Rose welcome to the programment we begin with a Health Care Debate in congress and talk to ezra klein of vox media. President trump has been going to republicans, the last couple of days, three or four days and in private the case he is making to them over and over and over again is if you dont vote for this, you will lose your seat, republicans will do poorly in the mid terms, this senator, he made this point that when president obama was selling the Affordable Care act in 2009 he came to them and he said if you vote for this, you may lose your seat and it will be worth it. And this is a real difference between what happened with the democrats in 09y and the republicans right now. The republicans did not spend a lot of time working with each other to come up with a vision for healthcare reform that they liked. Rose also this evening a conversation about the ak kaition that the obama add the accusation that the Obama Administration had bugged trump tower. We talk to Michael Morell, former acting direct are and Deputy Director of the cianess what the president said was that he and his associates were actually the targets of surveillance, that the surveillance was targeted on them. Thats what he said. And the president of the United States, personally approved it. Which is ridiculous. President s dont approve things like that. That is what he said. This collection based on the chairmans own words was not targeted at any u. S. Person, it was targeted at a Foreign National and there was u. S. Person information incidentally collected. Thats why that incidentally collected is so important. Rose and we conclude with author kati marton, her book is true believe he, stalins last american spy. He had given up a lucrative a promising career as a diplomat in the state department. He betrayed his country, and his own family didnt know that he was an agent. And he was a product of that time in washington, much like today, where people were searching for an answer to every problem and the problems were abundant. Rose ezra klein, Michael Morell and kati marton when we continue. Funding for charlie rose is provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia ws and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. We begin this evening with health care, House Republican leaders postponed a planned vote this afternoon on legislation to repeal and replace the Affordable Care act. President trump met with the House Conservative Coalition known as the Freedom Caucus earlier today but was unable to secure the groups votes. The House Republican conference is scheduled to meet this evening to discuss the plan ahead as we tape this program. A full house vote could come as early as tomorrow morning. Ezra klein of vox media joins me now. Im pleased to have him here. Help me understand why they are unable to put together a bill that will pass the house. Theyve got a fundamental problem which is that nobody really likes the underlying bill. I had a conversation last night with the democratic senator that i thought captured this well. Donald trump, President Trump has been going to republicans last couple of days, and in private the case he is making to them over and over and over again is if you dont vote for, this will you lose your seat, republicans will do poorly in the mid terms. And this senator, he made this point that when president obama was selling the Affordable Care act in 2009, he came to them and he said if you vote for this, you may lose your seat and it d this is a real dirchtion between what happened with the democrats in 09y and the republicans right now. The republicans did not spend a lot of time working with each other to come up with a vision for healthcare reform that they liked. They were all on the same page about repealing obamacare. They all wanted to do that. But they didnt really ever figure out what they wanted to do after that, what they wanted to do in terms of replacement. Let me interrupt you right there with one quick point. Did they fail to appreciate what the Affordable Care act mebt to their constituents in part . I think they did. I and i think they have also cocooned themselves. Look, the Affordable Care act is not by any means a perfect bill or a perfect structure but if the only information you get on it is within right wing media, you would have the impression of a law that is in a state of failure and collapse and terror. It is just not accurate. And its interesting. I did a piece recently where i went and read every single thing President Trump has said about health care since opening up this bill, since this bill was unveiled. And it is interesting because he has a vision of the Affordable Care act that is really, really dark and grim. Much more so than i think the reality would justify. And so i think that both he and many in his party, theyve not really believed that if you began to take that away people would suffer because they thought it was going so badly. But in fact you have 20 to 30 million depending how you want to count it relying on that bill for insurance and pulling shows that they like the coverage theyre getting. They like medicaid, they like the private sector coverage. And thats a hard thing to take away. I dont think they quite realized how hard it would be to offer something that was better. I will say one other quick thing which is that the Affordable Care acts vulnerability, the things people dont like about it is the deductibles are high, the premiums are high, not everyone is able to afford coverage. Republicans took on those criticisms. Donald trump said he would give you lower deductibles, more coverage. Mitch mcconnell said the same. The problem is the republican bill dont do that he they believe high deductible care is a good thing. Having not made that argument, having told people they would do the opposite, they are in a dangerous place where they have a bill that is at odds with what they promised. The gap between their rhetoric and the reality of their proposal is beginning to stare them in the face. Suppose the president and Mitch Mcconnell and had come to you and said you know a lot about this, is there a way out. I think its unlikely they will do that. Rose im sure they wont. I actually 24eu there would have been a way out for them. And i wrote about this. The health and Human Services secretary is a guy named tom price. And he is a republican congressman. And back in 2006 he partnered with a very liberal wisconsin congresswoman who is now in the snam, tammy baldwin. And they wrote a bill. And what this bill did was make it easy for individual states to build out their own healthcare programs. And it basically said that if you can create a program that we will vet it by experts. And if they say this will increase coverage and increase affordability well give you money to do it and a lot of government flexibility and let you take the medicaid money and spend it a different way. We will let every state create the program best for them, vermont can have single payor, illinois can have an obama like system, alabama something much more conservative. And i thought that that would actually have been a smart way to go on health care for, for donald trump to come in and say were going to have a federalist plan, were republicans who believe in handing control over to the states. You get to keep as a state all the obamacare money, you just have to come up with something, it can still be o ban obamacare, but if you can do better, and we believe you can, you can take that money and build Something Else fsm you build Something Better than the other states can adopt it later. There is a pln in the senate that has some of those features called cassidy colin, a republican senator from louisiana and republican senator from maine, it isnt exactly like i described but it has some of that within it. But they decided to go and build a plan that would be one size fits all in paul ryans office, do it very yikly, do it without really any input from outside stakeholders. And what they ended up with, nobody really liked because nobody is willing to walk the plank on. Rose was in the beginning the opposition to Affordable Care act more a case of the pan date, the government is telling us we have to have insurance even though there are other cases that can be cited where the government tells you what you have to do, that and the idea of that they viewed it with some notion that it was a government giveaway . I think there is a lot of different streams of conservative opposition to the Affordable Care ak. Some of it had do to do with just barack obama and generalized opposition to the administration. The pan dates point you make is a good one. But on the other hand at the moment they pass that bill, you had nine or so republicans signed on to a separate bill that had an individual mandate in it. So the individual that idea that individual mandates was originally a republican idea, it wasnt by nature offensive to republicans. But look, what does the Affordable Care act do fundamentally. It taxes rich people and cuts medicare spending and takes that money and gives it to poorer americans to buy reasonably Generous Health insurance. Every single step of that process is something that republicans genuinely, legitimate valid way have disagreements with. They do not like increasing taxes on the wealthy. They think that is bad for the economies, in many ways unjust. They dont think that the insurance the government provides if it provides insurance at all which they are split on should be that generousment they think it should be catastrophic really at best, particularly if its being provided by taxpayers. And they dont like the government, many of them having that much of a role at all. A lot of different kinds of agreements. The problem is those disagreements remain when they are talking about their own plans too. The republicans who want to cover more people and republicans without dont. Republicans who want to stay within the general confines of the Affordable Care act and republicans without dont. We want to build a new system and get the government out of it. And so you have a party that unlike the Democratic Party is very split on its goals around health reform. Democratic party has a lot of arguments about memes but not so much about ends. The gop has a lot of arguments about ends which are never resolved. Those disagreements got flatenned out by the unanimity of dislike for obamacare. Now that they have an opportunity to do Something Like that, it is like all those disagreements have come back to the fore. And i had will say, the dangerous thing for them is they have a plan that i dont think they are prepared for the aftermath. I dont think theyre prepared to defend 24 Million People losing their Health Insurance. I dont think they are prepared to defend all the people who have higher premiums and deductibles after this. And so i think the success for them has been defined narrowly as practices passing a plan am i believe this truly, charlie, the worst thing that can happen with the republican part if they pass this plarntion the disaster, the catastrophe that would follow it, they would do would do perhaps permanent damage to the gop. Permanent damage because if they go to the people in 2018, they will be runly defeated. Yeah, if you go, in 2018 the Congressional Budget Office projects that this bill will throw 14 Million People off Health Insurance n one year, either 14 or 18 Million People. I dont think they are prepared for that at all. And i think the level of betrayal that would feel like to a lot of their voters, their down scale voters who put donald trump in office and believed that he was going to make Health Care Better for them, we talked to those folks. They said they thought he would make their health care cheaper, better. He would help them out. Rose he promised all of that. He promised all of that. He said on 60 minutes, its very important i think to remember this. He said he would be a different kind of republican. That he thought everybody should have health care. And the government should pay for it. That unlike other republicans, he didnt believe that if you were poor you shouldnt get good health care. He said you get to chooses your doctor, get to choose your plan, you get everything covered. Those are hid word his words and then he has this plan that doesnt do that. He said there would be no medicaid cuts. He didnt do that. The poll came out today from quinnipiac. It found that by a margin of 5617, people oppose this bill, 56 oppose it and only 17 support it. You never see numbers like that. And i think that is before it is begun actually taking Health Insurance away from em pa. So that is a wound that if the Republican Party inflicted it on the country, i think both it would do them a lot of damage but also the backlash it would create, next time democrats got in, i think they would be able to pass thg something that was quite a bit to the left of obamacare. Rose you say if they pass this bill, a house bill and the one under consideration with some modification, it will mean terrible things will happen to the Republican Party and certainly members of the house as they run for reelection in 2018. Donald trump and paul ryan are saying to them, if you dont vote for it, if we dont have a replacement, we have been promising and promising and promising it, our words will ring hollow and we will lose badly in 2018. So they are they are in trouble if they do and trouble if they dont. I dont think they have great options. But i think if you had to choose between the two options, i think it is better to go to people and say, well, we werent able to do health care because were still working on it but we did get you this big tax cut and we got you this big Infrastructure Improvement than to say we spent our first two years taking Health Insurance away from you and increasing your deductibles and paiblg making it so your neighbors cant get coverage. And you see the story of the woman who had cancer and cant afford because she is not on medicaid any more. If i were a congressman i know which one i would want to defend. Rose also this, this is a test for President Trumps legislative abilities in terms of being able to fashion leverage slaition as he has promised and he has big items coming up. Tax reform being one, also infrastructure bill being two. Although that will come not this year, they have said. He worries, and he should be worried, i assume, that it looks like he cant deliver. So something that has been a continuous theme for me in reporting on this, has been how important it has been, and how wounding it has been that donald trump himself is not more sure footed and involved in the details of the legislation hes actually pushing. Is he is very untrted in health reform, he does not want to talk about it, he hasnt learned much about it, when he makes cases to republicans, they have been shocked, people in those rooms by how thin the case s how little he will get into the substance of it and i dont say this to bash him because i say it because it matters for tax reform and it matters for infrastructure it is very hard when you are asking people to do big things and hard things, to get them there. And one thing you have to do as president is make a persuasive case. And also yourself, know what you want enough and know what the details are enough that you cant using your political intuition and your political celebrity, get your party to a place that maybe it didnt originally want to go but is the right place for it to go. Great to you have back on the program, thank you for coming. Thank you. Well be right back. Stay with us. Michael morell is here, one of our nations leading National Security professionals. He most recently served as the cia Deputy Director and twice as its acting director. Im pleased to have him back at this table, welcome sir. Great to be here. Great to you have back. Rose its good to be back. Let me just start with this. This is this mornings washington post. House intelligence chair alleged spy agency abuse. The wall street journal, gop lawmaker sparks new battle over trumps spy claim. New york times gop leader puts new spin on wiretaps. Take me through this, unpack this because i dont think most of us understand what the republican chairman of the House Intelligence Committee is saying. Sure. And charlie, this is complicated. But let me start with the punch line. Let me start with the bottomline. This in no way, this in no way validates the president s claim that he was, or his associates at trump tower were the target of surveillance by the Obama Administration. It doesnt even come close to validating. Rose even suggesting it was ordered by the president. Not even close. So what, what di