Welcome to the program. We begin tonight with north koreas missile test and the ongoing global cybersoo attack. Joining me are david sanger and ben rhodes. The North Koreans are just stepping up their Testing Program an theyre stepping it up in the most interesting way. So their biggest concern is not doing something that would prompt President Trump to take some kind of preem tiff military action or something that would so horrify the International Community that it would actually unify everybody on the saks. And that would be dropping the icbm just off the west coast or something. So instead theyre doing a series of tests that are going high up into space. This one went 2,000 kilometers, 1400 miles. And then its doing a very short parabel and coming down it landed 400 or so miles from the north korean coast. So that replicates the reentry of an icbm. So theyre putting together the component pieces of what it would take to demonstrate that they could send a missile much further, without actually prompting that kind of military response. We continue this evening with dr. Rock positano who was a friend of joe dimaggio. His new book is called dinner with dimaggio, memories of an american hero. Heres a man who was unbelievably successful in his career. You know, created many things, created opportunities for people, yet at the end of the day he had heart, he had empathy. He cared about other people. He cared about children. That was his passion. The joe dimaggio Childrens Hospital in florida is one example where joe always said no, doc, no kid should ever not get medical treatment because their family cant afford it. Which is the whole mantra of that, which is really one of the best testimonies of dimaggio, the Childrens Hospital is one of them. The fact that he was so loving an doating to his family. He absolutely adored his granddaughters and great granddaughters, he really did. He had a tremendous amount of love, a teks and concern affection and concern for them in that respect swroa was able to show that as iconic as he was, at the end of the day what mattered to him most were the things that mattered to most of us. Rose finally an appreciation of brad grey, the former c. E. O. Of paramount pictures. How do we tell Great Stories . How do we tell entertaining stories . How do we try to make this a great chapter so that when i look back at this period of my life or this period of paramount, i can at least look back and say oh yeah, they did some great work at that time. Rose cyberattacks and north korea, din we are joe dimaggio and remembering brad grey when we continue. Funding for charlie rose is provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we begin this evening with north koreas Missile Launch and the ongoing global cyberattack. On sunday north korea conducted its 7th missile test this year. Analysts are describing it as pyongyangs most successful launch yet, the countrys state news agency described the missile as capable of carrying a large size heavy Nuclear Warhead. They also reported a key United States military base in the pacific is now within reach, a massive global cyberattack also made headline this weekend, major disruptions originated in europe on friday and migrated to asia monday morning. Malware has been loaded in 200,000 computers across 150 countries. Russian president putin has blamed the united staights for the attack. The software implicated in the attack was originally developed by the National Security agency but was later stolen and released by a group of hackers. Joining me from washington is ben rhodes, he serves as the deputy National Security advisor for president obama. Also david sanger, the National Security correspondent for the new york times. Im pleased to have both of them on this program. David sanger are you writing about both subjects tomorrow morning, i assume, in the new york times. Lets start first with the north Korean Missile and exactly what they know about that and how far have they come. And how serious is their success in Getting Better and better with each test. Well, i think the most important thing, charlie, to know here is that while President Trump has said that hes getting the cooperation of the chinese, that the chinese are putting new pressures on the North Koreans, the North Koreans are just stepping up their Testing Program. And theyre stepping it up in the most interesting way. So the, their biggest concern is not doing something that would prompt President Trump to take some kind of preem tiff military action. Or something that would so horrify the International Community that it would actually union fie everybody on the sanctions. And that would be dropping the icbm just off of the west coast or something. So instead, theyre doing a series of tests that are going high up into space. This one went 2,000 kilometers, 1400 miles. And then its doing a very sharp parabala and coming down, it landed only 400 or so miles from the north korean coast. So that replicates the reentry of an icbm. So theyre putting together the component pieces of what it would take to demonstrate that they could send a missile much further without actually prompting that kind of military response. What is interesting, also here is what didnt happen. We reported about a month and a half or two months ago the United States has had a very active cyberand Electronic Warfare program that you and i have discussed on this show before that president obama accelerated starting in early 2014. It worked pretty well last year when they had a lot of failed mosadon tests and we think at least some of those were because of the program. There could have been other causes as well, bad weld, bad luck, bad parts. But their most recent test using a different Engine Technology seemed to have gone off pretty well. And this one this weekend appears to have been pretty successful. Rose ben rhodes, how concerned should we be . Well, i think we should be very concerned, charlie. Because as you said with each test they get better at this technology. And of course the principal threat to the United States beyond our allies south korea and japan is if they can miniaturize a warhead, a Nuclear Warhead to put on an icbm that can reach the United States. And with each of these tests they get better. What concerns me is we have seen a rhetorical escalation out of this administration which often provokes north korea to take actions like this. But that rhetorical escalation doesnt yet appear to be accompanied by a strategy that has been put in place to try to achieve some kind of to the north Korean Program. So we have this steady escalation of the threat and its not clear what we are going to do to respond to it. Rose what was the Obama Administrations strategy. I think, charlie, what we would do, building on what we had already done, so sure, we would work with china to try to enforce more stringent sanctions. We would also deploy theater missile defense, the thad system going to south korea, but ultimately you have to put the brakes on this program. Because you dont want to get to the point where they have that icbm technology and ability to minimize a warhead. The diplomatic play that you want is to squeeze north korea through the applications of sanctions to get their attention you and then negotiate some type of freeze in the north Korean Program so they are not advancing the nuclear program, theyre not advancing their missile capability. Then you have some period of time where you can address denuclearization. Do i not think there is any indication from kim junkun that any pressure from china or anyone else is going to caution him to give up his Nuclear Weapons up front. We have to fine a way to pause the program. Tell me where you think the trump strategy is. Well, i dont think right now the trump strategy is all that different from president obamas strategy or president bushs before that. Always there has been this reliance on the chinese, as has been indicated to put more pressure on. The deficit is the chinese have their limits. And theyve got two major limits. The first one is they dont want to put on so much pressure that it could trigger a north korean collapse that would result in south korea and their fear is our troops or our intelligence capabilities right up on their borders, so while they will certainly do more of a squeeze, an i think they have in recent times, theres a limit to that. The second is, the chinese are interested in knowing what is the end state of north korea when are you all done with this process. Because the North Koreans at this point are pretty well convinced that they would be crazy to give up their Nuclear Weapons program. They look for example at libya which in 2003 gave up a nash ent program, one that was just components, nothing put together, nothing as advanced as the North Koreans have. And they believe that when qaddafi got in trouble, the United States and european allies and arab states all ganged up to help drive them from power. So their view is if he had not given up his Nuclear Weapons program, he might still be in power today. And they i dont think planned to give up theirs. I think the additional problem that we face right now in dealing with each of these elements is that while a freeze as been described would certainly keep the problem from getting worse, and might open the way to a negotiation of the kind that the Obama Administration did pretty successfully with iran. It also would freeze into place an existing considerably sized nuclear arsenal. And you have to ask yourself the question, are you willing to live with that arsenal if you dont get to the denuclearization that ben described. Rose ben, describe what the denuclearization means in your terms. Well, you know, over the longterm its been the pog of all the six pearts in the talks, japan, south korea, russia, china, the United States, other than north korea, of course, that north korea would have to give up its Nuclear Weapons capability. And like i said, we have to deal with the world as it is. And it does not mere that kim jung unis going to do that in the near term, i agree with david. That is why, i think, you have to anticipate the freeze so that were at least putting off the challenge of them being able to reach the United States with an icbm, with a potential Nuclear Warhead that can go on that, i think you accept that in perfect outcome to buy time to then explore what type of progress you can make in a negotiation. I also say just the iran example points to the fact that you do want to deal with these problems diplomatically before you tbet to a country having a Nuclear Weapon that is one of the reasons we did the iran deal is we did not want a replication of what we had in north korea in iran. How likely is it we will wake up and they already have everything they need to attack the United States . Well, there are some people in the Intelligence Community who argue that they already do. That just because they havent demonstrated their missile capability, and the reentry capability, doesnt mean they dont have it. Personally, i think that they probably have a good ways to go. I mean its one thing to put a Nuclear Warhead on a short range miss thail can reach south korea or japan. And the Intelligence Community assessment is that they already have that. When you try to do an icbm its much more difficult. These leave the atmosphere and have to reenter, theres tremendous heat, tremendous vibration it took the United States years to figure this technology out back in the 50s. And youve got to think it will take the North Koreans a fair bit an theyre not going to be confident they can do it until they actually test it. So on the one hand youve got people in the Intelligence Community saying just because they havent tested it, dun mean they cant do it on the other hand you have people saying look, weve got diplomatic space in the fact that we dont know and they dont know for sure that they can make this successful. And thats why bens idea of a freeze may well make some sense. But its not the kind of freeze we had with iran, as ben points out, iran didnt have Nuclear Weapons at the time. Now you know, the North Koreans are up, to debate but somewhere between 10 and 20. And you know, thats sort of looking the way pakistan looked ten years ago. Rose they got a lot of help from pakistan, didnt they . They did from aq chan, the back stand pakistani engineer who helped build pakistans program and then went into business for himself and sold a lot of designs for the North Koreans. Theyve gotten 1078 missile help to the iranians, given some missile help to the iranians along the way. They got help from the chinese early on. I dont think theyre getting help today. But basically at this point they have mastered the fundamentals of building a Nuclear Weapon. We just dont know if they mastered the fundamentals of shrinking one to fit inside one of those missile warheads. Rose ben, when were you at the National Security council, was there a profile of the north Korean Leader that suggested that he was a sain, rational actor . Well, the reality, charlie, is that we dont have a tremendous amount of insight into north korea. What we learned, though, over the course of the years that kim jung unwas in power, in some ways is he rational, he wants to protect his regime as david said, hes probably drawn lessons from things like libya that the Nuclear Capability is his ultimate ultimate insurance policy but what we also learn about him is he is highly resistant to external pressure particularly from china. There was some belief early on that he might be more controlled by china because he was inexperienced. We saw the opposite. We saw him ignore chinese pressure. So i do think its dangerous to put all of your eggs in one basket here with the chinese. I do not think that there is something they could do that could compel him to give up his Nuclear Weapons in the near term. In fact, hes defied china just as much as he defied the United States. I think we have to be cautious. I think is he rational, he wants to stay in power but genets impetious, young, he responds to perceived slights. He responds to rhetoric against north korea by escalating his behavior in these tests. Thats why i would be concerned about the type of rhetorical escalation we have seen because all it does is poke a hornets nest with someone we have seen respond by escalating his provocation. So charlie, this has been an area where i think President Trumps been on a prtee steep learning curve. I did some Foreign Policy interviews with him last year, with Maggie Haberman am he said to us definitively, the chinese can solve this problem. Then xi jinping went to visit him at maralago and came out saying mr. J stat me down and explained he doesnt have as much influence with the North Koreans as i thought, sort of like who knew, just like who knew health care was this complicated. And so i think he is now discovered just as ben suggests, that the chineses ability to pressure the north is not quite what it seemed. Now the chinese also do provide them with oil, and they could turn off that pipeline. Theyve never really been willing to do that for more than a couple of days. Rose theres also the question that goes to his profile as well. How willing is he to let his own people suffer in order to resist sanctions. And if he, thats one half of the question. The other half, you know, is there ever a level in which sanctions will cause so much pain in the country that they will turn against him or is his power just too strong for that to happen . Well, charlie, i mean yeah, i think hes shown that he doesnt much care about the suffering of his people. Hes willing to sink more and more resources into his nuclear and missile technology. At the same time though, what i would like to see is if we are able to get a freeze in place, if you are able to essentially put the pause b