Of singer songwriter Leonard Cohen who died thursday, age 82. Charlie interviewed him for cbs night watch on this day in 1988. There is something that is wonderful about finishing a song youve labored on with a kind of care and intensity. You know that if youre going to be singing a song for the next 20 years, you want to be sure that you can get behind every word, and i have a lot of songs that i can still get behind because i brought that kind of attention to the lyric. And we conclude with Nobel Laureate eric kandel who talks about his new book which explores the relationship between art and Brain Science. In science, particularly Brain Science, we want to understand how the human mind works, what could be more central. In art, we want to understand how people respond to works about how the imagination works, how we can stimulate the imagination. One to have the things that are pleasing to people, those are really important questions. What enriches your life. Veterans, Leonard Cohen and eric kandel coming up. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. The war in iraq has claimed the lives of more than 2800 american troops. On this program weve talked about the war from many perspectives, journalists, generous, politicians and authors debated the reason we went to war, talked about the policy, strategy, the idea of the future years involvement in iraq. Joke me are three men who served in the u. S. Military in iraq a. Paul rieckhoff, author of chasing ghost a soldiers right, founder and executive director of the iraq and afghanistan veterans of america, he served in the u. S. Army in iraq from april 2003 to february 2004. Also here daniel anfang, he served in the marines in fallujah in 2004, currently holds the rank of sergeant. David myers also served in the marine corps as a First Lieutenant. I am pleased to have all of them here to talk about iraq as they see it, the war as they see it, the issues that they see and what those of us at home ought to know about the soldiers in iraq and the war that they are engaged in and what their own feelings and their own understanding of mission is, so i welcome all of you. Thank you. Let me, paul, begin with you. Tell me, what ought we know from your perspective about the men and women who are fighting the war . Well, theyre fantastic. I think theyre really doing our country so proud in so many different ways. They are without a doubt the final force weve ever fielded. Theyre educated, dynamic, passionate, theyre really trying to do their best every day, but theyre also in a tough spot. I think they recognize that and theyre trying to make do with a difficult situation, difficult operating environment, and i think a detached American Public. Thats one to have the things i hear consistently from people. Rose a detached American Public. Yeah. Rose detached because theyre not personally connected. Less than 1 to have the American Population served in iraq and afghanistan. In world war ii, you had about 10 or 11 . When you come home, looks like most of america is busy looking at Britney Spears or madonna when you have friends in fallujah or tikrit operating in combat environment and that detachment affects the way we treat veterans and view the war. The entire dynamic is different because its such a small of the population and the American Public is so removed from it. Rose what would you add to this . Echoing what paul said a, they are unbelievable individuals. I dont think ill go through the rest of my life meeting a better group of individuals than i served with in iraq and i constantly keep in touch with them, and, you know, moving forward, i think it, you know, just like paul said, it is difficult because the American Public is very detached, and there is somewhat of i think you could call it like a siphon, in terms of whats going on there on the ground. Like you said before in your introduction, youve had a number of individuals here who have different perspectives than we do and im happy you invited us here today because we have that boots opt deck perspective. Rose how else is it different . Its really different because were there for these extended periods of time, okay. Daniel and i served in the same regiment together. Rose both in fallujah together. Fallujah together . Yeah. Rose i know your dad and he said to me before you thought about doing this segment, you know, you ought to talk to my son about fallujah. What would i have understood if i had talked to you at that time . At that time, when i had immediately gotten back, i was extremely frustrated with the way we had been able to operate while we were in fallujah. Rose you couldnt operate the way you wanted to . We had certain constraints, absolutely. The city of fallujah during the marchup was basically bypassed. The objective, when we pushed up from kuwait, was to get to baghdad and secure Baghdad International airport as quickly as we could and certain areas were bypassed, fallujah was one of those areas, it became a staging ground an an infestation of the insurgency. And from the first month that i got into iraq for my second deployment was february of 2004. We had done a turnover with the 82nd airborne, and fallujah was a nogo zone. We were not allowed to operate inside that area because it was deemed as being too dangerous, and that was frustrating once we first got there. Then the culminating point was this blackwater scenario where these individuals ended up being hung on the west side. From that point we were able to cordon off the city rose people working as private contractors in iraq . Right. And then we were allowed to make an initial push into the city. Before that, we were frustrated as marines that we could not go in there and do the job we came there to do. Rose why couldnt you go in there at that time . Political rationale at that time probably was we were going to take a heavy loss if we went in there. I think politically, we wanted to try and work toward a different solution in terms of negotiating with these individuals, see if we could have another alternative as opposed to going in there, and we tried that, and it didnt work. What subsequently happened was the november invasion of fallujah after i had subsequently left. Rose and what happened at that time . At that time, fifth marines along with a number of army units andout urinates picked up where we left off and moved through the city and cleared it. Rose which is what you wanted to do in the beginning. Which is what we wanted to do once we got there. Rose it is often said, and ive heard this a thousand times, that men and women in combat have a mission but the most important thing is the people that theyre fighting alongside, that that is what binds them, thats where their highest instinct is, to work with and take care of those that are in battle with them. You develop this bond that you cannot find anywhere else. Its something that is so tight that you trust the men to the right of you and the men the to the left of you. You cant find it anywhere else. Its something thats very unique. Rose some believe that a lot of things that are good are not reported. Is that something you guys feel strongly about . There hasnt been enough breath. They dont dig in deep. They want a 30second sound byte, a quick story but they dont want to understand the magnitude of the story. Try to explain how your buddy died in a cnn clip. There are so many emotions there its hard to convince it down for a quick sound byte and thats part of the frustration i felt. But i think, at the same time, if you want good news stories, go to disneyland. This is a war zone and people are dying and being wounded and i think you have an obligation to represent that and show American People the true human cost of war and i dont think nats an antiwar or pro war statement, its a statement in the best interest of our military and soldiers to to understand the experience and the obligation of america to urns what happening there. I would add one of the things that very much so frustrates me is not too many of the stories of our heros are really told. I have ten to 20 of my very good friends who deserve a frontpage article in the new york times. Rose a story overone. Captain shantash, a platoon commander during the march up and he was a commander of a kat team and they have heavy guns and humvees. They were rolling north, encountered a trench line of iraqis, came under severe fire. He decided to take his humvee, drive it directly into the trench, disnowntd humvee, cleared the trench, killed 30 iraqis, ended up saving a number of lives of the men in his platoon. Ended up awarded for the navy cross rose highest medal in the navy. Highest in the navy and marine corps. The only thing mentioned was a little article in his local paper. Rose did you believe you had the support of people at home when you were fighting . Was there any question that their public country support, those who might disagree about the war but the support for you as a soldier . I had many people who supported myself and my platoon, per se. I had dwayne reed support us, send us packages, family, friends. I had more support, helped me through the war, a letter every day just got me through. He mentions the letters people sent him to help him get through. Very important. The soldiers, the marines overseas in theater, it motivates us and builds our morale up. Its war, no ifs ands or buts about that, but the letters and packages from home, we appreciate that. In america culture, people separate the war from the policy. The vets in vehement learned to separate the two. I have been treating fantastically by and large. I live in new york city and when i walk around everybody wants to shake my hand, treats me well and thats an amazing testament to the American People. Because youre antiwar, i dont think it necessarily means youre against me and i think thats progress in this country and what we need to look for going forward. The support i got forward was incredible. Rose did you get the support you needed from the military . We hear stories about people driving humvees have to go out and get extra protection and the humvees were not and this was raised with the secretary of defense. Right, my guys didnt have adequate rose how can that be . Thats the question we need to ask. How did you send troops with inadequate body armor, no double a batteries, inequipped. We didnt have interpreters and economic and political tools to be successful. That goes to the leadership. The senior generous bear some of the responsibility, but i think rumsfeld was failing in his job and lost the confidence of a lot of people in the military and thats why in part the military times last week called for his resignation, people on both sides of the aisle called for his resignation. He failed us. You have to hold people accountable for the failures in the administration. Its about accountability. You were in the reserves, right . Rose yeah. Speaking from First Marine Division and my battalion, we had all of the personal body armor we needed and could possibly carry. Rose did you feel safe if you were on a humvee that the humvee had the kind of Armor Protection thaitd needed from rodeside it gets to a certain point, i think, and these guys are building these improvised explosive devices today with an incredible amount of power. Rose more and more sophisticated. Yes, and it gets to a certain point where no matter how much you have on this hum vehicles its not going to help. I know a number of our tank commanders who have humvees and its not just about body armor for a couple of guys or platoon. It was widespread logistics and procurement failures and it took an outcry of the American Public, the people and veterans coming home to get it fixed. Rumsfeld was dismissive and said you go to war with what you have. The armored humvee factories could have done more. It goes back to the initial issue of detachment. The American Public doesnt know our american soldiers. Most people in the country never met a soldier who had been to iraq and that detachment had to do with it. As far as the body armor, i felt, you know, we had equipment, a right amount of body armor. There is only so much we can carry as soldiers. I felt that was okay. As far as the marines on deck or the soldiers on deck, i didnt feel it was enough. I didnt feel like we had enough men on the ground. My platoon had a hard time filling positions. That was my big problem. Rose having enough . Enough member on the ground filling positions. Just to add to that, you know, there is marine corps doctrine and im sure its in the army field book as well that a it takes a certain amount of combat power to take an objective. It takes a lot more combat power to hold that objective once youre there. So we went into iraq and we took the objective, we took baghdad within a number of weeks, and since we have been there, i completely agree with paul, we needed, and i know senator mccain is pushing the issue for more troops. Rose 20,000 hes calling for minimum. Thats middling around the edges. If you want a comprehensive strategy, weve got to get serious about what its going to take. The criticism i hear constantly in the military and from the members is weve done this halfway. The longer out gets the harder it gets. We need hundreds of thousands not tens of thousands rose what do you think would have happened there is a famous controversy with a general in which he testified they would need 200,000, 300,000 troops and the conventional wisdom is that was sort of the end of his army career, he was chief of staff of the army at that time. General powell has often said weve needed more troops going in there. Is it all your beliefs that, in fact, one of the things thats been wrong with the iraqi war is we didnt have enough men and women on the ground to do the job . During the marchup, we had what we needed and took the objective. Rose until saddam was over. Yes. Post, there was not enough thought process by tommy franks, Donald Rumsfeld or our leaders for whats this aftermath going to look like. My personal opinion, i came back from my first tour and thought im probably not going back, pretty much tone and we had a great welcome from the majority of iraqis and i didnt think it would morph into what it has, but we have not reacted to that. We went with enough combat power to take the objective. We have not reacted to whats been going on in terms to have current threat, and i do believe we need absolutely just like paul mentioned increase it not by incremental but significant amounts. Fitz going to work. Im not saying it will. But we really need to hold the minor changes that are rhetorical or political. You have to talk about comprehensive solutions and the longer which wait the harder it gets. The window of opportunity was summerfall of 2003 and ever since then its been fighting uphill. Rose they werent in control. They disbanded the iraqi army, didnt control the situation and started to go downhill. Rose i wanted to come the rum feld. Do you think his resignation was a good idea . I think it should have happened two years ago. I totally agree with that. Rumsfeld underestimated what we needed in iraq and i believe he didnt take care of the troops like he should have. Like you mentioned about the poor specialist that he ignored. Thats unacceptable. You have an obligation as a combat leader to go down to the lowest level, to talk to the sergeants, the privates and find out about the Ground Troops we call the military is that what would have they heard . Exactly what the sergeant is saying, we didnt have enough people, didnt have the tools to be successful. Thats the frustration i hear within the military with rumsfeld and others. We no general batiste who compland it did division inside iraq wasnt listening. In many ways he set the military up for failure. I dont want to see the rhetoric change where you blame the generous. True commanderinchief or not and if you are take charge and start to fix the situation here. I think thats the last thing we want is this to become a war of escalation which, you know, ive done a little reading, obviously, but thats what the perceived problem in vietnam was, it was a war of escalation. We didnt come in with full force with everything we had to take care of that problem, and i know deep within my heart that if we do that here, we can win. Iraqs never going to look like new jersey or texas. We need to seriously downgrade our expectations. Now what were doing is geopolitical triage. We have to think about iran, the turks and our geopolitical stability and downward manager what were going to get out of iraq. It wont look like president bush told us. Rose you think it was a mistake to go in . I do. I think its weakened us and hasnt made us safer. The president always said we have to fight them over there so we dont have to fight them over here. What if we have to do both is this. Rose why did you go into the marines . I joined 9 11. I was a high school senior. I was the staten island. I looked outside my School Building and saw the twin towers were hit. I left school with permission from my parents. My father was a new York City Police detective. He came running home to get his weaponry and told me, im not going to be home for a couple of days. I didnt see my father for five or six days. I said to myself, you know, i dont want this for my kids. Let me take a stand here and now. Ly de i will devote four years of my life or whatever it takes to ensure the safety of the American People. I felt my children should live in a safe rose and you were how old . 17 years old. And now im 21 today. Rose and do you look back on that time as one of the most important things you did and something you would do over . Without a doubt, i would do it over. Would ity through it more . Definitely. Would i do it over . I would. I feel very patriotic for doing what i did. I feel like ive, you know, helped the greater you know, the greater cause. Rose how did you end up in the marines. Ended up in the marines from bucknell university, graduated, and just wanted to do something different.