Because this is the week thats realized and internalized the fact that for as long as donald trump is president they will be beseeched. They recognize the russia investigation between whats going on with prosecutors and the multiple committees on the hill that are investigating this, that there is at least months, probably years of investigations. Rose and we conclude with a conversation with ben sasse, junior republican senator from nebraska. Its not good for the kids to be in this protected cacoon but certainly not good for a republican either. We need these kids to ultimately become the leaders of the country, and theyre going to go through Job Disruption when theyre 40 and 45 and 50 in ways never before in Human History, they will have to be resilient. Rose richard haass, mike allen and ben sasse, when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose President Trump is wrapping up his first overseas trip. Hes in sicily at the g7 summit. It is final stop of a foreign swing that has taken him to saudi arabia, israel, the vatican, a n. A. T. O. Meeting and the g7 summit. Joining me is richard haass, president of the council on foreign relations. His new book is called a in disarray American Foreign policy and the crisis of the old order. Welcome and thank you. Good to be back. Rose happy memorial day as well. Thank you, sir. Rose how would you assess this president s first foreign trip is this. I think the first half, okay. He would have done more, i think, to talk to the saudis and others more directly about the flaws in their own societies that in many ways have generated so much of the terrorism weve seen. But the first half to have the t because the israelis and saudis were thrilled he wasnt barack obama. Rose and they view themselves with a common enemy, iran. Exactly. First half of the trip. Not bad. The second half could not be more different, much more difficult going. Instead of we canaling him in the way the israelis and saudis did, the europeans were not inclined to welcome him in many ways because they much preferred barack obama, almost the mirror image of the middle east. Lots about this president are not what theyve come to expect of the United States or president s and his whole marion of confronting him. He went to saudi arabia, im not here to lecture you. Then he showed up in europe and lectured them so that didnt go down too well. Rose n. A. T. O. , he lectured a payment of the United Nations and makes a good point that president obama and other president s have made, those countries should contribute more. I guess the question has to be not what he said but how he said id. Both. If one adds up the totality of what they spend on defense, probably 180 billion. Not negligible. They dont have the same Global Responsibility as the United States so it need not be the exact same. Many give higher percentages of g. D. P. To foreign aid and Development Aid of sorts. But basically, youre right, even if you wanted to get them to do more, its not clear to me this is the way. Diplomacy is to persuade people to do what you want them to do. This seems hardly doing that. He showed up, backdrop calling n. A. T. O. Obsolete, those concerns, so had lowhanging fruit and he chose not to pick it. Rose i thought the idea he didnt strongly support article 5 especially when you consider all the nations in the spirit of article 5 came here at 9 11. Absolutely. Article 5, you know, an attack on one is an attack on all. It sends the message were all on equal footing, no distinctions. But America First sends a very different signal. It says well put ourselves before we put others. So he needed to use the trip to reassure and say we see your security intrinsically tied to our own, every bit as important as our own and, again, he missed the opportunity to do it. Ironically enough, standing under the twisted piece of metal from 9 11 which was the only time in its history that n. A. T. O. Has actually put article 5 into play. So, again, it seems to me he just missed a fairly easy opportunity to send the right signal. Rose how about the g7 . Well, its ironic. G7 was created decades ago to forge all sorts of cooperation not just across the atlantic but globally, bringing the japanese in, to deal with global challenges, one of which is trade. This administration has walked back from that many years. And climate change, big question as to whether mr. Trump and colleagues will come out on that. Other things like Nuclear Proliferation and terrorism, which are Old Fashioned sort of guns and bullets National Security questions, its not clear whether there is going to be a meeting of the minds, not just in sicily but more broadly. Rose do the europeans and members of g7 come away with the fact that they dont really trust this president . I think the honest answer to your question is exactly that. First of all, we havent been through a real crisis together. They are very uneasy with his policies toward russia. Very uneasy about some of the misuse and mishandling of intelligence. They look at whats going on across the ocean and just dont recognize it. They dont recognize the role of family. They dont see a lot of names and faces they would have expected to see in republican administrations. Youre hearing things from him theyve never heard from an american president before. So they dont feel comfortable with him. I think some dont trust him. The big irony of all this, donald trump has been against the e. U. , favors brexit, signaled Marine Le Pen he favored her in the election, he may do more than any other american president in decades to forge solidarity in europe. Rose against the United States . To go their own way, to promote their own rose to create true europe. To consolidate more there and promote global arrangements to their liking whether in climate, trade, refugee issues, what have you, so we face the situation where well end up with less influence in europe and less partnering with the europeans. Rose back to saudi arabia. Did he, having said all the things he did during the campaign, in a sense create a better understanding that he and his administration was not antimuslim . Yes, i think he clearly improved the standing there and thats where the trip worked well. Also you invest in relationships. First trip over there, early meetings, so he cut both the irlzies and the saudis criminal slack. He didnt lecture the israelis publicly on settlements, he didnt lecture the saudis about women driving and other issues. He essentially said i want to work with you against what we all see is the principal threat which the iran, and i thought that was all fine up to the point that, with the saudis, i dont think he did enough to address the real internal threat they and others not only face but are generating by the flaws in their own societies and i think, with the israelis, at some point there has to be not necessarily publicly but privately Straight Talk about what it will take to advance the prospect of peace between israelis and palestinians. Rose there is some believe a grand strategy to get the saudis and the iranians i mean the saudis and israel together against the iranians and produce some kind of relationship between the arab countries and israel who, therefore, will work with the palestinians and the israelis and all infused by the idea of doing something no one has ever been able to do by finding peace between israel and the palestinians. There is some of that out there. The problem is this stark opposition with iran, and were seeing it played out in many places including yemen and syria, this could lead to real escalation. The saudi deputy crown prince the other day talked about war between iran and saudi arabia and saying we the saudis are going to take the war to iran, not wait for you to bring the war to us. Weve got to be careful about how much encouragement we give the saudis that no matter what well be there if they take a provocative view or approach toward iran. The peace process, its up to the israelis and palestinians. They have to be willing and able, both, to make the big compromises for peace. So the arabs and saudis can help create the context but they cant solve the split between ma mas and the palestinians on the west bank. An Israeli Government not configured for peace, it would fall apart before that. So this topdown or insideout approach, i believe people are overestimating what it can accomplish. Rose finally, looking at this president s Foreign Policy, has he drawn us closer to china because of what happened in the summit and the feeling that they had in florida dr. The meeting they had in florida and looking at the threat of north korea . The short answer is yes. During the campaign, there was a lot of criticism of china, a lot of suggestion that, you know, we were going to be closing up to russia but had real problems with china. I think the administration got religion in the sense that north korea has emerged as the most significant National Security threat. They know that the best way to influence things in pyongyang is through beijing through working with the chinese, so theres actually been discipline of a north korea first approach with china. Were not picking a trade war with china. Were not criticizing them on human rights or the excesses of anticorruption drive. We have been low key about our differences in the south china sea. Rose we had a Little Exchange in getting too close in terms of planes. Again but, overall, i would say theres been some discipline. Its real north korea first approach, and i think the administrations realize that, absent chinas active participation and really using the leverage with north korea, were left either with a military option or essentially living with a north korea that can put Nuclear Warheads on missiles that can reach us, those options are each in their own way so unattractive i think the administration is prepared to take a run at a diplomatic option with chinas explicit report. Rose thenal . Back to the existential choices, either using military force and using combination of deterrencedefense of a north Korea Nuclear arsenal. Its hard to convince a lot of americans nuclear is the right option. Rose it may with p be the only option. The question is whether the least bad option or necessary option. Rose if diplomacy fails and they get closer to the capacity of delivering a nuclear warhead. Then we have to make an existential decision whether we were prepared to live with a north korea with Nuclear Weapons or we dont trust it and run all the risk of starting a war with all that could mean. You and riboth old enough to know the destruction of the first korean war. So i dont know how we would come out of that. Nobody wants that. We, the south koreans, the chinese dont want it, so the question is will this motivate china not to allow things to drift which has been chinese policy for a couple of decades. This administration deserves credit for signaling the chinese. It cant be business as usual. Rose and my impression is xi jinping had a lot of opportunity to tell the president what he thought and why and the long history of china and how they view the world. Again, deploimsy with china, deploimsy with israelis and saudis the other day. The one place there wasnt near as much as thrsked be was with our democratic allies in europe. Go figure. Rose thank you for coming. I know you have a tight schedule. Good to see you. Rose richard haass, from the council on foreign relations, his book a world in disarray. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Rose President Trump returns to washington saturday night, that gives him a week to prepare for the return of congress and coming battles over healthcare, tax reform and the budget and looming over all that the investigations into russia and the 2016 elections. Joining me now is mike allen, cofounder of axios and the editor of the axios am newsletter. Mike, thank you for coming, happy memorial day weekend. And to you and yours. Its an honor and treat to be here. Rose Jared Kushner, no one closer to the president. He and his wife ivanka trump. He is said to be at the center of the investigation without any question or anybody suggesting or knowing that he is in any way having done something. His lawyers have said he will come forward and explain everything about their meetings hes had with russians, but this is a critical point for someone so close to the president to be so central to an investigation. Perfectly put, charlie. Just to set the scene here, over the months weve called Jared Kushner the Supreme Court because hes the last word. You talk to people both inside the west wing, c. E. O. S that come in there, and we say if you want to sell an idea to the president , if you want to convince the president of something, who do you talk to . Universally they say Jared Kushner, who is very gifted at moving the president in particular ways. We are told if he wants to get the president s attention on something, hell get the right people on the president s calendar to talk to him. He has campaigns he doesnt even know are campaigns and has his hands in everything, such a big portfolio, both foreign and domestic. So now, to have the the f. B. I. Interested in him as part of this russia investigation now, charlie, as you suggested accurately in your top, hes not a subject, hes not a target, whatever words you often hear in conjunction with an investigation. Its much more nuanced and removed than that. During the transition, he had meetings with rungs that they are interested in finding out about, so its natural that he would be talked to. Last week when there was a story in the the Washington Post at the end of the week that said a white house official, someone close to the president was of interest to investigators, people had a pretty good idea. So this news didnt come as a shock. But, charlie, you outlined that calendar that they have ahead, and this investigation is really a pall. Anytime the f. B. I. Is interested in something, to do the interviews, prep the interviews, federal investigations dont tend to stop where they start, so it just makes it harder for this white house, which already was struggling to keep its head above water. Rose but there is also this he did not include in his security clearance information the fact that he had met with the russians. Later it was amended to say hes happy to amend it and fill in all the information, but it was not there at the beginning, nor was it there from Michael Flynn when he offered up the information for his own security clearance. No, thats right, charlie. And fascinatingly enough, a key lawyer for ivanka trump and Jared Kushner is jamie gay relic who your viewers know from the clinton years in private practice and she put out a statement saying, if contacted by investigators, Jared Kushner will be cooperative. So the reason that that wording is so key is that if suggests to you that he has not heard from him, that theres not been any document from them or requests for documents. So thats all a movie thats still to play out. Rose there is also the question of steve bannon, who had lost some, it is said, influence in the white house to, in fact, ivanka trump and her husband Jared Kushner. It is said now hes back because there is beginning to be in the white house a kind of war room mentality, and how do we know and how do we resist what we know are going to be these extended investigations . No, charlie, thats right, and this is a sea change for the sweathouse and a very important moment for your viewers to tune in and soak in and that is a week the white house realized and internalized that as long as donald trump is president they been besieged. They recognize the russia investigation between whats going on with prosecutors and the multiple committees on the hill investigating this this that there is at least months, probably years of investigations. Separately, they recognize, in part, because of their own doing of inflieming the bureaucracy, in part because the permanent government here in washington was never going to be aligned with the president who won running against the president and they loved the fact that he was showing up washington. So now that hes here, though, the price he pays for that is constant leaks and part of the administration that dont want him. So between the media criticism, between the investigations, between the bureaucracy, what the trump people like to call the deep state, both left and right like to use that term because it sounds spooky but it just means the permanent government, among those, they will be fighting these battles for four or eight years, so theyre creating a clintonstyle war room. So scandal machinery, charlie which your viewers will remember, is back, and this white house is trying to learn lessons from both the Reagan White House after the iran contra revelations and the Clinton White house which had plenty of opportunity and experience with scandals. One of the big lessons, charlie, is to try to wall off whats going on, that if you put one person or one office in charge of the response, the strategy, the idea is that you can keep every aide in the west wing from being sucked into it, that other people will be allowed to do their day job, will be allowed to serve the president in other ways, will be allowed to pursue the agenda. So well have a war room within the white house that will take in research, coms, rapid response, legal, and the idea is that will be both the repository and