. And he went to uruguay. He was never reconciled and he died in uruguay. But the other one, jalics, whos now living in a Retreat House in germany, he met bergoglio when he was archbishop, and an eyewitness told me that the two men fell upon each other and wept bitterly, and they then said mass together. narrator for years, Francisco Jalics maintained that bergoglio had denounced him to the military. However, a few days after Pope Franciss election, he issued statements retracting that and said that they are now reconciled. speaking spanish female translator that the reconciliation happened indicates that there was something that had to be reconciled. We are absolutely convinced and absolutely certain that francisco was pressurized. Its very difficult to see his rising popularity. But he also has a dark past and he will have to answer for that at the end of the world. male 8 bergoglios main mission was to protect his jesuits. In other countries in latin america, many jesuits were being killed. Was he in a position to do more than he did . Thats the question. He was not a bishop, so he didnt have the power of a bishop. The evidence tells that the ones who did more were killed. Not everybody is called to be a martyr. paul the opponents of bergoglio said, he betrayed them. My examination of the evidence is that he didnt actually betray them, but that he was arrogant and stubborn and reckless in the way that he locked horns with them. His pastoral relationship as their overseer broke down. That failure on his part has haunted him ever since. energetic music narrator bergoglios reputation among the more liberal jesuits went into further decline when the old jesuit salvador university, which he had handed over to a rightwing lay group, granted an honorary degree, in 1977, to the dictator, massera. father michael we were very angry about it, because we knew who massera was, of course. male translator the principle oppressor in argentina, admiral massera, the person who was responsible for kidnapping jalics and yorio. narrator in 1979, bergoglio was made rector of the jesuit seminary, giving him direct control over the students. This further angered the liberal priests, who were deeply concerned about his influence over the younger jesuits. Father Rafael Velasco was a student at the time. speaking spanish male translator his vision was marked by a very orthodox theology. Definitely european, very critical of liberation theology. He had a way of thinking that was very critical of voices within the jesuits that had a different way of seeing things. He was greatly admired among the jesuit students. In some cases there was a cult of personality around him. Some even referred to him as el, like god. father michael he was too much of a controversial figure for the young jesuits. I mean, some were absolutely prohim. He couldnt do anything wrong. narrator in 1986, bergoglios term as rector expired, and the new leadership introduced liberal reforms in the training of the students, against the wishes of bergoglio. This intensified divisions within the jesuits. dramatic music speaking spanish male translator bergoglio wanted to continue to mold the consciences of the younger jesuits. He wanted to continue to lead them. Theres something very unhealthy about this. This thirst for leadership that he has. elisabetta he was almost hated by some jesuits. That he was the ultraconservative, that he gave these two jesuits, yorio and jalics, to the militaries. That they didnt like, and this fact also of la universidad de salvador. paul he couldnt forget his old authority. He was so meddlesome that, eventually, they appealed for him to be expelled from the house. narrator the argentine province became paralyzed by a dispute between two visions of how the jesuits should be. One of these visions was embodied in the person of bergoglio. To resolve the situation, the new provincial sent bergoglio far away to cordoba. speaking spanish male translator there cant be many superiors of the jesuits who, when they finished their term of office, are sent straight away to an obscure parish, lost in the middle of argentina. paul cordoba was a place of exile, for him. A place of humility and of humiliation. He felt belittled and sidelined. father michael i always think that this is the great lesson he takes to the papacy. He cant bash into those who think differently from him. narrator with bergoglio gone, some students began to reevaluate all they had learned from their old master. speaking spanish male translator there were those who remained loyal to bergoglio, and those of us who began to take a critical view of many of the things that had bothered us at the time. I value many things about bergoglio, he taught me how to get close to god, and to relate to the people. There were other things i then had to unlearn. narrator as a jesuit, bergoglio had been trained to use the spiritual exercises of Saint Ignatius to analyze and examine his life, and to help him make better decisions. chanting male 9 i think he went through a bit of a tough time, a bit of a crisis. And he looked back upon what sort of a provincial hed been. A very young provincial, and he saw that he had been too authoritarian. And i think it was this crisis that made him, actually. He began to realize that he had to have a different approach to authority. I used to try to see him. Id go into the dining room and hed go out the other door. We thought he was mad. I remember thinking clearly that, because he wouldnt speak to anybody. father michael they must have done a lot of discerning there. Its not easy to change that sort of style, but he changed, and he changed when he was in cordoba. speaking spanish male translator to see his face in cordoba i said to myself, hes going through a dark night. So it was a difficult time in his life. A time of purification. cheerful music narrator after two years in the obscurity of cordoba, a lifeline was thrown to bergoglio by the archbishop of buenos aires, cardinal quarracino, a man he had impressed when he was provincial. elisabetta he was called to be auxiliary bishop of buenos aires by quarracino, and his life totally changed. narrator in 1992, a new chapter was about to begin in bergoglios life, as a bishop in the Largest Diocese in argentina. But not everyone believed he had the capacity to change. male translator i suppose there were some high up in the jesuits who wouldve said, thank god, now hes the churchs problem. epic music speaking italian narrator in just two years, the pope from the ends of the earth has gone beyond the wildest dreams of those who elected him. Hes turning the church and its message upside down by igniting a new vision, focused on the poor and excluded. But is his leadership also in danger of splitting the church . Can pope francis succeed today where he failed as provincial of the jesuits . Can he hold the Church Together and reform it at the same time . In 1992, by becoming bishop of buenos aires, many jesuits felt he had betrayed their tradition of not accepti

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