Handle this kind of scale of relations. Rose Mikhail Khodorkovsky for the hour next. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose Mikhail Khodorkovsky is here. He was once russias richest man, ahead of yukoss oil company. He was a political promise nerve until president putin unexpectedly heartedded him in 2013. He served ten years in prison. He lives in exile in london and leads his foundation called open russia. Laying ground work for democratic governance and human rights in russia. Van fair rights that khodorkovsky is the most influential russian to ask critical questions about a post putin russia. I am please to do have him back on this program. Welcome. Thank you. Rose what brings you to new york . I have my sons Family Living here. I have two grand daughters so i came to visit them. Well spend thanksgiving together. Rose very well. Happy thanksgiving. Tell me what you have been doing since you were on this program last time. Well as i have planned to do, i have launched the work of the open russia foundation, which just recently we turned into a movement in helsinki, a sociopolitical movement. We are informing Russian Society about what the kremlin would not like to inform the Russian Society. We engage in helping young Russian Politicians to participate in the elections to the state duma and will continue to help them to get elected into Regional Parliament or at least participate in the pre election show that is called elections in russia. Were also working in a number of other directions. I think that our activity in russia is noticeable. Rose this ha way . Was youre having an i pack on the ground in getting people who agree with you elected . Well have been elected in russia today without administrations approval is impossible. The president S Administration very obviously is not going to give us such approval. But we can help and we do help young politicians at least present themselves to society, introduce themes to present an alternative Russian Society. You see what the main problem in russia is that people, they dont really want putin to be president forever but he has cleaned out the political field so much that society doesnt see an alternative. And evers afraid. What will happen when putin goes. So the task we have set ourselves to show society that there is an alternative to putin and that theres nothing horrible will happen when he goes. On the contrary, it will give the country a new and positive impulse. Rose thats an interesting way of putting it. Youre building for a post putin time. Does that mean that you believe putin can be president of russia as long as he wants to . Thats thats what it looks like. I dont think in reality it will be so. I think that if he doesnt leave by 2024, after that this will take place with greater proposes for russia and for him personally. But for now at any rate, thats what i looks like, that he might just stay there heading the russia as long as he wants. Were telling people thats not so. That between 2018 and 2024, we await some serious changes in russia and we need to be prepared for that. We need to know what to do and we need to see those people who are going to be doing it. Rose would you like to be president of russia . Now thats a question i can tell you without a very absolutely no. Rose why not . The post of russian president especially in the crises in which the current regime is going to leave russia is not the sweetest spot in the world to be in. I would be happy if some young politician could be found who could really want to take this post. At any rate, were helping such politicians to show themselves. I see my task somewhat differently. I see that at the moment, when todays regime falls apart and it certainly is going to fall apart at some point, there will be a huge problem. We cant have election immediately in order to immediately elect a new honest, honestly elected power in the country. What todays regime has done doesnt allow that to happen after immediate elections. Theyve adopted such laws. Theyve set such people in the electoral commissions that its impossible to conduct an honest election. There will have to be a transition period during which political refor will need to take place and these honest elections to be prepared for. We ticket will take about 24 months to get this done. This work is something myself and my team could take upon ourselves or at least participate in getting it done. Rose can you go back to russia . Under todays regime, i can return to russia only in order to immediately go to jail. After this regime leaves theres no tout i will be able to return and i will return. Rose they made it clear to you if you come back you go to jail. Well, of course. At first they said this softly and then a few more times said it even more harshly. Rose how did they say it . First, the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation for the first time in history refused to abide by a judgment of the European Court of human rights that had ruled that my verdict should be reviewed. Subsequently, they opened a new criminal case against me and even requested interpol,inter pole obviously refused them. Today there are dozens of people in the country who are being searched, being brought in for interrogation. They are being intimidated specifically because of their association with me and the work that i do. Rose did you believe the russian regime is a criminal regime . I would say that the technology that they use, this attempts to buy people who dont agree with them. If you cant buy them, then interim intimidate them. A creation of a hierarchy through letting everybody give permission to steal on his turf. That really does sound like a criminal model of behavior. And when we work with this regime, we need to understand that this is how they see things. For example, they cant realize that when a person is trying to make a concession to them, its not because hes afraid of them, but because hes trying to find a common language with them, a common solution. Any attempt to meet them halfway they view as a weakness and a signal of the fact that you can and should keep on pressing. Rose so this is a recommendation you would have for president elect trump that he should push forward in terms of negotiating with them but do it with the expectation that he cannot allow them to believe he is weak. I think that president s trump as a person who spent a large part of his life in business understands such a style that some counterparties in business sometimes have. But theres another point i want to make here. When were working in business, we understand that our agreements with our counterparty are supported by a legal system. Which both i and my counterparty adhere to. If we have agreed on something and signed it, were going stood it. President elect trump in his country in america also understands that he cant just do whatever he wants because hes got a congress, hes got a Supreme Court, the senate and public pip. That stand against him. Now hes going to be talk is with a person who is completely free from any Institutional Support and institutional checks and balances. He can sign an agreement with you today and tomorrow hell violate it. And theres nobody in the country and nothing in the country that will prevent him from doing that. This is a specific feature that needs to be take even into account and thats why i say that strategic agreements with Vladimir Putin are hardly likely. Rose even though we have Nuclear Agreements with him . With russia. I very much hope that nuclear arms is not a subject thats going to be put on the table immediately. Thats after all something that is best to not even think about. But if we go beyond the bounds of mutual nuclear deterrence, all other agreements need to be based on some kind of common values. There are no such common values. Rose what we call rule of law. Absolutely. And then we get a very serious problem after this. When the president of the United States says something, even though hes a very influential person in the american political system, he does know that there are some things some lines he cannot cross. President putin does not understand that and doesnt realize this. Rose so there is no restraint on his power in russia . Absolutely so. And he projects this on to his counterparty at the negotiating table. If those say to them well i do have constraints, theres something i cant do. He thinks theyre trying to deceive him. Rose what does he want from the United States. What does he want from the new government of the United States . Putins global task if he sees it, is to ensure that his regime is not replaced. Thats his global task. But because in his head, the whole world stands against him. And he projects this point of view on to all of Russian Society. He needs to be shown an enemy. An enemy will always be such a convenient enemy because its powerful. But far away. That is, you can call him an enemy without having to worry about it. And he needs little victories, like hes got in syria for example or ukraine. So putin right now is going to try to get from the new American Administration and a consolidation, if you will, of the acknowledgment of his victory, the annexation of crimea, whats going on in eastern ukraine, whats going on in syria. He needs for the new administration to say all right, vladimir this is your victory. Were going to establish the new worm order together with you. Im not sure if the new administration in the u. S. Is ready for such a thing. Rose we dont know yet. Clearly the new administration doesnt even have its team together. But that is one of the questions, an important question that came out of the campaign. What will be the relationship if donald trump wins between a President Trump and a president putin. What kind of relationship, what kind of understandings might they have about the world order . My opinion is that putin has already worked out that model that he would like to use with donald trump. He worked it out on berstoni. Hes going to look for some kind of personal understanding, personal relations along the lines of like here we are you and i way up on top altogether just the two of us and everybody else is somewhere there below us. Im not sure whether the american political sysem could handle this kind of style of relations. Rose in syria, what does he want . Does he want to have his person bashir assad stay in power so that he gets what . Well, as i already explained to you, in my opinion putin, his task number one is to keep his regime unchanged. Because this is done using methods that arent very welcomed in developed democratic countries. He needs to create various points where things, that he can change. That is, if you do this for me, if you allow me to do what i want in russias orbit, then i can give you a concession here. So what he wants to do is first create problems and then make it so that these problems can be resolved only with him. Syria is one of these problems that has been created specifically so that it can then be exchanged for something. Thats his line of behavior. And it hasnt been unsuccessful i have to say. Etcetera another matter that as was the case in ukraine, you need to pay for this with the lives of our soldiers. But human lives are not nearly as valuable to them as they might be to others. Rose and he views syria and ukraine as a bargaining chip to mainton the stability and the survival of his regime in moscow. I would say ukraine might have a value in and of itself on top of that. Rose as a border. Yes. Its the near, its a near neighbor and you would like to have a government in kiev but these are nothing more than bargaining chips. Rose how weak is the russian economy . The russian economy, and im very sad to say this, is deteriorating. It is gradually losing its competitiveness. We can see this easily from how modern day products are becoming a smaller and smaller part of the whole manufacturing base. I think that were at the next circle already. Even education is getting were because for the kind of industry that youve got in russia today you dont need the kind of education that we used to v nobody needs that science. So degeneration is taking place and this is a process that has gone quite a way already. Does this mean that as a result of these economic problems, the regime will collapse . No. That does not mean that. A deterior ocean of the economy in and of itself is not going to drag down the foundations of the regime. Rose no matter how low the price of oil is, they can withstand economic pressure and designing price of oil which is not declining by the way. You know much more about that than i do. You probably again unfortunately had this experience with iran. When the standard of living deterioration is compensated for by propaganda about enemies outside of russia are attacking and doing nasty thing to our economy. Putin is using this iran experience the whole nine yards. Rose in term of europe, what are the objectives in europe . I think that the main goal again is the same one i mentioned before but the methods that he wants to achieve this is by destroying a united europe. For putin, its much more effective and promising to work with individual National Governments than with a united europe that naturally has opportunities in this case to stand for its common values and common interests much better. What hes doing now is these breaks, hes provoking these break, these cracks. We know that putin right now is both idea lodgely and financially supporting erratic movements left and right. Thats important to him is that society in europe be polarized and as a result of this for europe to start breaking apart. Unfortunately, he is also not without successes in this area. There is a general trend of movement away from globalizational processes, but hes putting himself into it very successfully. Rose and you do see people, certain leaders announcing kind of respect for putin and announcing a kind of willingness to do business with him so to speak. Yes, yes. Putin is very effective. He has shown that the pressure of political corruption has not been taken off the table at all in european democratic countries the. In many of the democratic countries of europe. In some cases that is not direct corruption its intermediate created in other cases its pressure through propaganda tools which unfortunately in todays united europe the have not turned out to be, theres an alternative to them. But sometime its straight ahead corruption. Which unfortunately sometimes actually achieves its goals. Rose he just fired one of his principals in moscow for corruption. What was that about . Well, as you know, in russia theres a saying that the person who yells stop they the loud i was is stop the thief the loudest is probably the thief. Thats not the only thing here. In russia it does resonate with society and the opposition obviously tries to raise this agenda and putin naturally wants to coopt it to himself. Plus now he has to conduct a purge, a cleansing of his circle. And for this purging, the corruption theme gives it a nice noble facade to this clean up. Although of course you understand there isnt a single clean person in putins circle. Some are more corrupt, some are less corrupt, some act moreover deeply, some act less teamly but just about everybody is corrupt. Im saying that maybe there is some one person hiding some place who is not corrupt. So i dont want to paint all of that. Rose does that include your fellow oligarchs that we are familiar with some of their names. Are they by definition corrupted if they are continuing to do business in russia and seemingly have a Good Relationship with putin . Look, in 2003, we were at a crossroads. We could either have gone to an open economy without corruption or we could have followed and continued the same path. Putin made the decision for the whole country. Let me put it this way. Its hard for me to imagine how you can work in russia today without taking direct or indirect participation in the corruptional processes. The example of ulkiyo. They received money as they accused him. And now everybodys convinced of this and theres a lot of writing about this in russia. A very large number of people got money, government employees, and people in the uniformed services. Rofsneh shareholder is british petroleum. Could representatives not know that in the Central Office of refsneh there are systemic bribes being given to members of the government, members of the cabinet, employees of much mone . Well, when i used to be asked this question, i always used to answer that i think personally he doesnt take money because why does he need money personally. Yes. But the latest investigation with the radugan, if you may recall of these bahamian offshore companies have shown me even in 2012, until 2012, there was a direction in which money was being paid by people such as costin and other people from 9 inner circle, putins inner circle. So i cant imagine that this kind of money box could be paid into for anybody other than putin. The payments were very interesting. Out of hundred of millions of dollars, all the way down to 600,000 which is really kind of interesting. It seems like this is the mechanism putin doesnt really want to stop or cant stop anymore. This is how its done. In these criminal circles that you need to pay tribute to the bossman on top. Part of what you gain you pay upwards. Whether he needs it or not is another question. How much has accumulated there, i would say probably ten of billions but i would say no idea. Rose im going to leave putin with this one last question. In terms of your advice to the new president of the United States in dealing with him would be what . Im asking you to repeat that but your advice to trump. What kind of relationship should he have with putin . What kind of deals should he be prepared to make . What warnings would you give him . Probably in his rather lengthy business career, hes had cases wh