Simon de pury talking about the art market today. Its essential to always visit all the exhibits, the art fairs, previews and you have to stay in it. You cant take a step back and you dont want to because its so enjoyable, you can never get tired of it or blase. You cant ever see too much art. Rose we conclude with jodi hauptman, the curator talking about the edgar degas exhibition of modern art. He is the great chronicler of the ballet. But he was relentlessly experimental and thats what the exhibition seeks to show, the way he defied convention, reached for something new and, in that, thats where his influence is on art of the 20th century and artists of today. Rose richard engel, simon de pury and jodi hauptman, when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose there are new developments this week in the fight against i. S. I. S. In a report airing this sunday on nbcs on assignment, you will learn the identities of 15 americans who have joined up with the jihadis. It is the latest investigation by richard engel, chief Foreign Correspondent for nbc news and a friend of this program. Welcome. Good to be here as always. Rose take me to the beginning. So, for us, the beginning was about two months ago in southern turkey. We met an i. S. I. S. Defector, someone who claimed to be an i. S. I. S. Defector, who was part of their security division, and he said he grew disillusioned with i. S. I. S. , thought the group was too brutal and too va sage and he wanted to escape. But you dont just walk away from a group like i. S. I. S. , youre not allowed to leave, and if you go to another country and you have been associated with i. S. I. S. , youre a fugitive. So he wanted to have something to trade for his new life, some collateral. So he says that he stole a thumb drive, a flash drive he didnt know what was on it, he just knew it was important, valuable stuff that i. S. I. S. Kept very close watch on rose gave it to you . He gave it to us, and we opened it up and there were thousands and thousands of documents on this file, and a lot of them were duplicates. They were folders inside of folders. They were in arabic. We spent a lot of time going through it. We eventually worked with west points combating Terrorism Center and were able to not only authenticate the documents but coal lat coalate them, identifid parents and what they were were the i. S. I. S. Personnel registration files for over 4,000 foreign fighters. So when foreign fighters would arrive in i. S. I. S. Territory, like when you land at the airport in many countries, you fill out a form, name, address, et cetera, except the i. S. I. S. Form was relatively detailed. Real name, emergency phone contacts, the countries you visited, special skills, personality, blood type, a full dossier. We sorted through these and focused on the 15 u. S. Residents among this cache of documents. Rose you will reveal the names on the Program Sunday night. Yes. We started researching. We got a team of producers together. We were working with a former f. B. I. Investigator and we set up a motel room with a board on it and started printing out the names and dossiers and photographs and tried to identified patterns and canvassed the country. Rose what parent did you find what pattern did you find . We identified a cell. There was a family group that had become radicalized in the United States. We identified a 16th i. S. I. S. Member who wasnt even on our list, and what happened was this husband and wife got together and became increasingly radicalized, and then they brought in their her little brother, and then the three of them traveled overseas, and the f. B. I. Consistently, we found, didnt respond to clues. People in the community knew, people in their families knew what was happening to them, that they were becoming more and more dangerous and radicalized. Rose so what did the f. B. I. Do and what did you do that they hadnt done . These documents were from 2013 and 2014, so these were people, americans and others, who had left this country or their country of origin and left and entered syria to join up the group that was becoming i. S. I. S. At the time. These all represent intelligence failures because, if the f. B. I. Had known about these people or stopped them, they would have never ended up joining i. S. I. S. And filling out their registration for. So these were the ones who got through the net. These are the ones who made it into i. S. I. S. Territory. Rose but have they talked to the parents . So once they got through, clearly they made it, they managed to get out of the country. The families that we had spoken to had been contacted by the f. B. I. , but what we found is it didnt extend the investigation by the f. B. I. , as far as we could tell, didnt extend very far beyond the immediate parents. We spoke to former teachers, we spoke to neighbors, we spoke to friends, and in many cases, none had been contacted. Rose they didnt know about the child that had gone to syria . No, none of them. Rose no teachers knew, no friends knew . No, in most cases, people did not know. Rose the parents knew . The parents did know. Rose they all knew they had a child fighting in syria . Yes, they did. Rose where was the point of entry into syria . All these files were from turkey. Rose right. The files had come from an i. S. I. S. Commander, according to the defector who gave it to us, who had a role with the i. S. I. S. Customs and Border Crossing division. So the people coming in through several crossing points at southern Turkish Border and northern syria. Rose what does the f. B. I. Say now . The f. B. I. , and we interviewed a Senior Justice Department official, said theyve gotten better, that they are preventing more americans from leaving this country to try and join i. S. I. S. , that the number of americans and other foreign nationals who are going to join the socalled Islamic State has gone down. But, of course, theres a flip side to that. So if the u. S. Law enforcement, in general, is better at locking the door and keeping them from going to join i. S. I. S. , that means youve locked them inside this country and theyre here, and that is a concern that Law Enforcement officials have that, okay, they might not be leaving but theyre still here. Rose the point everybody is worried about, would they go to syria and learn all kinds of techniques in terms of bombing and using destructive weapons, then come back here because they have an american passport, slip in and do damage. The bigger concern now, frankly, is these 15 who went and the one we identified who wasnt in the document, the 16th, theyre already gone. Their names now are known, pretty soon they will be known to everyone. Theyre going to have a very difficult time ever coming back to this country and doing some sort of violent act. The question is what about the ones who never try to leave . And i. S. I. S. Has changed its message, saying dont bother coming here, just stay at home. But that said, it wasnt a huge number, considering the u. S. Population, to find among 4,000plus files, the fact that we only found 15 names, i think people could take some comfort in that, that its not nearly the problem per capita of most european countries. Rose what were the shared characteristics of the 15 . Lost. People who wanted to find something, who were depressed, who were looking for meaning. I think these were the kind of people who would have joined a cult in the years past or joined up to some sort of fringe religious group, a charismatic leader. Rose what shaped their thinking . Was it online . Was it a mosque . Its a combination of factors. Everyones always looking for where did they drink the special sauce or where did they get the injection of evil. Yeah. Rose yeah. Its a scale. People can get radicalized online, radicalize themselves more. You meet up with an individual in a cell, got married, drive themselves and work themselves up into more and more of a frenzy. But in most of the cases we found, seems like their initial contact with this ideology was through their propaganda. Rose whats the status quo in first syria and then iraq . Were reading about, one, some degree of build up of the american effort to help retake mosul on the one hand. On the other hand, you see today there was a report in syria about i. S. I. S. Trying to retake palmerra. I think its still a very confused policy. I think there is not one clear military strategy. The u. S. Has been building up forces slowly, but if you look at the numbers, theyre tiny, and if you look at the troop increases in iraq, if youve noticed, the white house goes to Great Lengths to say how small they are. There are only x number of troops you know, 412 or 25 here. Rose the latest is 250 special forces. 250 into sir. 250 into. Before that a specific number was given. Two messages there. One is to the American Public that were not rolling down a slippery slope and getting involved. Rose its incremental. But its also to balance the competing interests in the region. Iran doesnt want u. S. Troops back in iraq. There is something of a red line. If the u. S. Suddenly increased the number of boots on the ground in iraq, then we would potentially be facing violence on a scale that we are not seeing right now because iran says, okay, if a small number of troops help, join in to fight i. S. I. S. , then iran can tolerate that, but if suddenly american troops. Rose iran is an enemy of i. S. I. S. Iran is an enemy of i. S. I. S. Is also a red line for russia, if a lot of american troops started going into syria and for iran. So there are so many regional efforts and regional interests that are trying to be counterbalanced. You want to support the u. S. Wants to support the kurds, but only so much that it doesnt completely provoke the turks. The u. S. Policy right now is trying to thread this incredibly small needle between russia and iran and the kurds and turkey, and the result is a policy that is still somewhat muddled. Rose what would the turks do if the United States even more strongly with weaponry supported the peshmerga . Well, there is the peshmerga, there is the y. P. G. , the different kurd groups, and they dont all see eye to eye. Now turkey is fighting its own military campaign against kurds who are inside turkish territory. So its not even that the u. S. Has a united policy about what to do with the kurds. We have three or four different policies just for the kurds, and i think thats emblematic of the larger strategy against i. S. I. S. Just with the kurds, we have different strategies for different kurdish factions. Rose do you think they will retake mosul before this Administration Hands over power to the next, january 20, or january whatever it is, 2017 . Its possible. Rose possible. Possible. I dont think youre going to see lots of american troops there, but it is possible. I. S. I. S. Is not that strong. Its a bit of a everybody hates it. The group is losing territory. Its ideology is generally loathed. I like to think of i. S. I. S. As a virus. Viruses are strong because the host is weak, and right now the hosts in that region are weak. Rose the government in syria and iraq. The government in syria, because of all the divisions i have been talking about between the kurds and turks, between the russians and the iranians and the u. S. , the divisions between the Syrian Opposition groups, because all of these fractures have weakened the host, the body, this disgusting virus, i. S. I. S. , has managed to flourish. All the people im speaking to, not all but most, say the way out is through russia, and there are serious conversations going on now through geneva Peace Process between the u. S. And the russians, and the way i think that rose its broader than a cease fire. Broader than a cease fire. And the way they seem to see the way out of this is the following, that Bashar Alassad gets to stay temporarily. He stays in power in syria. The russians help him reestablish his authority, which has already been happening. Rose within a certain portion of the country. And they have been making some progress. Then there is a transition phase that, over the next 18 months or so, theres a transition phase to a new government. Bashar alassad goes and perhaps even leaves the country and lives happily ever after and is in a villa somewhere that we dont hear from, and there is a new government that contains many of the remnants of the old regime, and rose and some of the moderate forces. Yes. Rose and jihadists or not. Probably. Moderate j jihadists. But not i. S. I. S. , lets say. Once youve removed Bashar Alassad in a smooth transition, that the russians can say it wasnt libya once over, the iranians can say there was a smooth transition of power that looked like a process they werent going to accept, that once Bashar Alassad and his inner circumstance are removed, then you can have a new government that looks like the old government but one everyone can agree upon. A little like world war ii. You blame hitler, goring and a couple of other top nazis and everyone else gets off. You say hitler, his fault, the rest to have the regime gets a pass. Rose amazing stuff. Thank you for coming. My pleasure. Rose richard engel, on assignment nbc news sunday night, check your local time. May is a busy time for the art world, spring auctions and art fairs bring dealers and art lovers together right here in new york. No one knows that world better than simon de pury, the legendary auctioneer, the former chairman of sothebys europe and the cofounder of the auction house now known as phillips, discusses his book the auctioneer adventures in the art trade. Im pleased to have simon at the table, welcome. Thank you very much. Rose i love the title to hav the title of the book, adventures in the aired trade. I have been privileged to be in the art world 45 years professionally speaking. When you love art, its a little bit like you love candies, you want to work in the candy store. Rose so you worked in the art store. Exactly. Rose how did it begin . I grew up in switzerland which is a small city, but a city with a fantastic museum and also a great art fair, and so very early i would go to museums, i would go to Art Galleries and i loved to draw and paint when i was a child and that awakened my interest in art. Rose you thought about becoming a painter. I initially wanted to become an artist. Rose youre saying artist and painter are the same. It would have been a painter because i was not going to be a sculptor, i was really going to payment and draw. But when i finished school, i went to japan, to tokyo, to the Tokyo Academy of arts where i studied japanese brush painting and a technique of paint with japanese minerals. Rapidly, i realized i wasnt going to be the great artist that i hoped i would be. Rose did your father give you advice . My father was a little concerned that i wanted to pursue an artistic career. Ple. I did attempt to study law but that was a disaster which only lasted a few weeks, and, so, when my pants didnt know what to do with me anymore my parents didnt know what to do with me yifn more, my mother called a top dealer and asked can you talk to this young boy, its a desperate case, can you talk some sense into him . Rose what did he say . He asked me a question. He said is your approach to art physical or intellectual. I told him its purely physical. He said, in that case, you must in no circumstances study the history of art, you must become an art dealer. Rose yes. I said, well, that sounds good, but how do you go about it . Then he gave me some precise advice and told me where to go and where to have my first job and so on. Initially, i followed his exact advice and i am still eternally grateful for him put meg on the right track. Rose what makes a good eye . I think a good eye is seeing lots of things. I think the more and more and more you see things, the more you begin to distinguish whats good from whats not good, because i always think that auction houses are an amazing place to train your eye, because even if somebodys a secretary in the porcelain department of one of the big houses, they see a lot of porcelain day in and day out, at the end of the day, something sticks to you and you begin to distinguish whats good, and whats good automatically leaps at you. Rose what about study, in fact, the study of art itself . Can it give you an eye . I think you need to study as well. Its a combination between the physical experience of looking at a lot of art, but then of course you have to do your homework, and if you are attracted to artwork and all that, you want to read about it and find out more of the background about it. Rose what fascinates me about ron water, hes said to have a great eye and his brother was thought to have a better eye than he did, was the fact he started early. He wanted to be a collector and whatever he could afford he brought. You picked the person with the best eye that i possibly know, absolutely extraordinary, because he has an eye right across the board. He is able to guy best medieval ivory and the most stunning sculpture, really right across the board he has an eye for what is the best. But i think you can, very often you start as a collector very early because its a basic instinct we all have, whether we start collecting cars or dolls, but still i think, when you are a collector like arnold is, its like being an artist because its an artistic pursuit in itself. Rose talk about auctioneering, though. You are very good at. This you have been there. There is a picture of you. People talk about you. Give us a sense of what it is to be good. When i started working at sothebys way, way back, i saw one thing that distinguishes an Auction Company more than any other gallery is doing auctions. I thought i want to become an auctioneer and told my colleagues i would love to start conducting auctions. Some colleagues gave me the chance. When you do that, you do a mock auction where you simulate with all your colleagues everything that could possibly go wrong in an auction. If you survive that, then youre going to do your first real auction. Rose auctioneers are superstars in the art world, arent they . I dont know if they are, but auctioneers always have to try to obtain the best possible result on