choruses that i could sing. and i never felt like i was a brilliant songwriter. i felt like i knew how to make singles. >> rose: the narrowing race for the democratic nol nation-- nomination and a conversation with steve miller when we continue. >> rose: funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. from our studios captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. we begin this evening with politics, there is much talk about the republicans but the race for the democratic nomination has intensified as the two leading candidates exchange attacks on each other. senator bernie sanders said that hillary clinton's criticism of his stance on gun control and health care signals that her campaign is in trouble. sanders took the lead in new hampshire, according to an nbc and "the wall street journal" poll. he is also closing the gap in iowa. joining me now from des moines is glenn thrush, the chief political correspondent for "politico." in washington, peter nicholas is a "the wall street journal" white house reporter. and here in new york amy chozick is a national political reporter at the "new york times." i am pleased to have all of them here on this program as we talk about the democratic race. so what is going on? what-- how do we val yait the so-called sanders surge. >> right, so for awhile the clinton people said they expected polls to narrow. but i think in the past week you have seen a really jarring strategic change. she went from barely mentioning bernie sanders to really hitting him pretty hard. and every signal is that they are very nervous about this, that they could lose iowa and new hampshire and that could send a ripple fek of losing donors and having to scramble. she could still capture the nomination with those setbacks but i think they're really bracing for that. >> rose: and would it weaken, if it makes her appear weakened, would that maybe suggest other people could come in or it simply would be all the weight would be on bernie sanders? >> well, i mean, there are a couple of schools of thought that the sustainment would-- establishment would stick with her no matter what or woulded establishment push for another democrat to get in the race. i don't think people would necessarily peel off to get behind bernie sanders the way they did with bar ak obama in 2008. >> to look for whether she would suffer back to back defeats in iowa and new hampshire, that could scramble the race. she would still have something of a fire wall in south carolina whose primary is later in february. but there is a large african-american vote that is typically loyal to her. but defeats in iowa and new hampshire would be very troubling for her, a disturbing sign. and could entice some other candidates perhaps or some other politicians to think about that race. and could completely erode the idea that she is the inevitable frontrunner. >> rose: does that include joe biden. >> i done think you can rule it out. he suggested that he is regrets having not gotten in. and he is less than enthusiastic about her candidacy based on some recent interviews he's done. >> it's not good. but she's got sort of a counterargument she can make. i will play devil's advocate here. new hampshire is right next door to vermont, sanders was supposed to win that anyway. iowa as we know is the fifth whitest state in the country and has a caucus system that isn't necessarily representative of the larger electorate. she then has nevada which has a fairly substantial latino population where she is looking fairly strong. and then you have south carolina which will be very hard for bernie sanders. now i understand there would be a big momentum shift but you can't think about her race in isolation. you have to think about what is going on in the republican side. if donald trump wins any of the firs two primaries, i think that changes the fundamental psychology of the average democratic voter and feeds into her argument that she is the only one with the strength to be able to fight those guys. and you know, i think she will be weakened, but i think she could potentially survive losing both of those. >> rose: is donald trump, would democratic voters a powerful threat, so the mention of his name makes you even deeper feel the need to have a strong democratic candidate? >> the same kind of disenchantment with washington politics as usual that is fueling the donald trump rise is also in some sense on the democratic side, ihink is behind this berny sanders bounce that we've seen. as recently as october, hillary looked like she had the nomination sewn up. a strong debate performance. she did very well in her 11 hour performance before the benghazi committee. and it just, what we are seeing on the democratic electorate though is some sense that they don't want to just ratify their clinton candidacy. they want to see a real race, a contest. they like bernie's bash the billionaires populist message. and clinton seems like a centrist establishment mainstream figure whose message may be doesn't fit the gliet guise at this moment. >> rose: and too close to wall street. >> yeah. bought and paid for by waws wawses is what some of the people i talked to in iowa suggest. >> rose: is there generally in the country a sense of the democratic party shifting left? and seeing not only in the politics on the campaign trail but also in terms of how the president now expresses himself. >> i mean iowa is certainly right for an insurgent candidacy and we've seen that in many elections in the past. but i also think that the party has shifted to the left and hillary clinton was adjusting her positions as such, even before bernie sanders was a threat. i think she needed to shore up union support to close out biden. and so she was speaking out-- . >> rose: and to wrap up elizabeth warren. >> exactly. you could say the warren wing of the party is sort of the animating force in the primary. certainly bernie sanders has pushed her slightly. but the party has moved even to the left of where bar ak obama is on some of the issues. look at the transpacific partnership, his trade deal. >> rose: you think it's unlikely that no matter how well bernie does in the first two primaries, iowa and new hampshire, that she has a fire wall and just forget all this talk, we're simply-- we are just looking for a story? >> no, i don't think we're just looking for a story. two points here. first and fore most, she has never been a very good candidate. and we're seeing that again, right snr particularly in a state like iowa which really feeds on enthusiasm. i have gone to a couple events in the last few days. her events, berny sanders events. he has a really simple understandable pitch. her stump speech keeps getting longer and longer. any time things go wrong she throws another program on to the pielt it is a crazy one-hour quilt of different programs. you have people nodding off in the audience. she just does not have a clear message. but i do think she has this. the main thrust of the democratic party, particularly in 2012,what people don't realize about the 2012 election, as significant as 08ee, it really represented latinos and african americans. the obama machine maximizing turnout. hillary clinton winning south carolina by a substantial margin would be very important and this is a party right now in terms of the base that is far more about those voters than about white mid western voters. >> i wonder if this week or so hillary clinton is displaying in the primaries if it does not bode well for her in a general election, glenn. because it does significant fie, as you point out, some weaknesses that she has as a candidate. and whether she might have a problem mobilizing voters and spiking turnout in a general election. and i think that if, let's face facts. bernie sanders is a 74 year old democratic socialist. he was an obscure senator from vermont. his name recognition is flex to nothing and he is you were pushing hillary clinton one of the most familiar us people on the planet hard in new hampshire and iowa. why is that happening. you have to ask yourself and does that bode well for the democratic party in a general election. >> rose: let's answer that question. why is that happening? >> i would just say to peter's point that a hard fought primary could make her a better candidate in the general election. by the time she was losing to obama, that was the best. and we were on the campaign trail together. we finally saw her become a pretty good candidate. >> rose: when it was too late to win. >> exactly. she started to not care. she started to engage with the press more. and so a hard fought primary i think could be good for her when she is entering the general. >> rose: is it fair to say that this early hillary clinton did not learn the lessons of 20089 at all? >> i think she learned the logistical lessons. but i think she is a more stilted, removed and candidate than in 08ee. in 08ee she had just run a senate re-election campaign and was really much more in the mix with voters. she was more accustomed to it i am seeing some real transation-- transitional issues from her going from foggy bottom out into, you know, mason city. she really doesn't seem to have the same sort of feel for the electorate that she had in some of those later primaries. >> rose: peter, do you agree with that? >> i think i do, yes. as i do think he's got a point here. the guest of it is that she is-- it's something that is always flom oxed her. she is not a natural campaigner. she is not her husband. she is always campaign -- compared to that high standard. she comes off as awkward, some what formal. i was listening to her at a candidate forum the other day in des moines, the brown and black forum where she was asked about would you deport children who are in the country illegally. and her answer was along the lines of i would provide them due process. well, we're talking about children. and yes, that answer is probably a safe and conventional and responsible answer, but is it the kind of answer that is really memorable? in ways that a bernee sanders answer is memorable. i am not so sure. i think that is what glen is speaking to. >> i would also say that i think she overcorrected some things from 2008. for instance she got criticized for having a campaign filled with old clinton cronies who had been around. so she fills her campaign with brand new people, obama people, a mix of other people without don't have a relationship with her. and therefore cannot push back like some of the old time-- . >> rose: does that include her campaign manager. >> yeah, she's of course not as close to him. i'm not saying 2008 was perfect but in some places she sort of overcorrected. >> that is a great point. what amy is talking about, the distance between hillary and her brain trust now, now granted, last time it was way too much. she would call people up in the middle of the night and scream at them. now you have a situation where you have major players on her campaign who do not communicate with her regularly. and to some extent that imposes a discipline that wasn't there in 08ee but it also gives it a bloodless mechanical quality. >> she never talked about being a woman. now she is running as the first grandmother. you also see overcorrecting in a lot of ways. >> rose: what separates the two of them? iowa? >> not in terms of numbers but in terms of issues. >> clinton pointed to the messaging. bernie sanders is a very viseral income inequality, end crony capital im, we're going to take back our economy. and she goes through a laundry list of issues like autism, prescription drug prices, really kind of microissues that she hears from voters, they care about. >> rose: joe biden said to me this morning on cbs this morning, he said bernie sanders has been making this speech for 30 years. >> i think one thing that separates them, charlie, is this question of authenticity. i think it is what amy and glenn are touching on. polls consistently show that people don't see her as honest and straight forward. they don't see her as a real cham-- champion of middle clation interests. that shurting her. i was at an event with bernie sandrs where a 28 year old man got up and talked about that he is carrying $98,000 in student loan debt, half his paycheck goes to student loans. bernie asked him to stand up and address the crowd. it was a real connection. the pan got emotionalment and he turned and urged the crowd to vote for bernie. it is this kind of thing that you don't necessarily see at a hillary clinton raleigh. >> rose: where is he in the campaign, bill clinton. >> we are starting to see him. he is out on the trail more. he is a sur gat for her. he has been in iowa, new hampshire, chelsea chin ton is out. little wistful, nostalgic.ds a he talks about his presidency, he vowjs for hillary, goes through autobiographical tales but his speeches have had a little me anderring quality to them. he talks about different things he read in the newspaper and his reaction to them. you know, it's sort of like a little walk down memory lane. >> but i thought a really interesting development is chelsea clinton by the way who wouldn't talk to news 2008. i had this great encounter when she came out on the trail where she said i don't talk to the press. she said you are all grown up now, why not. but a couple of days ago she emerged as a-- with a baby bump and emerged as a really-- with a really sharp attack on bernie sanders and his health-care plan. that is an interesting thing. you know, the point is back in 08ee i remember and amy and peter can address this too. i remember hillary having this constellation of sur gats who were really willing to go to battle for her. it is interesting that her daughter now has to sortd of step into the fray and make this argument. i want to know where all these sur gats are for hillary. >> rose: where do you think they are? >> they don't want to get hit by the bernie sanders bus, a lot of democrats. >> i also wonder if there is not a risk in the strategy, if there is not going to be a backlash. bernie sporpters are pretty protective of him. i'm not sure they will be that enthusiastic about hillary clinton and chelsea clinton and the clinton campaign team attacking him in this way. they could alienate the liberal wing of the party. hillary wants these voters. she is trying to woo them. so this strategy, i think, is a tricky one. and i see why she's doing it. because the poll numbers aren't looking good but there is a possible backlash here. >> peter made the point about authenticity. if she starts attacking him on these issues, she is going to look like a typical politician and sort of everything that the anti-establishment liberal wing doesn't like about the clintons. >> rose: yeah. here is what you said. the recipe for a sanders upset in iowa calls for a large turnout of voters under 45 and those at the lower end of the economic scale. appealing to their anger at wall street, the influential of money and politics and hollowing out of the working class. that is what he has got to do, to get those voters out. >> absolutely. the generational gap is really stark. >> rose: my impression is that what she had done between 2008 and 2015, 16, is put together a group of people who knew how to reach those voters. >> the candidate is a candidate. and also the decades-long in the public eye and in washington, can't change that. and so you know, young people don't see her as sort of new and fresh. and i did a lot of reporting about young women, not being so excited about the first female president. you talk to 60 year old bim who are really excited about hillary and breaking the glass ceiling and younger women are not motivated by that. they say we will have a woman eventually, why does it have to be her. it is an interesting dynamic. >> it is strikingt these hillary events. i was at an event at iowa state university yesterday. and there was a young mother with a baby and the baby cried and people looked around. they didn't know what it was. there is scus not a lot of young people at these rallies. i mean, you know, like 75, 80% of these folks are over 60 years old and some in their 90s, you know. >> rose: the donald trump phenomenon, is that a deep and pervasive dominant theme of this campaign or is it just the republican campaign because you have people in that party who are tired of not only democrats and not only the establishment and not only washington, but their own party establishment. >> some of the most interesting data i've seen on voters is the overlap between trump spoarts and bernie sanders supporters. >> tell me about that. >> that there is a white working class con tin gent that is supportive of both of their issues, that are motivating voters to be drawn to both candidates on sort of opposite side of the spectrum. that tells me that this anger is more wide spread than just dismissing it as republican primary voters. i think 2 is a problem for hillary. people close to her say she's never going to win the angry vote. that is just not who she is. she can win over sceptical independents. she can win over democrats. she might be able to get the liberals who are still mad at her but the very angry voters are not her strong suit. >> rose: is elizabeth warren on the campaign trial at all? >> we don't see her at all. i don't think she is endorsed. >> what she is really interested in is that she wants who ever the next president is or who the democratic nominee s she wants to determine who the personnel are in that administration. she wants a say in who the next treasury secretary is and who are the financial moniters in that administration. so she is a very-- like bern ye sanders but unlike hillary clinton, she is enormously focused on that one issue. and i hi she views everything through the prism of how can she best position herself to execute on that issue. >> rose: does bernie sanders have a ground game? >> yeah. he does have a big ground game in iowa. the hillry folks got off to a much faster start. they had people dispercented through the state. they snapped up a lot of obama talent from 2008. but sanders has an enormous amount of enthusiasm and he now has a lot of money. and so a lot of places i talked to a clinton organizer in cedar rapids who said as late as the early fall they were not seeing a big presence from sanders. now his family and up in cedar rapids got door-knocked the other day. so the sanders folks are coming on strong. so the question is does organization beat enthusiasm. and i talked to a former obama architect of his great strategy in iowa who said i would take enthusiasm over organization any day. >> rose: but that is exactly not true. my impression in the republican party is that they are saying ted cruz may very well win because of organization, not withstanding enthusiasm on the part of the trump supporters. >> i think you are dealing with-- i think right there you are talking about the difference in the dynamic between the democratic side and the caucus, and the republican side in the caucus. because i think the issues both sanders and clinton, it's my understanding have considerably more sophisticated and expansive ground operations than exist currently on the republican side. trump has some and he's moving in that direction. but he doesn't have anything compared to the kind of massive, we're talking hundreds of staffers or more than a hundred staffers in clinton's case on the ground in iowa. >> okay, so well then february 1s is around the corner. and then february 8th is around that corner. if you had to predict today, does bernie sanders win iowa? >> well, it's very hard to predict. we've all been burned by predictions. but i do think he has-- he has a good chance to win iowa. he has a very good clans to win new hampshire. and if he does, i think that is an embarrassment to hillary clinton. i think it scrambles the race. i think it forces her to spend more money in the primary season than she wants to i don't think you can rule out the possibility of a bernie sanders upset win in iowa. it shows where we are. who would have predicted this in may when bernie entered the race or in october when joe biden announced he want running. everything seemed to be breaking hillary clinton away. >> rose: glenn, it gives momentum, for sure. >> i think, yeah, if i were to guess right now, and it's just a guess, he will take both of them. the reason is i think the clinton people expected a sanders surge, contrary to what bill clinton said today which is they expected this weeks ago. no, they expected a much later surge. three weeks out they were not expecting the sanders surge. so the momentum is clearly on his side. she really does need to do something to stop sanders momentum in iowa right away. >> i don't think any of us predicted that hillary clinton would come in third in the iowa caucus in 2008 so not good at predictions either. but i definitely think bernie could win both early states. >> rose: a very real possibility. >> a very real possibility. >> rose: and trending his way. >> trending his way, yes. and it's hard to see, sort of, she's just throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks. it doesn't look like they have a real strategy right now for taking on bernie. it was guns, then it was attacking his single payor health care proposals. and so i haven't yet seen a solidified message that will resonate without turning off his supporters. >> you know what is interesting, it's whether they would attack him on the issue of his socialist ties. we haven't seen that at all. but there is a record there where he has said things about government ownership of the means of production. he wrote an op ed in 76y when running for governor of vermont where he talked about that. you haven't seen clinton go there. but it would be interesting to see if they feel threatened enough this they would start really calling attention to the fact that he is an devout socialist and america has never come close to electing an socialist president. >> well, that would also call into question his support of president obama which hillary has been trying to do. because obama's widely popular among primary voters and if she can vow sanders hasn't been supportive of him on some of his policies, gun control, for instance, she thinks that say winning bet. >> rose: amy, thank you. >> thanks for having me. >> rose: great to see you, glenn, thank you so much. peter, thank you. >> thank you, charlie. >> bye. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. 7 stevie guitar miller is here. he has written some of rock 'n' roll's most recognizable and successful songs. his string much chart-toppers include jet airliner, the joker, take the money and run, and fly like an eagle. these tracks helped his greatest hit album go on to be certified 16 times platinum. "rolling stone" magazine calls steve miller a pop rock hit maker who combines indelible riff, catchy tunes and danceable grooves into songs that still light up the rock radio. he will be inducted into the rock 'n' roll hall of fame in april. here he is playing his hit song the joker in our studio. ♪ some people call me the spatial cowboy ♪ some call me the gangster of love ♪ some people call me mawr ease ♪ cuz i speak of love ♪ people talk about me baby ♪ yeah ♪ they say i'm doing you wrong ♪ doing you wrong ♪ don't you worry, no darling, no don't worry ♪ cuz i'm right here right here right here ♪ right here ♪ cuz i'm a grinner ♪ i'm lover ♪ and i'm a sinner ♪ ♪ playing my music in the sun ♪ i'm a joker ♪ i'm a smoker ♪ i'm a midnight toaker ♪ i sure don't want to hurt no one ♪ ♪ you're the cutest thing that i ever did see ♪ really love your peaches, ♪ lovey dovey lovey dovey ♪ all the time ♪ baby ♪ i assure you a good time ♪ kus i'm-- cuz i'm a grinner ♪ i'm a lover ♪ and i'm a sinner ♪ i play my music in the sun ♪ i'm a joker ♪ i'm smoker ♪ i'm midnight toker ♪ i give my loving on the run ♪ whooo ♪ people keep talking about me baby ♪ you say i'm doing you wrong ♪ doing you wrong ♪ don't you worry, no darling no don't worry ♪ cuz i'm right here right here ♪ right here ♪ you're the cutest thing that i ever did see ♪ really love your peaches and wanta shake your tree ♪ lovee dovee lovey dovey all the time ♪ baby ♪ i sure show you a good time ♪ cuz i'm a grinner ♪ i'm a lover ♪ and i'm a sinner ♪ playing my music in the sun ♪ i'm a joker ♪ i'm smoker ♪ i'm midnight toker ♪ i get my loving on the run ♪ cuz i'm a picoer ♪ i'm a grinner ♪ i'm a lover ♪ and i'm a sinner ♪ i play my music in the sun ♪ and i'm a joker ♪ i'm a smoker ♪ i'm a midnight toker ♪ i sure don't want to hurt no one ♪ whooo ♪ ♪ yeah ♪ >> rose: i am pleased to have steve miller here for the first time, welcome. >> that you, it's an honor to be here, charlie. you're my favorite interviewer. >> rose: thank you, sir. >> thank you. >> rose: so how does it feel to be inducked in april into the hall of fame? >> it feels pretty good. it's a lot of excitement. it was a surprise. you know, i just woke up one morning and everybody said hey, people are voting for you, you are in 24 thing. people are talking about you. and it should be, you know, to walk in to the hall of fame with my godfather les paul and t-bone walker and chuck berry and people like that, that i have played with, and that i have known, that really feels great. >> rose: les paul played a bick role in your life? >> he played a huge role in my life. he was my godfather. he was the first entertainer i ever saw. he taught me how to jam. he taught me what music really is about, what musicians, you know, it was always the cats and there was always a jam session and it was always funny. and i saw him when i was four and a half years ol. i saw a great guitarist walk into a nightclub while les paul was playing a solo. and les looked up and saw tal and reached in his pocket and took his hanker chef out and put it over his left hand and continued play sog tal couldn't steal his licks. and i saw that, and i just went boy, i want to be just like les. and he was very encouraging. you know, elise inned to my father made some tapes of me when i was four years old. i was making up songs and singing to the kids. and in the back alley. and i was doing a show. he snuck in and recorded me. he played it for les paul.-and o listen to it. and then i was real embarrassed. and he told me not to be embarrassed and i was really going to go places and that i should have fun. it started there. >> rose: you were how old? >> i was four. it was 1949. >> rose: and did you then know you wanted to be a musician. >> i did. i came from a musical family. there were lots of great musicians coming to the house. charles mingus was at the house, tal farlow, les paul, people like that were kind of hanging out and partying. and that looked like a lot of fun to me. and then les and mary were-- they got married. my mom and dad were the best man and made of honor at the wedding. and they spent their honeymoon night at the house. and i just, you know, les taught me my first chords. and i knew that he was speeding tapes and slowing it down and mary was doing multitrack recording with her voice. and i just got it all at a real early age. >> rose: take a look at this, this is les paul here on this show in 1991. the year we started. take a look. >> there is that first time where mostly you do it, brand new, you do it the best. and it if you can get through it, tbrobly everything after that will be more perfect, better, but not with the same feeling, not done as well. >> not the same humanity. >> that's all-- . >> rose: whose voit would you like to have had? >> any one but the one i got. >> rose: that's him. >> that's les, you know, he was like that right to the very end. he lived to be 93. and he was working right up to the end. the last time i looked at him i just thought he's going to live to be 120. >> rose: you are going to be admitted as steve miller, right. >> yeah. >> rose: not the band? >> no, you know, i think that so much time has passed. you know, if we had been put up to-- for nomination or when we were originally together, i think the whole band would have gone. i would have preferred it to be that way, norton buffalo and tim davis, and guys like that, that were such important parts of my work and my life, you know. i would like to bring them all in. but there is just a lot of people now, it's been 50 years, charlie, we have been doing this, so it's a bunch. >> rose: 40 years sinsz the joker. >> yeah. >> rose: 40 years. >> yeah. it goes by fast, doesn't it. >> rose: you are telling me. >> and you know, there is still, you know, tim ahead, you know, a lot of work to do. >> rose: how high up do you put that album. >> that album, you know, the joker was-- a song that saved my career. i was-- it was my seventh album with capitol records. they didn't care about what i was doing at all. and i made the record in a couple of weeks and turned it in and want out and did a 60 city tour. and the last thing i said to them was like try and have some albums in the stores in the cities that i'm actually working in. you know, it was always that kind of a fielt, you know. and i went out and it was like a viral, like when things go viral today, that's what the joker did. and when i came back i had the number one single, finally, after 11 years of recording and trying to, you know, make hit singles. finally-- finally had it. and that gave me the finances, you know, to like-- improve my sound system and my production. >> rose: did it give you confidence? >> yeah. yeah, it did. and it gave me a bigger audience. and so what happened was i went from the joker to playing the fillmore auditorium to playing the par a mount and the fox theater, to playing hockey a ara rena, to playing arenas to football stadiums in two years. >> rose: my goodness. >> yeah. it was-- so there was a lot of development that had to happen. >> rose: when you write songs, you got to have a lot of confidence in yourself. >> i don't think so. >> rose: you don't think so. >> no. you know, i, when i would write songs i always wanted to hear the harmony. i love harmony singing. and i love four-part harmony. i walk around hearing stuff in four part harmony all the time. i hear a song and i want to sing the secretary part or the lower part or higher part. so i was writing songs to like kind of get harmony parts, you get choruses that i could sing. and i never-- felt like i was a brilliant songwriter. i felt like i knew how to make singles. les made singles. and i felt like i knew how to produce records. and i really liked that part of the game. >> rose: and you knew sam phillips. >> i didn't. but i listened to those records. and you go back and listen to a record that he cut in 1954 and it sounds great today. or les paul was a genius at that. and he was recording those records in his house. and they sound like they were recorded this morning. so the first thing that happened was there was a big fight in the studio. the studio didn't like the way we worked. they didn't like the way we recorded. and they didn't like who we were because we weren't regular musicians, we were from san francisco and we were in l.a. and all of this stuff. so we were in a fight. so we started recording left and went to london, to olympic studios where they liked us. and they wanted to make the drums sound bigger. you would go in and make a record and you would come back and listen to it and it would sound like this tiny little thing. especially rock 'n' roll. you know. electric guitars and-bases and drums. and would you have to then use these tricks to turn it into a big thing. that would sound good. and then you would go and cut the vinyl. and there would be a guy there who would be 58 years old, who was going to keep that needle down here. and you want the needle up here because everything, all the energy and the presence is right on the edge. it went over the edge, we got to cut it again, you know. but it's right up there. so that is the first thing, it's got to sound great. >> rose: right. >> then once it sounds great, then you can start singing and rmonies and adding the hooks. and i think a hit single has to have five hooks. -- . >> rose: a hit single has to have five hooks. >> that's my formula. >> rose: tell us about a hook. >> well, you know, you put it on and it's been on for three seconds and are you going, hey, oh, you know, and then something else happens and all of a sudden you understand what is going on. age now you got that is two and then three and there are some harmony going on and somebody is singing something you want to sing along with. and then there is a wolf whistle or a great solo or a hand clap or something happens. and the next thing you know, it's like different and it's really fun. and you know, most of my songs are kind of like the kind of songs you put in a car and drive. you drive from texas to illinois and listen to the music, you know. >> rose: but the joker took you out of. >> yeah, and you know, it was like the first time i was on am radio. and i-- you know, that was always the goal was to get on am radio which was very, very tough. and it was kind of like a mafia kind of controlled thing. and i didn't like that part of it. i didn't like the-- and i didn't like the disk jockies who wanted to you do free gigs. i had a lot of problems with the way the business model worked. and so when i finally got-- with the joker, it did what it did then, i didn't have those problems any more. i didn't have to do that. >> rose: but later, i learned a lesson when the independent promoters and guys came back in the business, later, i put out an album and hi some guys that would say listen, for $60,000 bucks, man, we can get this song played in l.a and i was going i just had a number one record. i'm not paying $60,000 to anybody, are you nuts? and like my next record sold 25,000 albums. it just like went-- so. >> rose: what did that tell you? >> that told me that there were some new people in town controlling the air play. and that if you wanted air play, you had to pay for it and that is when i decided to take i five year break and left. >> rose: what did you do? >> i bought a boat. i learned to navigate and run radar and i started cruising the inside pass age from seattle to alaska. >> rose: wow. >> and i was so glad i did that. >> rose: do you still write songs. >> not so much. >> rose: why not? >> i think it's because the songs that i wrote were like am and fm pop hits for young kids, for young people. i write a lot of music. but the business is completely different now. >> rose: touring is everything. >> touring is everything. i do a lot of blues tunes and do a lot of-- like in my show, it's about 23 songs or something. and 14 of them are greatest hits that people really, they really are disappointed-- i could do 13 of them and they go but he didn't do jungle love, you know. and i don't want anybody to ever feel that way. that comes to see me. so there are nine songs that i can, you know, weave in and out. but if i say to my audience, you know, hey, here's a couple of new songs, you know, we just made a new rohr and here are a couple of new songs, 5,000 people will get up and go get a hot dog and won't cam back until they hear the joker start. it's very conservative audience. >> rose: take a look at this. this is mick jagger on the program in 2002 talking about the expectations to perform hit songs. >> you get sometimes the feeling like that people, i mean there is a certain audience that comes to an event, you know. so i mean you go to a baseball game, you want to see the star batter hit the ball. you have got to do a great, you know, six of those tunes that everyone knows because they want satsz faction. i mean i like all the well-known tunes, i like doing them. can i bring things to them, to satisfaction, and-- and i can do those every other night. >> rose: every other night. you do them every night. >> well, you know, i'm not like that. i actually, this last year, i had more fun playing my greatest hits than i have had in a long long long time. >> rose: why? >> well, here is my theory. i've been hanging out with wynton mar sal is, jazz at lincoln center, and i'm kind of like, i wake up every morning going god, i got to practice. i need to play some scales. i need to get better. and sort of by osmosis i'm playing better. and my approach, i moved to new york a couple of years ago, just for this very reason. and i am getting so inspired by all the music and talent and art that i am seeing, that it's really making me step up pie game. so i started playing better. my band started playing better. started having a much better time with my audience. and we just had a run that we just finished that was so much fun and it's a whole-- it's a whole new thing. and i think you have to keep-- you have to keep getting better. you can't get to where like i've got these 23 songs that i do. and i make a great living doing it. and i'm not doing them right now but next week i'm going to start doing them again. for me, i'm, you know-- i spent, you know, three hours yesterday practicing. you know. and i got up this morning and i brought out my guitar and i was practicing. and for a long time i wasn't doing that. i really wasn't. >> rose: made you feel better about it. >> i feel so much better, i can't tell you. and the music and on the stage is like you you know, i didn't know we could play rocking me like that. you know? it's like that. so it's really different. and it's not, you know-- . >> rose: is it the audience new? >> the audience is always changing. the audience changes every couple of years. my audience is really something. it ranges from six years old or ten years old to 80 now. it's-- i mean i watched it all my life, you know. and you know in the '90s it was all kids am people would come and see me and go my god, your audience is so young. and you know, when we scoped it out t was like, you know, between the ages of 10 and 25, and it was 60% girls, and it was-- and these were, you know, 20,000 kids coming. and all they knew was the greatest hits. and that is a whole audience that was created in the '90s. and there is this whole audience that was created in the '80s. and the '70s audience and the '60s audience. and you get these overlaps to where now when we go out and play, you look out and it's pretty cool. it's like a lot of kids, a lot of old people, a lot of middle-aged people. and they're-- the main thing is they love music. you know, they are people who really like music and they really like live performance and they're my audience. and i have had this deal with them all my life where if they come see me, it's going to sound great, we're going to play really good. we're going to sing really well. >> rose: giving your best. >> it is going to be a good show. >> rose: this is you performing fly like an eagle at austin city limits in 2011. five years ago. here it is. time keeps on slipping slipping slipping ♪ into the future ♪ time keeps on slipin slipin slipin ♪ into the future ♪ time keeps on slipin slipin slipin ♪ into the future ♪ time keeps on slipping slipping slipping ♪ into the future ♪ ♪ ♪. >> it's fun. >> rose: nothing like live music. >> nothing. it heals you, makes you feel great. brings joy to everybody. >> rose: of all the things that you have done, does one stand out for you in terms of not just your favorite song but one that has more meaning to you because of where you were in your life, because of what it said to you? because. >> yeah, i think fly like an eagle is my song. you know, i think that is the important song. i think it's musically it is really original. i like what it says. i like what it is about. i like the politics of it. i like the-- the way it just sort of snuck in and took over and has lasted. and the main thing i like about it is it has this huge section that's spontaneous and you done know what is going to happen. so every night when we jump into that pool, it could go this way, it could go that way, it's different and it's really a satisfying piece. >> rose: you said your goal with fly like an eagle was to make a record that when radio stations put it on, they could not take it off. >> that's true. you know, when i was a kid i used to listen to bozo goes to the circus, or bozo-- the bozo records where you turn the page and they were albums. this is in the 40see and early '50s where records were stories. and they went on and on and on. and i always thought an album should be something that you put on and can't take off. it's really good. so i-- those old bozo records had segues in between the stories. and so i started making musical segues and when fly like an eagle came out as a record, they didn't. they played the whole side. they played the whole side. for months they played the whole side. and they would flip it over and play the other side. i pulled it off, i did it, that's great. and i wanted every song to be a hit. i wanted every song to be important. i wanted the album to be a really great piece of music. i listen to a lot of jazz. i listen a lot of segovia, a lot of modern jazz quartet, miles davis, canon ball, attarly, those records where you just put them on and they just take you to a beautiful place. i wanted to do that with my songs. >> rose: it is hard to put out an album today unless you're adele or. >> yeah, right now it is-- this is a very, very, very different world. and things have really, really changed. >> rose: all about streaming. >> yeah. >> rose: how long do you want to tour? dwns for my entire life. charlie, i'm having as much fun as you are having. i get up every day. >> rose: that's a lot. >> that's a lot of fun. it is a lot of fun. and like i say, i watched you for 23 years and i know who you are, and what you do and how you operate. and i know where you are going and i know what you are thinking about. and i really love it. and it's just like that for me and my music world. and i've got lots of stuff going on. working with jazz at lincoln center, i'm working with the metropolitan museum and the musical instrument department. >> rose: this is what i admire about you. >> well, i am just thrilled to have the opportunity to work with them. and i work atu sc with the music department there and i work at the university of miami with shelly berg. and i work with helping develop music programs and things like this. and all of that is f. i have a lot of experience in a lot of ideas. very opinionated. i know how it should be, you know. and basically what i want to do is i want to take all these kids and i want to teach them how to make money playing music. i want them to know how to do a show and entertain an audience and go get on the stage and turn it on and started something and create it right in front of the people and have that thing fill the room. that is the magic, you know. >> rose: most of us can never imagine, most of us, can never imagine what it is like to walk when the lights are dark and you are at a stadium. and you walk on. >> it's so much fun. >> rose: and the enthusiasm just rolls in eccentric circles. >> you know, when i was a kid-- . >> rose: with the cell phones they put the light on. >> yeah, i used to wonder about that too. you know, i would watch les paul when i was a little kid and go god, he's having so much fun. and then i got on stage and i always had fun. and there were times when i was scared. there were times i would be shaking and go out and it would take me three songs, sok. and then i finally got used to it. and i, it's really odd. i mean i love to play for an audience. i mean now i really like my audience. i want to sit down and talk to them. i want to tell them some stories. i want to play some music. and the bigger it is, the better it is. >> rose: what are you doing at jazz at lincoln center. >> well, i am on the board. and now i am helping develop a pedagogu ey for early american music, for appalachan music for delta blush, mem fis blush, texas blues, missouri blues, arkansas blues, chicago blues. and we're going to fix it so we can teach it. and i am curating shows for their different rooms. for the appel room and rose theater. and so i'm going to do, i don't know, i've got jimmy vaughn is coming in in april. and we're putting together a show called from maharany to miles. and what i am doing is combining jazz and blues and kind of trying to get jazz at lincoln center to like grab all their young kids and create these jazz bands and i want to see miles davis, jr. you know, like if eric clapton can copy freddie king and then become eric clapton, i want these kids, i want to see some jazz bands. i want to see something like canon ball, attarly or coaltran. i want young kids and i want them to put a big show together with the orchestra, i wab winton in the orchestras do bassie and ellington and bring out three little kid groups and have them steal the show. and i want is he seal to come in and do the yellow part and winton to blow them off the stage and i want them to start, you know, jazz festivals, you know, all over the world. that's my plan for those guys. >> rose: you really are a producer. look at this. steve miller band, joker. >> yes. >> rose: steve miller band, fly like an eagle. steve miller band, greatest hits, 1974 to 1978. are you in san francisco with the grateful dead, weren't snu. >> i was, yup. i got to san francisco right when it was all starting. and it was great. charlie. it was absolutely amazing. and it was so different. cuz i came from chicago. i had just been competing with muddy waters and howling wolf and paul betterfield for gigs in nightclubs for three years. and i got out to san francisco and the grateful dead hit the stage and played a really bad version of in the midnight hour. and then stood around tuning for 20 minutes. and i was going what is this? what-- and i wanted to be in it because i wanted to get out of nightclubs and the fillmore held 1200 people, you know. could you make $500 a night instead of $125 a week, you know, i mean it was, i want to shall-- and i started looking at what was going on. and they were a social phenomenon. and the whole world changed. and you know, san francisco is this magic place. i mean now it's silicon valley. you look at what has come out of san francisco in the last 50 years, it just never stops. it's just, you know, it's changing the whole world. there's some energy there. there is some sin erjee there. >> rose: it is a unique space. >> and it was there in the '60s. it was incredible. and there were all these bands with all these kids. and some of them were good musicians, some of them were just guys who said we're going to start a rock band and we're going to do this. and god, you know, we went from the philmore to football stadiums. >> rose: from steve miller to steve jobs. thank you, my friend. >> thank you, charlie. it's a pleasure. >> rose: really. the induction into the rock 'n' roll hall of fame will take place at barkly center on april 8th. thank you. >> thanks. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ snoalt ♪ ♪ supposed to be some bad cats ♪ ♪ folks get good and ugly ♪ hung up their guns ♪ and dug you to the graves ♪ i'm a gangster ♪ ♪ a gangster of love ♪ you know i'm a gangster yeah ♪ a gangster of love ♪ and when i walk into a bar ♪ near and far ♪ say i'm a gangster ♪ of love ♪ well i jump in my cadillac ♪ across the borderline ♪ road 55 girls ♪ kiss them all the same time ♪ 25 or 30 ♪ theres with a million dollar reward ♪ for me in each and every state ♪ i said that is your wife on the back of my horse ♪ i'm a gangster ♪ i gangster of love ♪ you know i'm a gangster way ♪ a gangster of love ♪ and when i walk into a bar ♪ girls from near and far ♪ snoalt say i'm a gangster ♪ look out now baby ♪ look out now charlie ♪ ♪ i'm gonna get ya ♪ yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ♪ ♪ >> rose: for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. funding for charlie rose is provided by the following: and bli bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> rose: on tomorrow's pbs newshour, the story of a family the syrian toddler who drowned off turkey's coast and sparked off turkey's coast and sparked nrlt cries for help. [ mid-tempo music plays ] [ paper rustling ] [ dog barking ] [ dog whines ] [ wind whistling ] [ wind whistling ] [ engine turns over ] [ engine revs ] [ engine shuts off ] [ rainfall, footsteps splashing ] "film school shorts" is made possible by a grant from maurice kanbar, celebrating the vitality and power of the moving image, and by the members of kqed. >> announcer: this is "nightly business report" with tyler mathisen and sue herera. nowhere to hide. an intense, late-day sell-off sends the three major indexes into the correction zone, down 10% or more from their recent highs. not a single market sector is up for the year so far. so, where can you find cover? switching cities. the rams move west, general electric goes north. the big money behind two stunning relocations. in it to win it. the record jackpot grips the nation, but why do we play even when we know we won't win? all that and more tonight on "nightly business report" for wednesday, january 13th. good evening, everyone, and welcome. the selling was intense. the financial

Related Keywords

Miami , Florida , United States , New York , Arkansas , Nevada , New Hampshire , Missouri , Texas , Vermont , Turkey , Cedar Rapids , Iowa , Bern , Switzerland , Syria , Washington , District Of Columbia , Seattle , Des Moines , London , City Of , United Kingdom , San Francisco , California , Peter Point , South Carolina , Iowa State University , Mason City , Chicago , Illinois , Americans , America , Syrian , American , Davis Jr , Elizabeth Warren , Joe Biden , Freddie King , Jimmy Vaughn , Shelly Berg , Chuck Berry , Les Paul , A Hillary Clinton Raleigh , Chelsea Clinton , Charles Mingus , Mick Jagger , Sam Phillips , Peter Nicholas , Eric Clapton , Steve Miller , Tim Davis , Hillary Clinton , Wynton Mar , Bernie Sanders ,