Five years and say certainly its freer now than five years auto and much more than ten years ago. In the past five year thats changed. China is much more controlled than five years ago, its much more difficult for International Businesses to do business there. So the question is, has the trend really changed and if so, does the United States need to change its approach. Rose and we conclude with mar grow price. Her new al gore is mid west farmers daughter. When i set out to write this album i had given up trying to write pop songs or rock and roll songs or whatever i had been doing on the last four album. I wasnt worried about if the hook was good enough or if it was melodically catchy enough i want the lyrical content to be there. Rose leonhardt, fallows and price when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we begin this evening with a look at president elect Donald TrumpsTransition Team and the aftermath of the election. It has been one week since trump scored a toning victory against democratic rifle Hillary Clinton. He has denied reports of chaos in his efforts to fill staff position in his new administration. Rudy giuliani is plead to be a leagd contender for secretary of state and schumer was elected as the next leader of the senate democrats. Hes now one of the partys most influential counter weights to the trump administration. David leonhardt joins me now and im please to do have him back at this table. Welcome. People are looking at what happened here and the surprises d pollsters, pundits, press fail or simply did things happen that made this impossible to accurately entertain. I think this is an important moment for self reflection from everyone, from journalists and pollsters. The interesting thing to say here is everyone missed this. If you remember back in 2012 people close to mitt romney thought he was going to win. Rose including mitt romney. Including mitt romney. Had he won i think it would have been important for democrats and people in the media to be self reflective why the Romney Campaign was right and they were wrong. This was different. Trump himself expected to lose. The Republican National committee expected to lose. Hillary clinton expected to win. There was no media source out there saying look, the polls show that hes ahead. Rose you kept asking how large is it, we asked the question often how large is the trump vote. Is there a hidden vote. We asked those questions. Right. Rose you just doesnt know the answer. The polls were wrong. On the one hand the size of the error of the poll was not historically large but it was historically important because what it did was it shifted by several points in precisely the states that trump needed. And i think we are going to need some time to sort through why that happened but i do think that we shouldnt abandon polls. But i think after an election like this, we have to look at them with more humility than we before because the fact is poll Response Rates have gone way down and there really is a chance theyre backing less accurate this time. Rose did donald trump did something in his team we can now look at and say they were blinlt in the way they analyzed the possibilities. They did something right when no one else thought it was right. I think the key thing is that democrats persuaded themselves that, and to be clear, many other independent analysis including many of us in the press, thought this was correct. Trumps team thought it was correct by the end. Democrats persuaded themselves that the rising demographics that leaned democratic have gotten large enough to carry the day. Latinos, asian americans, millennials. I dont know if youve seen one of those maps that shows how millennials across the country voted and i think Hillary Clinton won 40 states. Those are real trends but we were mislead about how important they had become. By taking the White Working Class vote for granted, the democrats essentially alienated that vote and by trump running a campaign unlike any republican has run, a much more nationalist, ethnocentric pap List Campaign was able to bring people out of the woodwork. And the combination of those two things what led to this truly as you said stunning result. Rose do we now understand with happened site what it was that propelled the people who gave him his victory. I think it w s a lot of things. I think that establishment candidates fared extremely badly this year. Not just Hillary Clinton, but jeb bush and the other republicans anointed by the establishment like scott walker. Rose people who have been around politics for a while. People who has been around politics for a while. Thats right. Look, Bernie Sanders clearly lost the primary to Hillary Clinton. I think about 55 to 45 of the democratic vote. However, Bernie Sanders is a socialist from vermont who wasnt a member of the Democratic Party until recently. The reason he got 45 of the vote in fairness because the real sign in just how weak the establishment is. In Hillary Clinton you had a candidate who really had a lot of flaws. Two you had trump really getting out this vote in a way that didnt seem possible but actually happened. Rose with that kind of an Organization Behind him. Without an Organization Behind him. Rose you rallied with his emotional push. Thats right. Look, what i have said is i think the central problem facing the country in addition to Climate Change is the great stagnation. It is the fact that for a very large more than of this country life isnt Getting Better but its gotten marginally better over the last generation. And that breeds a lot of cynicism. Think about this. As americans we like to talk about how much our lives have gotten better and we dont think about ourselves in relation to our grandparents. We think about whole muni tease, about italian americans, how your ancestors came over and worked are hard and how you now enjoy this great quality of life. This is a deeply american story. Now imagine in large parts of this country by some estimates it might be a third of the country or close to a year andahalf. All that hard work would feel like it had broken against you. I am not defending at all the bigotry that we have seen connected with the trump campaign. We can talk about that. I find it deeply alarming. But i do understand why it has found a greater audience in this time of stagnation than it has been for a long time. Rose when you say stagnation is this what Larry Summers called secular stagnation. Yes a version of it. Rose which is a restriction on traditional growth rights. Yes. It is two things, is it that growth has slowed down and inequality has written. For most people the amount of their share is growing is very very slow. You look at net worth for a typical family its lower than it was in the 1980s. That is shocking. You look at income gains. Yes. Lower. For the mid 80s so call it 30 years. Look at incomes theyve grown for the working class extremely slowly. You look at family formation. For College Graduates divorce is a lot less dhun. For people who havent graduated from College Going up in a family only for one pairment, many more people are in jail than used to be. Drug abuse is much worse. Theres the same study that came out in the last couple years showing that for large groups of whites without a college degree. Life spans have not gotten longer. And so when you think about this stagnation and despair, to me it helps explain some of what happened here. Now, i am frightened about where we now go because trump does not have a platform that it seems to me addresses many of these issues. And im deeply worried about the Civil Liberties issues. Rose lets talk about that. Who is it that worries you because a lot of people look at the alt right in the presence of mr. Bannen. What is it that worries you and others in terms of Civil Liberties. What might happen that someone ought to raise a red flag and say thats be careful and village length enough in the protection of individual rights. There are two issues and they overlap but i think of them somewhat differently. One is a basic respect for rule of law. There were multiple times during the campaign when president elect trump said things that did not show a respect for the rule of law, right. He suggested that a judge could not be objective simply because it is. Rose in fact he didnt come from mexico he was born in indiana. He was born in indiana. He said his opponent should be jailed and he meet not accept the votes of the election. He went on and on. We have values in this country and we never in modern times ever had a president ial candidate who ran essentially opposing many of those Democratic Values. Now he didnt just run, he won and hes going to be the president. So i think theres a very big question about do those values wake weaken. Does that mean when President Trump gets a ruling from a judge that he doesnt like, does he try to circumvent that ruling and have that judge impeached. I were e about that because if you take him at his word rose there are a lot of people whoization i who say, people opposed to donald trump took him literally and not seriously. People who voted for him took him seriously and not literally. They didnt agree with everything he said and didnt take it literally. That it was as they understood it just to be Campaign Tactics and rhetoric and strategy. I certainly hope thats the case. I would much rather have hypocrisy on his part than some kind of move toward authoritarianism. I think its a big mistake for us just to assume he doesnt mean it all. People run for president saying d they win more often thaning not. Rose obamacare being an example. Tax cuts. Rose spending money on National Security by ronald reagan. The list goes on. I dont think we should blythely assume oh he didnt mean those things because they seemed really bad. So i really would like to see signs from him that he is going to respect Civil Liberties, the rule of law, basic Constitutional Rights and i think it is very important for people in washington, including republicans, primarily republicans to put real pressure on him to do that. People like rand paul and people close to him. The other issue the surge of hate. The online racism, the real life racism weve seen in recent days, the online semitism. It is true that much of that online in terms of web cites and things like that. Yes. Whether it is students at College Campuses being targeted with racist stuff, whether it is graffiti, not online, whether it is people being talked with antisemitism. It is true that for the overwhelming bulk of that does not come from anyone in the campaign. But its been on the website bright part run by steven bannen who is now going to be senior advisor. He has not distanced himselflf from that. He has not said hey i reject this thats been on my website. Rose what he has said is look, he has said nor should i necessarily be held accountable for all of it because i didnt write it. Yes. But it happened while he was the executive chairman of it. And i am concerned about that wink and nod about a lot of that stuff. Mayor deblawz went and visited with donald trump today and said look people are frightened and you have a responsibility to make them feel more comfortable. I do think that is a deep responsibility and i think if the president elect doesnt live up to that responsibility, it is absolutely vital that the institutions of our civic society, congress, the courts the media, we do not change our standards in what it mans to live in Pluralistic Society under the rule of law. Rose when Barack Obama Says look i think hes been sobered by the whitehouse, we need to give him an opportunity to what hes going to do and says i think hes more pragmatic than not. Is that what you say thats right. President object is doing it right here and its hard for him to come out of election and speak badly about the president elect. The people have spoken. Obama is trying for a smooth transition. As obama said he had this line gestures matter. You got the sense that he was saying that, that while he was talking about the president elect, he was also talking about himself. That he was saying gestures matter and what i want to try to do here is lower the temperature and try to get us back to some of these Democratic Values that are so important to this country. Rose thank you for coming. Thank you charlie. Rose David Leonhardt from rose jim fallows is here, an observe are of china and japan and other places. His new magazine chinas great leap backward and he argues that the country almost at one point of 4 billion people have not been this repressive since the cultural revolution. I am pleased to have him back on this program, welcome. Now were talking about this talking about president elect trump and this is where your article the great leap backward comes. China is more hope and belligerent than five years ago, even ten. Its become repressive in a way since the cultural revolution. My china optimist considers a darker future and asks what a more dangerous and more adversarial china would mean for the United States. Especially when we look at the change in government here. In. Indeed. I wrote this article before the election because thats the reality of magazines with their lead times. In the assumption was United States have been thinking calm me and rationally the way they deal with cheese changes which i argue makes china more difficult to telewith for everybody starting with the United States. How the United States will approach this under the leadership of donald trump is a whole, adds a whole different area of complexity. Rose whats happening in china with xi jinping. Its internal expression and external blagojevich billergencp. At any interrule you could look back five years and say well certainly its freer now than it was five years ago and much more than ten years ago. In the past five years thats changed. China is much more controlled than five years ago, more of an antiforeign, its much more difficult for International Businesses to do business there and the question is has it trend chilly ranked and if so does the United States have to change their approach. Rose there are a couple things xi jinping said he had to do was corruption and pollution. We could look at the international history. The paramount point of u. S. Chinese cooperation right now is in climate and environmental issues. It was interesting that xi jinping publicly said to drawd after the election we dont want you to pull out of this paris climate pack that really matters to us. To the extent theres International Hope on climate issues, it depends on the u. S. And china working together. But yes xi jinping came to power knowing there were lots of things chie you know was less successful inside than outside. Rose where is he more belligerent. When you try to sort of build up Domestic Support by plexing your external muscles. I think theres a combination of arrogance and insecurity. The arrogance may stem from the recommend informants of the 20078 financial collapse in the United States which made china feel our time has really come. The insecurity is xi jinpings realization of how many things threaten chinas future from pollution to a sort of topping off of the economys growth to the resistance and hostility of many of his neighbors. So one way to weve seen in many countries is sort of you stand up to the japanese. You stand up to the americans, you stand up to the filipinos. Rose nationalism stirs your own political survival. Exactly. Know very well the antijapanese feelings in china are very easy to revv up. I think we discussed this before. Lets a deep feeling by a lot of chinas leaders that the United States finally does not wish them well. The United States would like to bottle them up and hold them down despite american president saying the opposite for many years. So this is a way to prey on the United States. Rose are they write about that in any way other than the fact we clearly do want to have relationships and we want to be a Pacific Power and we want to have relationships with countries who worry about china. Yes. I think there are, theres a layer at which the chinese fear in my view is completely unfounded but theyll never believe it. Which is that from the time of mixen onward, the american policy really habits better for us if china prospers than if they stagnate because difficult as they are, prospering, they would be worse if they were going down. I think there is, we dont see as much of it right now in some recent past of people feeling chinas overtakin