Transcripts For KQED Charlie Rose 20160927

An estimated 100 Million Viewers were expected to watch the 90 minute broadcast. Moderated by lester hold of nbc news. New polls show the contest is essentially tied. Heres a look at some key moments from the debate. But im going to cut taxes, big league, and youre going to raise taxes big league, end of story. I have a feeling that by the end of this evening im going to be blamed for everything that has ever happened. Why not. Why not, yeah. And the kind of plan that donald has put forth would be trickle down economics all over again. In fact t would be the most extreme version, the biggest tax cuts for the top percents of the people in this country that weve ever had. I call it trumped up trickle down. Youve been doing this for 30 years. Why are you just think being these solutions right now . I think my husband did a pretty good job in the 1990s. I think a lot about what worked and how we can make it work again. He approved nafta which is the singel worst deal ever approved. Incomes went up broadbased, inclusive growth is what we need in america. Not more advantages for people at the very top. I will release my tax returns against my lawyers wishes when she releases her 3 3,000 emails that have been deleted. Rose joining me is a Wonderful Group from hofstra university, Mark Halperin and John Heilemann, comanaging editors of Bloomberg Politics and cohost of bloomberg television, with all due respect, from washington d. C. Mike allen chief White House Correspondent of politico and from santa barbara, california, politico columnist Jeff Greenfield. From philadelphia polls ster, founder and chair of luntz global frank luntz and here in new york, maureen dowd of the new york times, a columnist for the paper and the author of a new book called the year of voting dangerously. Later this evening katy kay of the bbc and nance nancy cordes and Major Garrett will join us from the debate site. I begin with Mark Halperin and john hiels man at heilemann at hofstra. They are not here yet so i begin with maureen dowd. So give me your reaction. Well, i would say hillary won. But not in such a decisive way. Rose not a knockout. Not in such a decisive way that my conservatives, which i call pie basket of deplorables think he won. So im not sure she got any of his people. And i am sure he didnt get any of hers. So she was able to bait him, not to a total Jack Nik Olson a few good men meltdown but on women, on the birther thing, on iraq. You know, he ended up kind of admitting and bragging about not paying taxes. And he ended up kind of admitting about that the housing bubble was good for him and defending that. And he reiterated that Rossie Odonnell is a fat slob, i think. And he admitted that, you know, that he stiffed people in his business. And he was sort of brag being weird things. I think he really lost an opportunity on iraq. Because he didnt go after hillary on voting for the war and also helping dick cheney make the link between alqaeda and saddam which wasnt true, instead he got all tangled up in defending himself on how he talked to sean hannity about iraq, and he did resist it before he said he did, which he didnt. Rose all right. But he did turn on it in a more, rather than sooner than some of the new yorks i will give him that. Rose frank luntz, you are out there and have a focus group that you will be talking to and have already talked to in part. What did you think . So we asked them when they were done, these are truly undecided voters between the candidates. And 16 of them felt Hillary Clinton had won the debate, had brought them closer to their candidacy, only five of them picked trump and the remaining six percent were tied. There were four key components. Number one, when donald trump was attacking the system, he was doing well am when he was defending himself, that was a disaster. Number two, Hillary Clinton was so well prepared for this, and i agree with what maureen said, and i actually had written down the word baiting him, with three minutes of the debate opening and she did it again and again and again and trump responded horribly. Number three, you dont speak over the moderator ever. And viewers, or undecided felt that he was frankly rude to lester hold. And number four, is that trump described the problems effectively, but he didnt have the solutions. She was not quite as effective in discussing the problems, but they felt she had better answers. In the end, solutions beat problems. Rose i will be right back, frank and maureen. Lets go flow to Jeff Greenfield in sant bar ra, california. You have seen a lot of these. Yeah, not the lincolndouglas ones but pretty much every one after that. But if i hadnt seen the last 15 months of this campaign, i would have seen this as a clear and decisive victory for secretary clinton on a lot of grounds. Atmospherics, she controlled the room in the sense that she was the calm one, she seemed to be enjoying herself. She could laugh off trumps attacks. And in fact, he was so baited and so eager, impulsively to jump in that she was able to use the same line from her acceptance speech, that you know, if you can bait a man with a tweet, that is not somebody you want with the nuclear codes. But the reason that im hesitant is we have seen donald trump behave in ways almost literally from the moment he announced that under normal circumstances would have severely damaged, if not destroyed his campaign. And so the question for me is, for instance, with all those interruptions, and they look pretty obnoxious, are the people who like donald trump because he goes in the face of those people, the media, the elitists, the government. Will they take that as rudeness or will they take that as boldness. Yeah, i think on points, shes the clear winner. But the question is, so what. We may be in an alternative universe. Rose his best argument in this election is change. Im not like washington. I can change washington. Did he make that case, jeff . Not as well as i think he had in the past. There were a couple of lines where you know, you have been there 30 years, what have you done. You are an expert but you made the wrong decisions. Oddly enough, one of the more effecting moments, i think, was when he said about crime that, you know, who suffers the most of it. Its minorities. Because on that answer clinton was kind of conventionally antidine liberal but the idea of him as the guy who can take the system and take it apart, i thought was less effective than he has been in other moments. But you know, for his supporters, we have seen this over an over again. They i will be very blunt. They hear a donald trump that many others of us dont hear. And im not sure they would, i agree with maureen, i dont think he turned off any of his supporters. Rose did he add any new constituencies is part of the question, especially suburban women and. No. Thats where i think thats where, again, if the laws of political gravity havent been permanently suspended, everything from the, i dont know how many women have dealt with people like this, who wont let them finish a sentence. That is probably not the way into the hearts of suburban College Educated women. And i also think that, you know, his bag bragging about how clever he is about not paying contractors and avoiding taxes, if there is anything that possibly could erode some of his support among working class men, White Working Class men, it might be those answers. Rose exactly right. But im dubious. Rose she personalized it by talking about her father as well. That was new for me. I thought the way she did that, you know, she said im glad my father never had to deal with you. I thought that was one of the more original hits of the whole night. Rose i did too. Mike allen, what did you think . Well, charlie, i think we can agree, the biggest lie of all, which all of our sources were telling us is that donald trump didnt practice. He plainly did and we saw it tonight. And we saw a fascinating con greuns in the two strategies. We saw both donald trump and secretary clinton talking to their own people. Fore getting the people in the middle, the undecided. I think frank has found the only undecided voters in captivity. And we saw donald trump, friends said donald trump is talking to an old white guy in michigan. And Hillary Clinton is talking to twitter. And they both won. The twitters loved secretary clinton tonight by far, they especially liked whereas donald trump for the audience that he needs, the audience that he has, and wants to keep and wants to turn out, jim bandehi who has a snapchat channel, we the people, is writing on the snap channel, donald trump played the race and fear cards. It was deliberate and for his con stit wednesdayee t was effective. Rose when you look at the idea of adding new constituencies and appearing president ial, did trump meet that standard . No, i dont think so. I thought hillary was very effective and she had an interesting thing set up here where she knows that he is very sensitive when people say that, you know, he always says i just got a Million Dollars from my father and then basically after that i was a selfmade man who became a billionaire. And she knows hes very sensitive when he is paintedded as the spoiled little rich boy who got a lot more millions from his father. And so she made that case. And then she kind of presented her own father who was a drapery maker as the kind of person that donald trump stiffed. So she used her father effectively. And got under his skin with his father. Rose what about the income tax issue. What do you mean . Rose in other words, defending the fact that he was not willing to make his income tax reports available. Oh yeah, because he sort of admitted. Rose but then he made the deal with her about the emails that she destroyed the emails. I didnt think he did as well on the emails as he could have. Just like he didnt do as well on the iraq issue as he could have. Rose is that because she carried the point by putting him on the defensive with all those baiting questions. Yeah. He seemed, first of all, he seemed like he had a cold. Someone was saying if only to write a lead that say donald trump has a cold. Except the people in l. A. Who suspected he was on coke which he, you know, he is not a Substance Abuse person. But yeah, so i think he wasnt feeling well and he was sniffling and drinking water. And then you know, he was succumbing in his goes amer thin skinned way to some of her baiting. He sorted admitted that he didnt pay taxes and bragged that the government would scwawnder it anyway. Rose go ahead, somebody. Carlie, this is mike. The lead story on politico. By the way, charlie, are you dead on about the income taxes. Absolutely the worst moment, and he came back to t when he was given the chance to challenge hillary on the emails, he didnt. Our focus group actually started to boo him. Understand they are watching a tv that is about 20, maybe 15 feet away from him. And when they verbally react, booing, that tells you that there is something that is going on there. They argued that he was fighting too much to defend himself and not enough to defend him. Remember at the Republican Convention when he said Hillary Clintons havingan, im with her. And trump turned it around and said no, im with you. I will be your voice. I will be your representative. He lost that tonight. And that was a big loss for him. He has no ability to take a punch. And thats just going to hurt him every time. Rose but thats what he prides himself, on being a counterpuncher. Yes. But hes awful. But it all devolved into his ego. Rose Jeff Greenfield, what about the end in which he attacked her and her health. And she ended up by saying look, you know, when you have traveled as many miles as i have, and when you have negotiated as hard as i have, then maybe you can speak to this issue. That was one of those moments where i think am big uity drops away. He, you know, he opened the door and she, im mixing metaphors here. She disconnect connected solidly. It started when he was asked by lester hold, what do you mean she didnt have the look of a president. Which i think everybody in the country understands that there is a gender issue there. And i thought she just waited an waited and then, you know, offered that list, and delivered it very well. This is where, you know, this is the one place where i think even though im sceptical because of what has happened the last year and change, that if there was any movement caused by this debate, it would be in among women who dont particularly like hillary, have doubteds about trump, i mean i think on a lot of these answers, he showed himself to be the donald trump that the Hillry Clinton campaign wanted these women to see. Rose yeah. Charlie, this is mike allen. Picking up on jeffs point about that last question, i think we have become numb over the last year and a half. And we have to pause for a second and talk about how astounding it is that in this debate, we had donald trump saying that Hillary Clinton didnt have the look, didnt have the stamina, she is saying he engaged in a long record of racist behavior. One nominee calling the other racist, astonishing. And we just have grown immune to it like we have never heard anything like that. Around the point about donald trump taking the bait, the lead story on politico right now says donald trump keeps his cool, Hillary Clinton composed. That is the quick take at the top of politico. Rose katy kay from the bbc at hofstra. Katy, who were the moments for you that may have a Lasting Impact on the way this campaign this debate is perceived and this campaign progresses. Look, i think Hillary Clinton had the stronger debate tonight. But there were no knockout blows against donald trump. He proved that he can have the stamina and the focus for 90 minutes. He proved he can have it for 85 minutes because the last five minutes were pretty much a disaster for him. And there was not a woman in the audience or a woman watching that who didnt understand the dog whistle politics of lester holts question about that she doesnt have the look of a president. And he handled that very badly. There was, however, also political malpractice. She got away incredibly lightly with the whole email server issue. I am sure her campaign is thinking right now, why on earth did she not handle it like this right from the beginning of this campaign. A frank apology. She said it in about a few sentences and that was it. And there was no followup. He didnt go after her again when the question came up about cybersecurity. So i think that donald trump missed opportunities to raise the character issues of whether she is trust worthy or not. Rose jeff, as were you watching it on television in santa barbara, was there a moment in which he seemed to have lost his game plan and succumbed to what clearly was her intent to draw him into those areas where he loses it because of his selfprotection . Yeah, i think when he was trying to defend his business practices, and kept, you know, he just would not stop. And i think we have seen this over and over again, that the one place where he is extremely sensitive is the notion that hes not the worlds greatest businessman. And i think the litany when she went on on what, on the section of what is it that your taxes might tell us, you know, that was a whole series of direct assaults on either his honesty or his capacity to be a businessman. And i think that unnerved him a little bit. I write for politico but i dont think donald trump kept his cool through the whole 90 minutes. No, no, politico is saying he lost his cool, hillary was composed. Oh, lost his cool. Yes, yes. Rose i heard the same ing jeff did. I heard the same thing you did. So what you are saying, mikes, politico is leading with the idea that he lost his cool and she was supposed. Took the baits, loses his cool. I apologize if i misspoke. Picking up on kattys thing about the email server, yes, i was watching a debate at a Hillary Clinton campaign watch party in articlington. And when she repeated her apology for the email server, her supporters broke into applause for an apology. So it just shows that that is what they had been waiting for. And as i talked to republican sources tonight, republicans are just relieved. This wasnt necessarily the president ial donald trump we saw behind the podium in mexico. But as one republican said to me, for trump, a solid draw is a win. He took the bait, he was trumpee but not as trumpee as they feared. Rose all right, let me go yes, very good, mike. Mark halperin, you and John Heilemann are there. Tell me your own reaction and what is the spin that is going on after the debate . Well, i talked to trump after the debate when he came in an unprecedented move for a general Election Debate here to the spin room to make his case. There are people who read his body language and said he looked shaken. He said people were telling him he won the debate. But i dont think there is any dowlt that he was more on the defensive. I dont think there is any doubt that he took the bait from her on several occasions. I thought he talked too fast. His best moments were when he talked about changing washington and she had been at it for so long and the country still had many problems. That was the point he emphasized to me in the spin room. I suspect, although he did hit that on several occasions in the debate, he failed to excuse that as something he was supposed to talk about, more consistently than he did. Go ahead, John Heilemann. Well, charlie, i agree with mark on that i thought if you just measured the total time of the debate, she was on offense for the vast majority of it he was on defense for the vast majority of it, on his Business Record which i had thought from the very beginning would be a point that she could exploit because hes always very defensive about that, and always rises to the bait, on his taxes. As Jeff Greenfield just said, on the birthedderrism question. The ways in which she talked about, when she had opportunity totion talk about women at the end of the debate where he was defensive, i thought she came prepared, she came to play, i thought she attacked when she needed to and explained when she needed to. And i thought his lack of preparation showed throughout. I do not think most of those attacks that she launched against him were attacks that he could have been amply prepared for and the quality of his answers were just extraordinarily poor. Often incoherent, too long, too defensive and not at all persuasive to the voters who were out there still trying to make up their mind about who to vote for in this election. Rose and taken from a Standard Campaign speeches. Im sorry, charlie. Rose and taken from his Standard Campaign speeches. Yes. Yes, indeed am like i say, i do not think this was a disastrous debate from donald trump but i dont think he moved an inch closer to being president tonight than he was before this debate started. And i dont know if you discussed this already, but Rudy Giuliani who is about as adamant and avid a supporter of donald trump that there is, has tweeted out has not sorry, i was about to read an errant tweet so i will take that back. Back to you. Rose katty. Charlie. Rose yes, please. The one area, st only a fool without disagrees with John Heilemann, the only area that i would suggest that she was on defense and he was on offense that was effective for him, because it came at the beginning of the debate, that may have more weight was on the trade issue. When he pinned her with master and you know, anyone who traveled around in this campaign keeps hearing the issue of trade and globalization. Which is a human theme, it seems, not just here in the states but in other countries as well. And i think he did a successful job there of making her go on defense, of having to apologize for her husband. He called her out, was it Barack Obamas fault, was it his fault then about that was a weak moment for her. She didnt seem prepared for that. I think that is just him going now. Rose is that the trump helicopter leaving now. Hes waving goodbye. Rose let me go back, mark, back to Mark Halperin. Conventional wisdom coming too this was that donald trump was surging in a small way but surging. The race was even but he had a bit of momentum. Does this debate stop that . Im not foolish enough to predict how real voters will react to. This the case republicans are making are that clinton talk and washington speak and trump spoke in a plain spokeen way and a strong way. So i think there are three things could you say if you are looking for a Silver Lining for trump. One is we dont know it will impact voters. It certainly elite and some republicans will judge us as a solid win for her or more than that. Second is trump now has the debate under his belt. And perhaps he will come next time, not just more sort of psychically prepared about what the experience is like but perhaps hell actually practice in the interim, convinced in order to do better he will need to practice. And finally i think that they will now be able to show him this debate. He will watch it and i think he will see, the most basic thing you need to do in a debate is pivot, if you get asked the tough question, a dress it briefly and pivot showing more on the offense. Did he not do that, on a lit nee of things including the iraq war where he said people should go to sean hannity. The thing that i think about this debate that is striking is despite the questions being substantive, the answers were not. And even secretary clinton did not really, i think, give people a sense of what her policies are to make the country better. So she will come in more confident next time i think from a gladiator point of view. But i think theres going to be a soul searching and pressing for both candidates to try to answer in a less personal, negative way and more substantive way the next time. Another thing they wanted to do was to appear, maureen, to appear trusting. The issue had to do with trution and likability. She was more composed leer. Did she make some small gain there in terms of looking likable . Appearing likable. Yeah, she was laughing. She smiled. She was laughing and she had that sort of bemused maternal glare a little bit that she used on, between two ferns, which works when she is trying to paint him as a child. Although that is an insult to children. But she, you know, i think when his most successful actor was that she argument was that she is a status quo person. And that still resonates with the people who want to use donald trump as a baseball bat against washington. You know, i dont understand his stamina argument against her. Because he tried, when i interviewed him, he was trying that out before he got to crooked hillary. But i have never understood it because i think the two of them have more stamina than anyone i have ever seen. Rose one is 69, one is 70. Charlie. Rose yes, jeff. Here is the one thing that i think she did not do, and that at some point in the next two debates, she might need to do. And maybe its not possible at this late stage in her career. Somewhere along the line she needs to say to the people who are least likely to vote for her, that i understand that you have been letdown. And there is a way to do that, i know im not going to win your vote this time, because there is too much water, you know, under the bridge or over the dam. But i do want you to understand that weve made progress in this country. But you have been left out 6789 and if i win the first thing im going to do is go to the places that have not voted for me and sit down and talk and bring in the republicans and figure out do any of us have an idea for how to fix what has gone on in this part of america. And i didnt hear any of that tonight. Maybe thats asking too much. But some grace note like that on her part, i think would be both ice substantively and wise politically. And essential in places like ohio and pennsylvania and michigan, yes, mark . Yeah. Exactly. Im sorry, charlie, were you talking to me . Yeah, youre the only mark i have. Oh, im sorry. I thought you said something about michigan. Are you looking at your device, i know what you were doing. I was. I was. I didnt say i couldnt hear you. I said i didnt catch what you said. Im trying to keep up with the news here. Charlie, i think that jeff is right about all of that. Rose i do too, very much so. If you think about some of these states where Hillary Clinton back in 2008 when she ran against barack obama, one of the bull works she had against him and inn her coalition was she had a connection to White Working Class voters. Barack obama had millenials, he had professionals, he had nonwhite voters, stickily africanamericans, she had support from hispanic voters and working class whites. Right now donald trump is dominating much of his success and much of what makes him competitive in this election is his hold that he has and the lead he has with working class whites, especially in some of the states that you were just talking about. And shes probably not go to win that vote but needs to be more exekive with him than she has. The kind of arguments that would appeal to those voters in those states would be really useful for her with africanamerican voters and hispanic voters and even some millenial voters who right now are not as enthused about her candidacy as they should be or need to be, i should say, if she is going to recapitulate the Obama Coalition to the extent she needs to to win this election. Rose the question everyone is talking about is turnout and enthusiasm. Is this likely in anyway to in a sense generate more enthusiasm for her because they saw her there, and she was in command of her own game plan . And here is a guy who has sort of blown people away and he didnt do that tonight . Does that develop enthusiasm, is the question . I think it allows her to dominate the news in a positive way for at least a day and a half and maybe longer. I think she will be very effective. You will see her out on the trail saying how about that debate last night. Lots of enthusiasm, more News Coverage, News Coverage likes a winner and she will come at it. I think in terms of messaging as i said before, she didnt talk very much about college affordability, about jobs for the future, about the environment. So i think there is still work to be done here. But this gives her a chance i think to reach a broader audience. I think the enthusiasm, you see it in our national bloomsberg poll and lots of other polls, if you are a democrat worried about demographics in the electoral college, that is the biggest thing to worry about. Not the percentage necessarily but will they turn out in sufficient numbers to offset the strength that trump has with white voters and men. What i say in that poll, not only is mark right about the things he said but even in terms of the shares. We have her ahead with millenial voters, young voters, we had her in this poll only up by ten points, at about 40 . Obama claimed almost 60 of millenial votes in 2012. And that means she is down, 20 points shy, just as a matter of the share of the vote let alone the raw numbers. So she has a challenge there for sure. I think one of the things that we all put a lot of emphasis on this first debate and rightly so, but given the way it turned out, this is going to be, i think, a trip tick. We will see three important debates here. And Hillary Clinton dropped a lot of the Opposition Research that she had on donald trump, very effectively tonight. But it is going to be hard for her, or you could say put it this way, from her point of view, she got that bit of Business Done tonight. And now maybe she looks at the second and third debate as the time in which she can build a more positive case for herself that will run up against the back of donald trump may be a better debater in the second and third debate than in the first debate. Her plan may go awry. It will be fascinating to see if his advisors publicly with the media and the public express an understanding that he didnt have that great a debate. And probably more important privately. Do they make him watch tape of this debate . Do they speak to him in a way that says you need to do better. Because that is what would typically happen with a typical candidate and typical campaign staff. Donald trump is not a typical candidate in his own mind he is the best at everything. Cath tee kay, how does this change. What is going to change tomorrow on the next day and next day on the campaign trail. Not much . The Clinton Campaign will come out feeling that this was a good night for them. That she didnt come across as too cold and frosty. And that she didnt have any manager clangers. I think that the bigger issue for Hillary Clinton over the next few weeks going into the next debate is that im not sure she came out of this really giving a clear, compelling view of why you should vote for her. And its sort of the con undrum of Hillary Clinton. She has spent a lot of her life working for middle class american families. And she addressed that right at the top of the debate when she talked about income inequality in the country and she went back to it when she talked about africanamericans and legal inequality in the country. But it show doesnt come across as very compelling. And i think rather than just knock down donald trump and say why he is inadequate, her real challenge for the next debate is this is my story and this is why you should vote for me in a nut hell. It has got to be better than stronger together. Which most people dont understand anyway. She didnt make that case very forcefully tonight. Pick up on that, maureen. She clearly has to have a narrative that includes her own story. And shows you this is not simply a policy, but that she is someone who feels deeply and has a sense of why she wants to be president. Wfntion right. Because she was 67 and you know, coming from the 90s, i think she needed to start out with a really strong futuristic proposals and put herself in the future. But she seems to keep getting tripped up by the subtext of her campaign which is, its my turn, damn it, so there is a little bit of frustration cuz she thinks that these other guys, barack obama was the young prince. He served the queen in 2008. And then she had to fight off this cranky 74 year old loner from the senate. Life is not fair. No, not fairment and now shes in a deed heat with the short fingered vulgarian. So. Charlie, a little peek behind the curtain that you will enjoy. Good luck to those trump advisors who are going to try and convince him he didnt have a great debate. Mark is certainly right that they need to and will, but they have tried that during the republican debates. Were told that during the republican debates, they tried to show donald trump game fill frm the debates of moments where he could do better. But instead he just kept saying see, look how good i am at this. Look how great i am. He was saying that these moments, they thought were trouble, were his moments of triumph. So they will have fun convincing him he could have done better. Rose mark and john both, because you do, and you have to in the work that you do, following what is happening on twitter, tell me what is happening on twitter. Mark or john, you can hear me or not . Yeah, can i hear you, charlie. Can you hear us . Rose i can, yes. Okay. I think its fair to say that trumps taking a fair amount of heat on twitter. I think the view that have kind of been expressed on this program are pretty symptomatic of what a lead opinion has to say about this debate and most of the twitter that we follow as it happens, tends to be elite opinion which is to say people in our business and people in the business of politics. I dont see a lot of avid de defenses of trumps performance even among republicans. There is a little bit of that. There is seems to be a kind of consensus that is formed around the notion that trump had a bad debate but not a disastrous one. Hillary had a good debate but not a spectacular one and there is more fight to be had here. Well sum arized, yes, mark. I was going say twitter is so constant and instantaneous, if you look at some of the tweets that the Trump Campaign put out from its better moments, there is no doubt trumps best moments were good enough to win a debate. The problem is they were few and far between, compared to the moments he was on defense. Twitter reflects that it is also the case that some of that would be organic but that the Clinton Campaign as i suspected was much better organized in terms of having people out there. Let me jump in because Major Garrett, got stopped by for just 30 seconds. Major, give me a sense of the Trump Campaign which are you following. How do they see where they have to go from here . Well, they have to build on this debate performance. What they look at on the Positive Side tonight is that donald trump was confident and to their mind capable of dealing with most of these issues with a broad stroke. And the confidence and simplicity and the large sort of 30,000 foot message that they believe has galvanized all the supporters that they see at their rallies and likely will continue to galvanize the country. They dont see this debated as a downer moment for trump at all. They see it as away first of all legitimizing the candidacy only the way a president ial debate stage can. And they also believe that when Hillary Clinton dives deep into policy, their supporters and a lot of undecided voters turnoff. And when trump talks about big ideas and big concepts and big goals and his own success as a businessman, they are on the better side of that acialght. They know they will never win a policy contest with Hillary Clinton. So you know what, trump didnt even try. And trump basically didnt prepare for this debate because all he did was use the most popular risks and the kind of campaign stump speech he has been given for the last six months. Thanks also to maureen and john and cathy cay and mike allen, jeff green field and frank luntz. We close our program tonight remembering the great golfer arnie palmer. He died sunday evening in pitsberg. He was 87 years old. In 2011 i visited him at his moment in pennsylvania. It was a wonderful, wonderful visit for me. Someone who admired him and to see him up close and personal. Here are excerpts from that conversation. When did you fall in love with this game . Well, charlie, i got to start at the beginning, i guess. And its right here, about 200 yards from where we are sitting. And my father started on this golf course at latroab when he was 16 years old. And he was digging ditches and they were building the golf course. So i was raised right here. Rose you were raised with golf. Thats right. I was raised with him. I played cowboys and indians in the trees and then i started hitting the government ball with some clubs that he sawed off. And i was raised with him, really, with my father. Rose did he tell you hit it as hard as you can and you can work on accuracy late sner. He did. He said hilt it hard, boy. And go find it and hit it again. Rose served you well, didnt it . Well, it did. Yes. He was a very tough guy, charlie. He was i was the first son and first child and when my sister came along, well, she was two years younger. And i had to go to the golf course because my mother couldnt handle all the action going on. So i came from about the time i was a year and a half old with him to the golf course. And i spent the day with him here, and it just worked in naturally. And it was fun for me, being with my father and doing the things that were for a kid to do were just great. Rose and what part of your game today do you look back and say that was because of deek. Every part. Rose really. The whole part. Everything. My manners, my the things, my being was him, i wanted to emulated him, i wanted to be as tough as he was. I wanted to do the things that he did. Qurchg i wamped him. And we had some guys that worked on the golf course. In those days this was when i was born in 29,s as you know. That was depression. Rose yeah. So the golf course was manned by my father and two guys. They worked with my dad and they took me with them everywhere they went. And it was fun. And of course, pap was a guy that he had infantile paralysis when he was born, the year after he was born. And so his upper body was very strong. He chinned himself with a straight bar, and he could do either arm 10 to 15 times. An he did it every day. And he just through here and his upper body was very, very strong. And i did that too. Rose many people who have gone on to find the kind of fame and fortune you do, dont come back to their hometown. But you did and you do, and you will till the day you die. Right. And i will. I love it. Rrs i think you said Something Like this. Your hometown is not where you are from, it is who you are. So you think of your father is here. Golf was here. The things that molded you. When did you know that you could play this game well . Well, of course that was another thing about my father. That he never let me feel like i was i knew everything or anything. Erode hard. And he made me feel very conscience of the fact that i wasnt very good. And that i had to prove to him that he was good. And that hung with me. Ive always wanted to play golf with him and show him. And he said just dont ever, and he looked at me just like im looking at you, dont ever tell people how good you are. Show them. Rose do you remember the great shots and the great tournaments or do you remember the almost, where you had it and you bogied the final hole. Well, i remember the ones i lost. Yes. I remember some that i won but more importantly, i remember some ones i lost, probably as much as anything. That is something that i will never forget. And did it ruin me or did it hurt my career . I cant say that it did. It taught me something. It taught me about life a little git, how to act and how to take the bad with the good. I have had a couple of those, as you can well remember. And yes, they hurt. They really hurt. But when i reflect on it now and i look back and say, taught me something, taught me how to live and how to be a better guy and not let it defeat, be the end of my life. And i am thankful for that. I wouldnt have i would never felt good if i hadnt experienced losing. Because losing is part of your life. And its something that if i could teach people to understand that, and get to them with that, i think i would help them a lot. Rose when you think about the army that followed you, did it make a difference for you . Did it give you something that no one else had on the course . No question. It did. The fans, i loved them. And you know, my mother would be in my gallery just to give you an example. And everybody was calling it arnies army. I would look right at my mother and not remember. Rose when did you first see and play with Jack Nicholas . Well, im considerably older than jack. Rose not considerably, ten years, maybe . Almost 11. Rose okay. And first time i met jack i had heard about his golf. And his prowess. And i admired what he was doing. And i was playing in the ohio amateur, i think. And then this is before i even turned proand then had an exhibition out in ohio and he asked me to come and play with jack and he and howard sanders. And i went. I met jack for the first time. And we hit it off immediately. We became. Rose liked anticipate other, admired each other. We game friends, we were friends. But we competed. And charlie, that was about oh, so many years ago, i dont even remember now. But we have played against each other, were still friends. And hes one of the best friends that i have. Hes a guy we dont spend allots of time together. But if i felt like i needed something that he was the guy i needed to talk to, i would go see him. You agreed that the rivalry that took place is part of the magic that everybody says made modern golf, you television, Jack Nicholas. Well, i dont know, i hope so. I hope that it helped. I think about television. I think about ike. I think about jack. I think about hogan. And how that influenced me a little bit. And the people that had an affect on my life, and certainly the relationship with jack was a good one. But it was competitive. And its still today. Rose how is it competitive today . We do business. He builds courses, you build courses. We build golf courses and we dont agree, not a great deal. But when it comes to something thats good, we agree. If we have something that we need to do as a team, we do it. Rose the competition, did it make you both better . You and jack. I think so. I think it i think i know it helped me to have jack playing the way he did. Rose because youre such a competitor, therefore having somebody who is going to challenge you made you better. Exactly. Rose and of course the fact that he was so determined. And he had a personality that was very good for what he was doing. And he he could. What was that personality . He shot everything off. Rose yeah. And played golf. And he was very good at that. He could concentrate on what he was doing. I have never seen him, maybe in the times that i have known him all our livers for the best part, i have never seen him waiver on the golf course in competition. The only time that ever happened or that i can recall is when we would be playing in a tournament and we would be playing together. And we would start trying to beat each other. And that sometimes it happened this way. There were occasions when we got to playing each other so much, someone else came along and beat both of us. And that has happened. 18 majors. Makes him the greatest golfer of all time. Ness well, until somebody shows me a better game, it makes him the best. You get credit for changing golf. The magnetism you brought there, and people say that that is much more important than the number of tournaments you want or when you want them, that because of you and because of the style and because of the drama you brought to the game, that you made it so exciting and you also brought new fans to the game. And that that is a legacy that matches whatever tournaments you want. Does it match it for you . Well, i hope that i have done a little bit of what you are saying i have done. The game is so fantastic. And people who get into it love it so much and the fact that if i have had a little bit to do with some of the enjoyment that i see today, i am pleased with that. There is throw game like it. You know, you go out there and youty it up on the firstty, charlie. Yes. It is you. Yeah. A golf ball in the golf course. And there you go, and if you can handle it, go at it, do it. And do it good. But what other game, there is always someone else in the other game. The guy hitting the ball to you. Or you throwing the ball somewhere. Or Something Else that, there are other people involved in. In golf. You are the person inths thats doing it. You are playing yourself and the course. Thats it. And you cant change it. Thats the way it is. Rose gary player and others have said, all of us should give 20 of our earnings to arnie because without him, there wouldnt have been the endorsement, there wouldnt have been the attention there wouldnt have been the television contracts and it would not have been nearly as good for us as it has been. Well, i think you or gary or anybody that says that, but the truth is that its such a great game and it has been so much fun for me to be a part of it. I think about what influenced me, and what made me do some of the things that are you talking about. Like the golf associations from when i started right here in the western pennsylvania area and played in the west End Golf Association tournaments. And then theu sga. The golf soars, what those people, whether yoliked them or disliked them, what they have done to make the game so great is part of what made me do what i wanted to do and have the teuntd to do what i wanted to do. To play the game. The history of the game. And you know, those things are so important to me that people, who talk about the galleries, people that have inspired me to do what i did an to win and to have the pleasures that i have had in my life, my wife, winning. Our kit, my wife now, what he had they have done. How they have helped me do what i have wanted to do, is so porntd. And how i am most grateful for that. And i could spend the rest of my life just thanking people for the contributions that they have made. And the fact that i have had a big success. This is charlie, this is my president ial corner. This is the things that happened with my various president s that i was associated with, and spent some time with. Lets just talk about them. First over there there is richard nixon. Did he play golf. Yeah, he did, yeah. Gerald ford here. Right. Good athlete. Yeah. Played football. And he was a great guy. Loved golf. You can tell by the laugh. This is a conference that nixon called, his friends to talk about how to negotiate the war. You were considered among a friend to help him. Kissinger, the whole grounds. How to negotiate the ends of the vietnam war. Yeah. This is george bush 41. Hes a great guy. But he played bad golf. Very. Here is ronald reagan. These are Like White House dinners. Here again, with the bush, here again with shall it who is the lady in white . She happens to be the queen. And here we go with some trophies. Various ryder cup, open championship. How many people tell us about the ryder cup. St a Great International competition. There is more enthusiasm for it. Well, we hope so. I have always been a big thinker that the more International Competition we can create through supports, the better relationships well have with countries. The more Common Ground we can find, the more Common Ground, the betser off were going to be when push comes to shove. Thats right. Thats the name of the game. Here are you with bill clinton. Clinton here, clinton here. Now he loved golf. Hes a great guy. Whatever your politics are. What is his golf . Well, the mall just didnt have a zip code on it. Wherever was driving the ball it wasnt necessarily the same zip code. Thats right. This is a letter he and i were playing golf one day and you can see the date. Its 65. Rose can i read it . Sure. Its dde which is dwight david eisenhower, getsyburg where he retired, august 149, 1965. Dear arnie, enclosed is payment for my bet, and never was there one more reluctantly paid. Also attached is a picture cut from the philadelphia enquiesher, it indicateds deject. Please remember a couple of accidents will not be important a year from now. Will you win a lot more tournaments and forget all the woe caused by bridges, rocks and complaints about a tree. Love to win and keep hitting them. All the best, as ever, dde. Pretty nice. There is 10. The bet was what . The bet was, he bet me i would win the pga championship. And i didnt. A hell of a life. A lot in it. It was full. Rose for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs. Org and charlie rose. Com. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Man its like holy mother of comfort food. Ion. Kastner throw it down. Its noodle crack. Patel you have to be ready for the heart attack on a platter. Crowell okay, im the bacon guy. Man oh, i just did a jig every time i dipped into it. Man 2 it just completely blew my mind. Woman it felt like i had a mouthful of raw vegetables and dry dough. Sbrocco oh, please. I want the Dessert First [ laughs ] i told him he had to wait