Deeper level, and thats what i mean. Its not just skipping a stone across the surface of the water. And then digging deep, you know, those grooves, when you love r b and rock and roll as much as i do and you get that groove going, its like digging a big trench and just sitting in it, you know. Rose brooks and raitt, when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose david brooks is here, a columnist for the New York Times. His most recent book the road to character will be released in paperback in september. He has been writing extensively about the president ial election and the unprecedented candidacy of trump. 50 Republican FormerNational Security officials signed an open letter warning trump would be the most reckless president in American History. Republican senator Susan Collins announced she would not vote for trump. I am pleased to have him here to talk about that and many other things. Welcome. Good to be back at the table. Rose good to have you back at the the table i must say. You spend your time trying to make sense of the campaign. What sense have you made of it . Donald trump has given me a reason to live. Rose challenged you, has he . Dovetailing away from politics for a few years but he brings it right back. I spent the first half to have the year writing six columns on why he would not get the republican nomination. Decided hell be inaugurated, dont worry, this will not happen. Then the last four or five months trying to figure out why i got it wrong. Rose why did you figure it out . There is dislocation. There is a loss of dignity. A lot of opiate use. Rose to relieve the pain of discontent and broken families . Everything is indivisible from a loss of pride and, so, it used to be very possible to say, i may not be the richest guy on earth or the most famous person on earth, but people can count on me. I have dignity, i do my job, im the sort of person in this community who is upstanding. A lot of people have lost the dignity code, and that becomes the crisis of status and selfworth, and then there is a sense that everyones giving me the shaft my employer gave me a shaft, i was in a Job Training Program and they gave me the shaft its just no trust. Rose everything i depended on let me down. Some of it, to a larger degree than i anticipated, a lot of it is the reality tv consumer culture thats undermined the ethos. The ethos of working class dignity was almost anticapital because you didnt have to be the richest or have the most, it was a code of responsibility. But the celebrity of Honey Boo Boo and all the tv shows is to have dignity you must have the celebrity score fast. So the idea of working your way through and being a respectable member of society, thats ethos has gone away. We have a crisis of status mixed in with economics and family breakdown and social solidarity, and just so many people falling through the cracks. Rose if youre feeling all of that and thats happening to you, youre looking for what . First of all, youre looking for a sense of tribal identity. If anybody wants a good book on this subject, there is a book called hillbilly elogj and he describes intense tribalism. He describes it within the family, it might be totally screwed up, but if anybody outside the family attacks, death to them, violence. So that intense sense of tribal, we take care of our own. Ad i mentioned a column a couple of weeks ago, the british have a song called we take care of our own and in the verses it sounds patriotic and prideful, you know, we take care of our own, but in the other part of the song it sounds almost racist, we take care of our own but we dont take care of people who are not like our own. So this crisis of solidarity, theyre pulling in. Rose and they want to be with their own. The suspicion is of the outsiders who are not playing by the rules. The other thing were saying within the communities is Donald Trumps voters are making more than 70,000 a year. They are not in the primaries, they are not poor. Theyre upper end, theyre the richer people in poor places. A lot are saying, hey, i became an accountant, i played by the rules and paid my mortgage, all these people didnt do that and were giving them benefits, so im going to find somebody whos going to fix that problem, that the responsible people are getting the shaft. At least thats the perception. Rose why donald trump . He appeals tomas clinety, the sense of closedness, the global hostile and he speaks in a different way. I ran into a woman in western pennsylvania, and she was going to a Memorial Service for her mom who died elderly and was relieved she was not going to speak. She said, im relieved, were not word people. That resonated. In this modern society, Information Age economy, it really pays to be a word person. If you feel youre not one of those people, then society is sort of rigged against you, its super tough. If youre the sort of person who finds dignity in working with your hands, the status system is rigged against you, and here comes donald trump who speaks in these short burst sentences, extremely strong, extremely masculine and has contempt for, you know, people like me who are word people, and, so, suddenly the other thing, the final thing to be said the theyre not naive about who this guy is. They see that he shoots his mouth off, they see that he lies, but they say, all things considered, im still going to be for that guy because at least hes change, at least hes he understands nation and a lot of those people dont understand how much pride i get in my own life for being attached to the United States of america. Rose he also comes to them and says, im a winner, you know im a winner. When i see him, i see fear like that Republican Convention speech. But a lot of people see optimism, make America Great again, success, im a winner. So the other thing that and this i find with republican operatives, i see all the candidates ive covered in my life havent crossed the basic threshold, moral character, psychology threshold. I see trump as a unique figure whos morally outrageous and outside the threshold but most of the people who support him dont see that. They say clinton has pluses and minuses, trump has pluses and minuses, theyre both in the same ballpark. Rose theyre all politicians. Yes. I see this unique figure whos unqualified to be president , thats not what they see, and frankly some republican members of congress think that way. It was so funny, the republicanle convention, you would be in the hallway and run into a senator, they would shuffle over with their embarrassed look and bodies doing contortions because theyre doing the trump support thing and they have a defensive preemptive comment, aaah, i think it will work out okay, and please like me. So they have all these defense mechanisms. But you know, i think over the last few weeks, donald trump has hollowed out the ground from which they walk. From the paul ryans who says i have disgust for what he does but i still like the person, that opinion is being destroyed by donald trump himself. His actions are so outrageous, at some point you have to say, no, its the guy. Rose do you think there is a moral choice for voters . Ive talked about the traits of narcissism but also looking at his speech patterns and there is a psychological concept called the flight of ideas and a person who suffers from this is related to a manic state. They hear a word then they have an association, another association and another association. As one psychiatrist says compare donald trump speech patterns to a Robin Williams monologue except put in insults where there would be jokes, and its sort of bing, bing, bing, bing. I felt queasy doing public psychoanalysis of this guy, but thats in part because our language has become so demoralized, its hard for me to do moral analysis of the guy. But it occurred to me after i had done the psychological dressup that i have a moral objection to the guy. Lying is wrong and lying that much is wrong. Not having basic empathy for mrs. Khan or a baby at a rally or for anybody is wrong. Its a moral wrong but we try not to use the moral categories because it seems self righteous. But to be honest my objections are more moral than psychological. Rose do you think for republicans, people who have written this, in fact Michael Morell said at this table last night that he had to speak out because he thought not to speak out in a sense was not to be as moral as you had to be at this time. I think this is its sort of a joe mccarthy moment. Rose where are you and where were you. And you will be remembered. And the sentence i had is if youre not in revolt, youre in cahoots. So if youre for a Political Office holder, its a tough call, but i think years hence this will be remembered and, when your grandkids think about you, theyll remember this moment. Rose does he remind you of anyone . You know, the Burr Los Coney references are a bit germane. The putin references are a little less germane. But i would say in distinction of putin, putin has a plan and self discipline and strategy, i dont think trump has those things. Rose other than winning. Yeah, but the berlusconi references are higher. The way, again, to go to the verb yag, it always comes back to himself. If he has to utter more than an eightword sentence, it loops back to self. And my interpretation of that is they have this debate in the psychological community, narcissists are secretly insecure and are they promoting themselves or are they super secure, and a better distinction, are they fragile. You can be high selfesteem but also fragile. Rose and hes fragile . The need to lash out at every instance suggests fragility, not security. I watched your show a bunch of years ago and you had a bunch of iraq veterans. Zach was one at the table. Rose about fallujah. Yes, and their voices were so quiet because they had been through something and they didnt need to prove anything to anybody, and thats the opposite of donald trump. His voice doesnt have that selfassured quietness of i know who i am. Rose what are the moral failures . There is an hour or two of bigotry. Rose as someone said of the ten commandments, tell me your five favorite laughter bigotry is putting on to a group the sins of a couple. When he wants to ban all muslims, thats the dictionary definition of it. The lack of empathy rose what if someone said to you, and this has been said to me, its an opening bid by him. That is what he knows, a transactional life. So everything for him is ill start here but ill end up here and thats what i intended to do. Dont make a moral judgment of me because of where i start, make a moral judgment of maybe where i end. What that argument is asking us to do is suspend morality and reduce everything to a cash nexus. Rose thats how he seases ss the world, dont you think. Yeah, but do we give in rose no, im asking for insight. Thats the world that hes lived and thats what the art of the deal is about, whoever wrote it. How he got this way, i dont know. But one of the clinton the best clinton ad makes sheer is he pollutes the moral atmosphere where we raise our kids. Rose so two people in a powerful position with enormous influence not only about our lives but about our future, what does that say about that . It indicts a crisis of solidarity, as i said, and the important distinction, maybe contempt one might have for trump with the trump voters. To me hes the wrong answer to the right question. Theyre right to want Something Different but hes the only thing theyve got, but that doesnt mean we have to have actual contempt rose is he the only one that can fill the expectation . Has Reality Television become so much a part of the reality of life for so many people . Yeah. Rose i grew up in a small town in North Carolina and i go back and i understand some of the frustration because its an area where the economy has gone other places. Its gone to asia because of textiles and other places because of tobacco. Theyre looking for other places to have what their parents had. I think there could be another possibility. One of the debates is between globalists who want to add multilateral institutions and free trade. Rose this is the openclosed debate. Right. America solved this problem. We had a strong nationalist, ardently patriotic, but based on the idea were a universal country and anybody could come here as long as they assimilate and become part of america, and Theodore Roosevelt was very patriotic. There is much pride in North Carolina and virginia. You cant go very far without talking about sports, dignity you get from the pittsburgh pirates, et cetera, but there is also the national pride. That had to be played upon but it has not been. Coming up with a new better form of nationalism better than trump nationalism which goes back to Theodore Roosevelt, aired rnt nationalism, he was very patriotic with a strong sense of masculinity where men appeal. Rose where is that candidate . I have been waiting all my life for that candidate. He seems a breath away. John mccain was going to be that candidate. Rudy giuliani was going to b. But then they get in the clutches of the republican orthodoxy and decide they cant let government do anything. My shorthand for american politics is we have one liberal movement that believes in using government to enhance equality. We have a conservative movement using government to create more equality. Then using government to enhance more freedom. In American History, there is been hamilton, up to t. R. , enhancing social mobility to give poor boys and girls the chance to rise and succeed. Rose thats the party you want to see. There are six of us who still believe that. laughter the wig party. But for republicans to embrace it, they would have to say were going to use government and create Early Childhood programs, summer jobs, infrastructure programs and use government to help people become better capitalists, but were not going to interfere as much as some of the progressives want us to. Thats a big hole waiting to be filled. Rose in one column you said the debate of the size and role of government is not as important as the openclose nature of it. How do you feel to trade, people, ideas. American nationalism unlike european nationalism is our nationalism was open. We believed america was the last best hope of earth precisely because everyone could come as long as they sign on to our culture and civilization but weve lost that sort of unifying civilization. Rose open to both ideas, people and opportunity. Yeah, and it was a certain mentality that first they came from europe and saw flocks of geese that took 45 minutes to take off, saw oysters and clams bigger than theyd seen and had two thoughts, one was that gods plans for humanity would be completed here and they would get rich in the process. So that created moral materialism and energy. They noticed asset leers were moving west through ohio and North Carolina they would find a perfectly good valley but keep going because they assumed there was Something Better over the next ridge. When people around the world look at america, thats what they looked at, that sense of future orientation seeing the present from the Vantage Point of the future. Rose are we more that way than any other country on the earth . I still think so. Even for all the doom and gloom, i would still want to be us. Politics and leadership became a profession rather than a vocation. Rose what you did for life. Lincoln had general mcclellan and he wanted him to be more aggressive. He goes to mcclellans house and waits in the living room. You can imagine that. The butler says, well, general mcclellan will be down in a few minutes. They wait, and the butler comes down and says general mccullen has retired. He will see you later. And the man with lincoln said, you must be outraged and not to be ego and status above everything, whatever i have to do to get this guy to be a better general, i lo do it. I have been thinking about what this says about the whole culture and those of us in the elite media, i think weve become overindividualized and not as Community Oriented as we should be. Weve become too utilitarian and not as moral as we should be. Weve become not as spiritual as we should be. So the culture has sort of shifted away from certain things that really undergirded it. Rose if one of the two candidates talked about those values, do you think they would hit a resonance . Totally. I wrote a book that came out about 18 months ago about morality and love and all these mushy things. Rose is it the one in which you talk about how i talk about the value of suffering and i talk a lot about love. The book tour, sometimes on a tour youre brought into a Conference Center and there is a bunch of we may fall into this category but a bunch of middleaged white guys in suits, and they have been talking about money, and im wanting to talk about georgia elliott and her deep Emotional Trauma and tears. And i walk into a room of emotionally void audience on the face of the earth and thought this wont go well. But when you Start Talking about a life deeply led the way George Elliott or dorothy day lived it, they lock in, and there is a quality of silence there that i had never heard in my speaking career, and thats because people are so hungry to at least have a forum to think about the things that matter most to them, and they know whats important, they dont have the words and no ones talking to them in those terms, the way Martin Luther king used to. So th