Medium is. But if you look across everything we do now, it encompasses a pretty wide range which is cool. You have messaging ands what z app are two of the largest services in the world, superprivate, onetoone, you and your wife, your husband, children, all the way up to facebook and instagram which are primarily sharing with large groups of people. Rose politics and Facebook Live when we continue. Funding for charl wree rose is provided by the following. And by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and nrvetion services worldwide. From our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. We begin this evening with our continuing coverage of election 2016. Republican president ial candidate ted cruz scored a strong victory in yesterdays wisconsin primary. The outcome dealt a significant blow to frontrunner Donald Trumps path to the nomination it could also pave the way to a contested republican convention. Three weeks ago the media said wisconsin was a perfect state for donald trump. But the hardworking men and women of wisconsin stood and campaigned tireilessly to make sure that tonight was a victory for every american. cheers and applause . Rose on the democratic side Bernie Sanders beat Hillary Clinton by 14 points. Do not tell secretary clinton shes getting a little nervous. And i dont want her to get more nervous. But i believe weve got an excellent chance to win new york and a lot of delegates in that state. Rose joining me now from washington is jeane cummings, she is the Political Editor for the wall street journal here in new york, the host of bloombergs with all all due respect requesting and managing editor of Bloomberg PoliticsMark Halperin and John Heilemann and if you have not seen the circus, you see should see that too. And mike barnic el, political contributor to msnbc. Mark, i will begin with you. So what did wisconsin wa, did wisconsin change . Every 30 episodes im on here i like to quote one of my fathers joke and this one. There only two people understand how the International Economic system works and unfortunately they disagree. There is so much am big uity now amongst very smart political observers in the game, of journalists, people watching from afar without know a lot about what everything, what everything means right now. What wisconsin did on the republican side was put donald trump on the defensive. Made it math mathically more difficult to get a majority, although not impossible. And it made ted cruz the prime aero upon ent. John kasich is more marginalized now than before. It gives cruz a chance to continue to have momentum coming too the northeast. On the democratic side, it may give Bernie Sanders a chance to extend his fight, extend his streak of victories and made it possible for him if he wins new york to continue along and to continue to win and make it harder for Hillary Clinton to claim that race is over. Rose has Bernie Sanders winning in new york become more possible . I think it does. Itive goes him momentum and puts her more on the defensive and it showed his ability to win in a state with some diversity. And it showed her inability to put him away. I mean theres really the clintons can spin wisconsin all they want. There is really no reason why a frontrunner shouldnt be winning wisconsin against someone who math mathically has a very tough time getting a majority it is still a challenge to do well in new york but the clintons have been worried about new york for longer than they were worried about wisconsin. They know sanders message will play very well here. And she has to worry now that if he does win new york, that he will go all the way to california with a real credibility and real argument to say im still in this. Rose and good momentum. And voting groups that support him come into play as well. Still a big delegate challenge for him because shes got to lead and the democratic roles make it hard to catchup to someone with a lead. But he will be able to go to california and i have started to think as long as the republicans are going to have a contested convention, it makes it easier for sanders to say hey, our convention should be contested too. Let the delegates have their voice in philadelphia as the republican delegates will have their voice in cleveland. Rose you would add to that, sir. Well, that was very comprehensive, very comprehensive. Rose would you agree . Well there is no question that the other thing on the republican side is that what happened in wisconsin is emboldened the never trump forces. And look, theyve been looking for a blue print to try to stop trump for awhile. Rose is there a blue print now . There is a little bit more of a clue as to first of all it gives him a sense it can be beaten. There are states on march 15th where people spend tens of millions of dollars and in this state, a combination of a determined effort on the part of the republican establishment of wisconsin in the form of scott walker, in the form of much of the elected establishment there. Rose radio, talk radio hosts on the conservative side. And strategic voting. Voters who in many cases did not particularly want to vote for ted cruz, were not particularly proted cruz but looked at the landscape and said what we really want is donald trump not to get to 1237 delegates. We have to stop him and so we will hold our nose and voted for the person who has thest clans to win here in the hopes of playing the long game and getting to cleveland and then having a whole new election on the convention floor. Rose i think the idea of donald of ted cruz is accept ability seems to be growing to me. Jeanne cummings, what are the lessons from last night . Well, i think wisconsin is a very unique example. I agree with john that there are lessons that they can take from it. But im not sure many of them are going to apply in a place like new york where the republicans dont control the establishment. The other thing you had in wisconsin is you had an electorate that not only was sophisticated in its voting practices, but makes i habit of voting. They have one offed highest voter turnouts of any state. And so theyve been through so many recalls and so many elections up there theyre like this welloiled machine. So it that was a pretty perfect storm to go up against donald trump. Now that said, cruzs victory there is very porntd because the very important because the math now is such that donald trump really cant get 1,237 bound delegates. He is going to have to rely upon some of the delegates that are not bound in order to get over the hill. And that is, of course, where hes been weak and where hes been on a sharp learning curve. And already ted cruz is in colorado, picking up some of those unbound delegates because his machine is so much better than anything donald trump has. Rose this san old question. But you have seen Many Political races. When you watch whats happening this year, and trump, and the tra ject ore hes been on, and what happened in wisconsin, its a bit like what marks father said. Its crazy. Oh, its beyond crazy. But it is endlessly fascinating. The past ten months have been endlessly fascinating to me because they i have tended to look at it from the other side of the line. Are you looking at it from delegate selection, gene is looking at it from jeane is looking from what happens 1237, does he get there. I look at it from the objects of their attention, the voters, the people out there. And the volatility in this country among the electorate. And the feelingses about the country, where the country is headed. And its a sense of you get clearly a sense of anger and a sense of optimism depending on who you are speaking with. You go to the sanders crowds and there is a vibrant, young and a sense of optimism that bernie can change this. You go to the trump rallies, even the cruz rallies and you get a sense of frustration and anger that someone is taking our country from us. Whatever perception they might have of what their country means, whatever definition they have, someone is taking their country from us and donald trump is Strong Enough to get that country back from us. It has been a tenmonth lesson in changing culture in this country. Rose everybody thought that donald trump would turn president ial. I didnt see that last night. And the whole idea was that now he needed to show that he was more president ial. And the circumstances of wisconsin are less likely to produce that because it goes back to his core, this say contest, its about winning. And ill do all these other things, folks, after i win. You could look at the last three weeks and focus on the ways where hes not been more president ial and where he has created problems for himself on twitter and through some interviews but you also look at his speech to apac which got overshadowed because brussels happened the next morning. But he gave a pretty good speech, pretty well written, pretty well delivered. First time in his life reading from a tel prompter. You can look at some of the hires he made of Old Washington hands and political folks to beef up things. The establishment of a Foreign Policy team which some people found underwhelming but at least he took that step. And he constantly refers to the fact that his wife and his daughter say to him you need to be more president ial. So i dont think hes unaware of that. But this is, we talked about this before. Its a Remarkable Campaign it is a oneperson operation. With all due respect to his. Rose andne person operation is going to make mistakes. But this is also the way he has operated. Donald trump is in one way the most surprising person any of us have ever covered. And in other ways he is the most predictable. You see the things he says and he does and they are a product of his way of operating in the world. And that has not been for most of his life president ial. That is just not his thing. Hes tried intermit ently to take the advice of his family and behave in a more president ial fashion. But the core, the core elements of his personality, that mark is referring to nis his predict ability, his inca passity to control himself in terms of wanting to be in the center of attention at all times, promiss cue usually giving interview after interview, doing tferg show, after television show, tweeting all the time, retweeting other peoples tweets whether they happen to be from nazis or people quoting stalin or mussolini, in the case of retweeting this picture, this unflattering photograph of heidi cruz it comes in the middle of a week in which, and this is where, you go back to what else happened in wisconsin, the combination of sending out that tweet which overshadows all of this other stuff t gets amplified by his opponents. He has a Campaign Manager who gets arrested for battery, which in an accusation that involves a young female reporter. And then in a moment where hes totally unprepared in the conversation with Chris Matthews for a basic question about what he claims to be his position on the question of life, and abortion, he totally screws it up in a way that cautions potentially irreparable harm within a hugely important part of the electorate going forward. And obviously also in wisconsin. So i dont disagree. He understands that he must be more president ial or that that is an imperative. But his core impetiousness and his lack of preparation keep bursting through. And the elements or places where he has taken steps to appear more president ial have been wildly overshadowed of late by the mistakes hes made, driven by his instincts an his impetiousness and lack of preparation. Rose its a bit like the old story from vietnam, the scorpion and the turtle, basically says i stunning you because its my nature. Yeah. And john raises a really good point about the amount of damage that he did to himself. If you look at the exit polls, trump has generally gotten about 36, 35 of the women, when you look at exit polls in the prior primary. You look at wisconsin, he got about that number. However, cruz beat him by more than ten points with women. So the women who have been with trump, like many of his supporters, stayed put. They are very loyal to him. And theyre willing to tolerate a lot of mistakes. However, those who are not with him right now, they moved. And if that keeps up, then thats going to create more opportunities for kasich and cruz to keep chipping away at the margins of victories that he needs that trump would need to try to seal the deal. Rose late changes of not voting for trump is kreblght, isnt it. Late deciders. Its been true for awhile. Were you going to say. Given the fact that he is uniquely a solo act in american politics, i mean a solo act, hes flying alone, listening to only what he hears in his own headset, he has no message discipline. And given the fact that running for president is largely about message discipline doesnt this spell his doom . Well, i look, so far anybody who is has predicted his doom has been proven wrong up until literally the last week. This is the first time he has paid a price electorally for some of the kinds of errors he has made. He has made errors with impunity throughout the race. The question is is it reaching a critical mass. And it may be. Well see what happens over the course of the next couple of weeks. He is coming to new york, which is home turf for him, he is expected to win this state, potentially by a large margin. Coend up with a huge number of delegates here and reseize the momentum. I do think that he caused himself some damage in the sense that we already discussed. Hes made contested Convention Much more likely because of the way he lost in wisconsin. And he has done, i think, longterm damage for his any potential he might have to become the president of the United States because is he now alienated in a profound way women, 07 disapproval rating now in the country with women, and hispanic voters. There is no world in which you can be the president of the United States if you have disapproval records from the president with the hispanic vote and female vote. Trump is the nominee before the convention, trump wins the nomination, at the convention, cruz wins at the convention or someone else does. Paul ryan, john kasich, whoever. Rose an increasing number of people believe that it will be paul ryan on a fourth ballot. I believe that i dont believe it is the most likely but i believe its the most likely nontrump cruz outcome. Rose what is the most likely outcome. I think trump, i said this morning and got heat for it, that trump is still the most likely nominee by a lot. Because of the four outcomes, two of them involve trump being the nominee. Winning outright before, or winning at the convention. But that is becoming after last night and until we see that he can right his ship after the problems he had, not just losing wisconsin but the runup to it, until we see he can right his ship, its becoming less likely hell be the nominee but hes still the most likely. Do any of you three experts think that done all trump gets to a secretary ballot in cleveland . And wins on a second ballot . No, does he get to a second ballot. Yeah. Yeah. If he cant get there in one, does he get does he get to a second ballot . Rose what do you think . I think no. Rose if he doesnt get on the first ballot its over. Hes done. Rose before or on the first ballot or hes done. Yeah. There are some states that are bound. There are some state delegates that are bound twice. But they would not amount to enough to make a significant difference on that second ballot. Rose lets suppose, i want to go to the democratic race in a minute. But lets suppose you are ted cruz. What do you do. You have got more organization. Are you more disciplined. You have shown your willingness to fight back at trump on the heidi business especially. What did his stress. A couple late as many delegates as possible, and work the unaffiliated delegates and people who are formally Trump Delegates. I believe the Cruz Campaign believes, there are scoring of delegates who are forced to vote for trump on the first ballot who will not vote on subsequent ballots and you work them like its an inside game. Rose the power they have changed. They are not really for trump, just the way. Every state is different. They are bound because theyre elected as Trump Delegates but they dont hold much. And i believe, you know, the press often overobsesses on elect ability and sure voters will vote for the most electable person. The fact is the Republican Party with the possible exception of 1996 in the post reagan era hasu always voted for the most electable person running. And i bleefer when we get to the convention f trump has not won it, people will, if he is still looking weak. Rose wait, wait witness they always nominated the person who ran. Rose how far back. To reagan. Rose john kennedy himself said that if, in fact, Nelson Rockefeller had been the nominee rather than richard nixon, rockefeller would have beaten him. Yeah. I think if trump cant show that hes more electable by the convention a lot of del galts who might like him will say we cant nominate him. Rose he can only do that by winning. By doing well in headtohead polls and looking more president ial. Looking by someone who could win a general election. Regardless of what you think about the republican parties propenceity to elect the most lechable. The people in the room at the convention will be highly focused on that. This say subset of Republican Voters who are going to be to kusessed in a laser like way on the question of lech able. The broader electorate, maybe, maybe not in that room in cleveland, everyone will be focused on elect able it is the only thing. Rose jeanne, you wanted to say . Well, when you were talking about what is cruzs strategy, hes already implementing it. But as mark said, the delegates that are going to the Convention May be bound to vote for trump on that first ballot. You about they dont really necessarily support him. What we in fact know that many, many of them already dont support him. Theyre cruz supporters. And cruz is using that superior machine that he has to make sure that the people sitting on the floor a