Welcome to the program, im robert costa of the Washington Post filling in for charlie rose. We begin this evening with david brooks. Op ed columnist for the New York Times. Was odd to me about this health care pln which is really much more ryan than bannon is that it introduces more risk into peoples lives, and it takes away social support. And so as we sit here we dont know how many people are going to be denied insurance, but it will be millions, maybe eight, ten, 15 million and so thats the trump base. And whats odd to me about this Healthcare Plan is its declaring war on people who voted for the republican president , by denying them security of these insurance plans, by taking subsidies that would go to them and using it for tax cuts for the rich. We conclude with the new film personal shopper Stephanie Zacharek of Time Magazine talked to the films director Olivier Assayas and its star Kristen Stewart. Im trying to make a movie thats certainly narrative but also has some kind of poetic or dreamlike dimension. And i want the film to be open to interpretation. I want the audience to day dream about the film. So whatever theyre imagining, its valid. It is totally valid. David brooks, Olivier Assayas and Kristen Stewart when we continue. Funding for charlie rose is provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Good evening, im robert costa filling in for charlie rose. David brooks is here. He has been an op ed columnist for the New York Times since 2003. His writing spans the worlds of politics, culture and the social sciences. His books include bobos in paradise, on Paradise Drive and the social animal. Im pleased to have david brooks join me today. Welcome, david. Good to be with you and with you in wishing charlies best healing. Exactly. Where are we in this moment in President Trumps first hundred days or so in office sth. You know, i think were a bit at a pivot. The one thing i give trump credit for sunday stand wag debate were having in this country. You and i grew up in a world where it is big government, small government, the market versus the state. That debate is over. Now the debate is open versus closed. Those who have the tailwinds of globalization blowing at their back to greater opportunities an those who have the 4ed winds pushing in their faces and want closed trade, closed borders. We see in our country the dutch are about to have an election, the french are about to have an election. And its the same set of issues in all these places. Were at a moment where we have a new political debate and that creates not necessarily new a inlooments but the parties take new positions and sometimes swap positions. Were sort of in the middle of that, i think. Where are we in this realignment. Because when we see the health care debate, speaker ryan is taking the lead, he says hes working in coordination with President Trump and in many ways its a mainstream republican Healthcare Plan it doesnt have the flashes of pop lism that we may have imagined. Is trump moving towards the mainstream gop, the orthodoxy he has rejected . Yeah, i think hes a transitional figure. And my colleague and my friend have written that he is more like jimmy carter in that you had a certain a Democratic Party and then you had a democratic president with a Democratic House and democratic senate, you would think a lot would get done but they werent quite the old George Mcgovern democrats but not quite the bill clinton democrats. They were in the middle. As a result there is incoherence. I think trump is a sign of that incoherence. If you take the two Power Centers here in washington right now who i what say are paul rye be ryan and steve bannon. Paul ryan grew up through empower america which was a Republican Organization here in town. And pretty of the reagan republican worldview, less government, more freedom. Steve bannon represents a nationalist worldview, the people at the working class people, the heart of our society are being hurt, lets give them some security. And so one wants to reduce government tone hans freedom and embrace risk. And the populists want to tighten down to increase security. And what is odd to me about this Healthcare Plan which is really much more ryan than bannon is that it introduces more risk into peoples lives, and it takes away social support. And so as we sit here we dont know how many people are going to be denied insurance but it will be millions, maybe eight, ten, 15 million and so thats the trump base. And whats odd to me about this Healthcare Plan is its declaring war on the people who voted for the republican president. By denying them security of theetion insurance plans. By taking subsidies that would go to them and using it for tax cuts for the rich. And then increasing risk in their lives. And i happen to be a guy who likes the idea of tax credits so people can buy insurance but theres no question it increases risk. It puts the onus on us as individuals and family members to make those choices and shop in that market place and bear those deductibles. And so i just dont think the bannon wing of the party wants risks, wants to be deprived resources and wants to live in a more uncertain world. So to me were sort of the health care reveals a party that is neither here nor there. So as bannon is really the soul of the Trump Presidency in terms of his pop lism and nationalism why is it speaker ryan who is driving the process. We were talking before, i want to ride a colume let bannon be bannon. At least it would be incoherent. I dont agree with the guy, find him a little obnoxious but st coherent world view and he knows who his people are and he is going to defend them. The ryanbannon mixture is an incoherent mixture and thats why this bill is just like on all wings of the party, neither hither nor there. And so the reason i think the ryan and the congressional plan is taking over, a theyve been asked to come up with various plans for years now, and b, and more importantly there is just no functioning white house apparatus. The administration has not even, theyre not even nominating people for the whole host of jobs. You just cant do, the white house, the principles, the four or five people making decisions and all these scads of deputies, an those deputies are not there throughout the administration so you go to the state department, the treasury, the Defense Department and the secretary, secretary, the big bosses, they probably making coffee, sweeping the floor because there is no one else sweeping around, you cant run a white house with four people, you cant get anything done be. You wrote about how this Health Care Proposal can cause disruption and you look at the medicaid aspect of the plan. And it phases out the Medicaid Expansion by 2020, some conservatives want to move that date up. Trump is someone who said early on he wants to provide coverage for everybody. He doesnt want to have this kind of disruption. But dealing with the republican congress, it seems to be moving in that direction. What is the political consequence for this new president . I think for the whole party its going to be onerous. The basic logic is this, the republicans want to cut taxes and theres things called the net tax cut which would only apply to people making over 1250,000. Top 1 percent sort of deal. They want to get rid of that. The more you cut those taxes, the more you have to reduce benefits because you have to be budget newt ral in theory. You have this basic pend lum and so the tax cuts are bringing down, going to bring down benefits whether its medicaid or the size of the tax credit for people on those working and middle income voters. And to me the thing to do is to embrace the tax credit approach, a market based approach but do it at sufficient levels so that it actually provides support, increased support for everybody, which is what the trump goals were. It will keep people protected. We understand that the capitalism is not basically working for people. Were going to do it through livery but to provide benefitsto to people. But the current republicans whether rand paul or ted cruz, the main problem is still in their mind, is too much government, too much government. And i would just ask them where have you been for the last 18 months. Did you not watch this election. You keep writing about how the Republican Party has to meet this moment. But it seems like whenever im at the capital talking to members of the house and senate, they almost feel pulled by there tie, they have been running against this Health Care Law ever since it was enacted and they feel compelled for base reasons, from pressure from the right to just repeal and replace and not really think through the full moment. Yeah, there is a saying that intellectual progress rides in a hearst meaning people dont change their mind, they just die off. I think there is some element of that that the republican or the docks is so baked in that the people go along with what they have been saying all along. It is hard to change your mind mid life. But i do think youve got to look back and say hey, what just happened in american politics . And you know my basic rule about trump is hes at the wrong answer to the right question. And the right question is that capitalism isnt working for people. And our social fabric has decayed to a degree that were unfamiliar with, at least at the bottom income levels of society. And we cant just leave people on their own any more. There is a guy in town who im sure we both know named Grover Norquist who used to be an advocate for something called the leave us alone coalition. Thats right. Where all conservatives agreed disagreed on things but agreed government should leave us alone. But thats not working any more. The social fabric is too fraid. Too many people lack the skills to get jobs, too many families have broang up, opoid addiction is too rampant. You cant just leave people alone any more. Republicans have to adjust and say ive got my method to help people along. Ople access to the new jobveid market. You think republicans and President Trump may have made a mistake by beginning with health care, looking to tax reform, they didnt start with infrastructure, they didnt start with some of the more populist sides of his campaign. Thats my letdown on steve bannon. I would have started with infrastructure. A you get a chance for bipartisan support and thats so important early in an administration. And b, have you looked around at american political history for the last 20 years, clinton, o bma pretty much every administration taken on health care tended up biting them in the rear. So one of the things for those that covered administration after administration their first selection of policy is always the product of hubris, george w. Bush decided the first thing i will do pie second term is Social Security privatization reform. And that was a big mistake because it mudied the water for any bipartisanship and introduced more risk into peoples lives that they did not want. I would say frankly the 15eu78 thing of bam blanca did he the stimulus package first, necessary taited by events. But if obama said what political moment are we in, what i really worry about sin equality. And so every program im going to focus on is going to go after those working class voters in michigan and pennsylvania and ohio and wisconsin, if he had done that, democrats wouldnt have lost the house, they wouldnt have lost the senate or the white house. But instead he did health care which was a legitimate problem. But given our political moment it was a secondary problem, not a primary problem. You wrote recently that President Trumps address to congress was trumpism at its best. If that was trump itch at its best what is trumpism at its worst in terms of perhaps the president s behavior, his allegations about some kind of surveillance of trump tower. What is the worst if thats the best. At least there are so many worsts, there is the succession of worsts but the worst im disturbed by at the moment, and trumps character is him at his worst. The thing i liked about the speech was his character was sort of off to the side and just the subject and policy areas. But the thing that i think i worry about the most this week, i will have a new worst next week, is delegit miization of our institutions. And so we live in washington, i live inside the beltway. And so maybe thats suspect but i spend a lot of time with people who work in the federal agencies. I went to the Congressional Budget Office recently a year or two ago and was there and met all the economists. And they work really hard. And the bureau of labor statistics they work really hard. Intelligence agencies they work really hard. Most of them are not big political thinkers. They believe in what they are doing. They are trying to serve the country, they want clear direction. Let them do their jobs. They are not superidea logical what i think trump is doing is delegitimizing the job numbers that come out of the bureau of labor statistics. The studies that come out of the cbo which are excellent. Sometimes wrong, we all get things wrong. And then all the basic institutions of our government. And if people lose faith in that, i dont care what your agenda is you cant get anything done. You have to have some basic faith in our institutions. One of the reasons the country is great is that we have a basically functioning government. Basically noncorrupt compared to everywhere else around the world. Basically accurate in its Good Faith Service to what the jobs are. The legitimacy point is so pornlt. If you looked at most of the republicans who ran in the primary, they want to take an tax to the federal government and cut a lot of these agencies but the way trump and his Associates Talk about them as delegitimizing we keep hearing this teemple term out of the white house, the dep state, a way of framing the Intelligence Community in an almost con spir tor yal tone. Its paranoia. Stand sort of an intellectual po us loo. Republicans have always wanted cut the size of government, fine. But if you ask people in previous republican administrations, reagan, bushes, even very conservative people, what do you think of the career people you worked with, the career bureaucrats, civil servants, they normally say they are surprisingly good. That is my experience when i sit in a meeting off the record with somebody off the agencies, i say these people are pretty impressive and theyre not making a lot of money. They do it maybe because they like job security bah they also believe in the mission of their agency and believe in the country. And so you can have more of them or less of them. But to say theyre rigged, to say that the jobs numbers are rigged, to say that president obama meant obamacare to fall apart in 2017 to say that the cia, the intelligence agencies are mall ef lently out to get somebody is just inaccurate and it is a form of cor rossive cynicism that just tears at the social fabric. You have written about how President Trump has gone after some of these core tenants of the Republican Party including the hawkish consensus on Foreign Policy. How is the president revealed himself if in anyway so far in Foreign Policy. I would say hes threatening the liberal world order, this has been an article of faith in the party, both parties really that the main threat is either communism or fascism or author tairianism. People without dont play by the rules. And what we have to do is create a set of world order which is based on nato and the eu and our asian alliances and the wto. And they sound tech no krattic and unspiritual. But it is a set of world order and were all going to play by the rules. And by the way were not going to pick and choose what rules we play by. Were going to cooperate and all play by the rules. Some of those rules are you dont invade your neighbors and you know, and so that order has sort of held us together. An i think that order has been one of the great historical achievements mostly and it was lead by the u. S. What trump embodies is a different mentality. The people who created this world order, the big institutions, george marshal, Dwight Eisenhower, those guys, they thought it was not us versus the world it was us amplifying our power by cooperating with the world. And those things like nato they were expansions of American Power. Trump has a much more zero sum worldview, if they are doing well, were doing badly. And therefore we have to do well and make them do badly. He made that speech at the joint session special, im im not president of world. Im president of the united states. That wouldnt have occurred to Dwight Eisenhower because that did not exist. First he is weakening American Power because is he getting us out of these institutions which enhance it and hes letting more room for the people like Vladimir Putin to do their. How deeply invested is Presid