Transcripts For KQED Charlie Rose 20151130

On Covert Military operations, and drone strikes are a perfect example, you pay a price by neglecting the analytical side. Rose we conclude with singer tom jones. Hed say, forget that rock and roll, youre a great jazz singer, you could really get into some jazz. I said, well, i like doing it all, to be honest. So i was in a position where Frank Sinatra was trying to pull me one way and Elvis Presley another. I thought, what a position to be in, to be pulled by two of the greatest singers ever. Rose the spymasters and tom jones when we continue. Rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose the c. I. A. s played a pivotal role in the fight against terrorism. The men who have led the agency have faced some of the most somber decisions in modern history. The shaaban hafiz ahmad ali history. The psi ps spy masters. Everything that we hold dear was at risk. We were at war every lead led nowhere. It was pretty frustrating. We were asked to do some very hard things. We can let these terrorists fry or try to get something. If some future president decides the to waterboard, he better bring his own bucket. Rose joining me are the filmmakers Chris Whipple is the writer and executive producer. Jules and geedeeon naudet are te directors. Really pleased to have you back. Thanks for having us. Rose how did this project get underway . Well, you know, as journalists said, documentary filmmakers, you see a closed door. Wed done the white house chiefs of staff, the men who keep the president s secret. And the c. I. A. Directors are the guys who keep the nations secret. Its important to know this is not the history of the c. I. A. This is a story of the twelve men who led the most powerful Intelligence Agency in the world, and its a very human story. In fact, when we sat around a table and we were constructing the arc of this film, we agreed early open that every act should be an ethical dilemma because every one of these directors faces life and death decisions every day. Rose was there a Common Thread among them, a common quality about them . Yes, i think theyre rose patriots. Thats a given. You dont get that job if youre not. What struck me is the humanity. You see the c. I. A. In very stark terms. General hayden told us in the first interview, the American Public is a bit bipolar when it comes to c. I. A. , were either seen as jack bauer in tie 24 or jack the ripper. What people are missing is the ray of grey in the middle. You have human beings at the helm of this that struggle with very tough decisions, decisions that, personally, we learned. Rose its not black or white or obvious . Never, it comes back to what rahm emanuel told us, its not easy to make the decision. We get between hard and hardest. Rose was it hard to collect, to get them . It was a challenge. There was a war of attrition. One director after another. Week after week. We were lucky to get george h. W. Bush first. Hes revered by everyone at c. I. A. Rose he said thats his second favorite job. Exactly, and probably close second. George tenet was the last holdout. You know, talk about a shakespearean character, george tenet. Rose how is he shakespearean . Well, imagine if you had on your watch the c. I. A. Director, the attacks of 9 11, the enhanced Interrogation Program which many called torture, and then weapons of mass destruction. This is rose for which the agency was severely criticized. Yeah. This is a guy who faced not only life and death decisions but decisions that changed the course of history. So fascinating. And david petraeus, another shakespearean character. Talk about a fall from grace. So i think its just a remarkable cast of characters, and some of the most interesting characters in the film were the operatives and analysts gina bennett, who is probably one of the women who inspired the Jessica Chastain character in zero dark thirty, fascinating. And co pher black, right out of the maltese falcon. A straight shooed shooter. He helped the French Corral carlos the jackal, later became head to have the Counterterrorism Center and one of those who warned al quaida was coming prior to 9 11. Rose what did he say . Its a chilling picture cofer black and joran tenet paints preceding 9 11. The information we had now compiled was absolutely compelling. Its multiplesourced. It was sort of the last straw. Picked up the phone, called the secretary, id like to see the directors im coming out. George tenet is a very smart guys, chewing on his cigar, going back and forth, jumping up and down, his eyes are flashing. Its not just red lights. There were real plots being manifested. The threat continues to rise. Public pronouncements by people in al quaida was there would be eight major celebrations coming. The world was going to be stunned by what would soon happen. We decided the next thing to do is pick up the white phone, call the white house, were come doing right now. I said, connie, i have to come see you. Were coming right now. Present at the july 10 chows meeting, our National Security advisor Condoleezza Rice and other top officials. There will be significant terrorist attacks in the United States in the coming weeks or months. The attacks will be spectacular, they may be multiple. Al quaidas intention is the destruction of the United States. This countrys got to go on war footing now. So i slammed my hand on the table. Rose doesnt get any more dramatic than this, does it . But these are great Story Tellers in a way. Cofer black and josee rodrigues, the directr represents a 30,000 feet in the air perspective. Toarptives on the ground really the operatives on the ground provide the sense of immediacy, right there, us doing the dayin and dayout, and all of them are quite fascinating characters that tell these amazing characters. Rose was it hard to get mandy paninkin on board . We sent him the script, the rough cut and he called us back and said im ready. He was deeply affected by the story being unfair and he very much wanted to set the record straight and believed when we had dinner with him in berlin before the recording rose he was filming there for homeland. Yes, he was very happy because he managed to invite the three artists for dinner and wanted to speak to them and hear their grievances and hear them talk about how the show should be different. It was extraordinary he was so open. Rose so the film itself, how would you characterize it . I mean, is this a sense of how the c. I. A. Tries to figure out who it is and what its about . For me, its a couple of things. Its first atd foremost perhaps the overarching theme is how far should this agency go to protect america. I mean, what are the rules of engagement. Does the c. I. A. Go far enough . Does it go too far . Thats number one. But the other part of it thats equally fascinating to me is the humanity of these twelve guys. Rose the humanity. Ill give you an example. When we started the program, we had no idea this would become act one. But when leon panetta sat down and described for us in minutebyminute detail this ethical dilemma he faced as c. I. A. Director, when he was at the funeral for one of his young officers, elizabeth hansen, in arlington cemetery, and gets word from the c. I. A. Operations center that they have in the crosshairs of a drone over pakistan the mastermind of the suicide bombing that killed this woman and six orthoc. I. A. Other. Officers rose the doctor who got inside and the jordanian doctor who had been vetted by jordanian intelligence but turned out to be an al quaida spy, blew up it was the worst day since 1983, the bombing in beirut. So he gets word they have this guy who panetta says is a really bad guy, he was the mastermind of the operation, but there are women and children in the shot, as panetta put it. Ordinarily, he says, when there are women and children in the shot, we dont take the shot. So he wrestled with this, and hes a devout catholic, a former altar boy, he always carries his rosary beads arund and says his ail marys when he hail marys when he faces a tough decision, and he walks us through the process and you can see the agony he went through making the decision. I dont know if you want me to tell you what the decision was, but it was a life and death decision. Panetta, interestingly, had been around. I mean, he had been white house chief of staff, congressman. He was shocked to the extent which as a c. I. A. Director he had to make life and death decisions every day. Rose its interesting you say that. What was the decision . Take the shot. Rose take the shot. Take the shot. He called the white house. He spoke to john brennan who, at the time, was counterterrorism advisor to president obama. Brennan essentially told him, use your judgment, leon, this ones on you. And panetta said, great, im the one who has to say hail marys here. He made the decision to take the shot and it tid cause Collateral Damage and kill the terrorist family, but he decided the greater risk was let this terrorist go free when he was plotting attacks against americans. Rose those decisions are made all the time. I want to talk about enhanced interrogation, which is the classic discussion thats even back in american politics because donald trump today or yesterday said, you know, should bring waterboarding back because of what i. S. I. S. Is doing. Take a look at this number two, this clip about enhanced interrogation and well come back and talk about it. Here it is. Under c. I. A. Supervision, detainees would be slapped and grabbed, deprived of sleep, forced on to liquid diets, even confined in a coffinlike box with live insects. There was nudity. There was water dousing. Cramp confinement, stress positions. Then there is the infamous technique known as waterboarding. The body responds as if the body think its drowning. Am i happy we had to do it . Of course not. The president looked at the techniques and decided he was going to take two techniques off the table himself. I do not know nor do i recall what techniques were taken off the table. But there are some inside the c. I. A. Who have grave doubts. There were a number of those techniques that i personally felt were inappropriate, not necessary, beyond the pale. I was a senior officer at the time and i had expressed my discomfort and my concerns about these techniques, believing that they were going to come back to haunt us, the c. I. A. I did that with individuals, colleagues at the agency. Rose we were just talking about waterboarding. Your point was . Cathe mastermind of 9 11, really bad guy, Khalid Shaikh mohammed has not too much of a problem with waterboarding. Hes water boarded over five to ten sessions, 183 dousing of water. And what they tell us is he knew that the c. I. A. Would stop after ten seconds, so he would count. They would see his hand counting and look and say, okay, stop guys. But what really got him was sleep deprivation which is what worked for most of them. Rose why is that . The body breaks down. The point of enhanced interrogation is to bring them to a zone of cooperation. They dont ask questions when theyre doing it. Its not like the movies. They waterboard them, they bring them to the moment where you give up and youre between the lack of sleep, the temperatures, you know, you dont know where you are, and then they start to talk because they cant take it. Whats happening now, what happened in paris when we did the interviews a couple of months ago, they all were saying about i. S. I. S. , you know, when the bad guy tells you its going to come here and get you, youd Better Believe them. And the climate they were seeing, and talking right before, what happened in paris, was kind of that pre9 11 climate where we didnt really believe them. What were seeing right now, were facing the question that the french, our home country, is facing now of waking up and saying, okay, we need rose and the point thats often been said is they said they were going to do it, laid out the plan to do it and did it. Yep. Rose did you come up with a sense of what kind of interrogation works other than enhanced . Well, i think we came away with the sense that this absolutely passionate disagreement among the directors, the socalled wartime directors who followed 9 11, george tenet, mike hayden, porter goss, even mike moreel who was acting director and director under obama, mike put it succinctly and said there is absolutely no doubt in his mind enhanced interrogation tech initial necks saved lives, disrupted lots and took al quaida off the battlefield. On the other hand, you have those passionately opposed to torture. David petraeus, hardly a bleeding heart, who had more detainees than anybody in iraq, thousands of them, will tell you that the most effective way of interrogating is it takes time and still, but the most effective way is to become that detainees best friend. I think its interesting to see even leon panetta, who finds enhanced interrogation is torture, does say at the end, you know, but, hold on, if there is a scenario of there is a nuclear bomb in new york city, youve got the guy who knows, its very hard not to try everything at your disposal to get it. So they all say theyre against it but there is always a little caveat there. Rose the interesting argument where they do not close the circle is people who are tortured will say anything to stop the torture. Right. Rose on the other hnd, you dont have time to be the guys best friend if you heard the bomb is going off in 24 hours. Thats george tenets point. George tenet would argue that exception. George tenet would say every day for three years after 9 11, we faced the threat of a ticking time bomb. There were Credible Threats that bin laden had met with Pakistani Nuclear scientists. There was credible intelligence there was a bomb in new york city. No bomb was ever found. Tenet would say this is a ticking time bomb situation. Thats the difference in between these kind of two camps, the wartime directors and the ones in that beginning period. As tenet and others said until you were at the meetings every single day, hearing the horrible reports of what was coming, how and where they want to get us, its very hard to judge, at least in their mind of what they did at that time. As Michael Hayden would put it, one grain of sand at a time, a cumulative effort. But, you know, john brennan is fascinating on this subject because brennan was senior c. I. A. Official when the enhanced Interrogation Techniques Program begin. He was deputy to george tenet. He says he was troubled by them. He thought the techniques were beyond the pale, waterboarding in particular. He says he complained to others at the c. I. A. , and then i asked george tenet, did brennan ever come to you and complain about eneenhanced interrogation techniques . Nope. Ever came and said, george, maybe think we should rethink this . Nope. Brennan says, it wasnt as if i walked up and down the hall saying this, but should it have been louder about it . Maybe. He thinks about it a lot. Rose the other interesting thing we ought to talk a moment about is it is not just the c. I. A. Operatives that make the c. I. A. What it is. Its not just the men and women in the field who were doing this sort of what weve imagined from movies about spying, it is the really smart analyst back at langley who are putting two and two together. Absolutely. And especially, for example, for the bin laden cell named after the son of the leader of that unit were mostly women. They were called the sisterhood who were the incredible force behind the analysts. Gina bennett, mother of five, has been at the c. I. A. Since the 90s, has been incredible. And these are the people where you have the parallel with homeland in a way, even though Michael Hayden would say, you know, i had carrie was working for me, even minus the drugs, sex and bipolar, but the level of passion, the level of addiction almost to the work is what drove them day in and day out to amass through these mountains of information, these analytical minds, brilliant ones, and these were the great women behind it who, in the shadows, are responsible for that analytical work that, talk about these grains of sand, these are the women who helped with that. You also put your finger on a critical issue. We call it a battle for the soul of the c. I. A. Its a battle among the directors, an argument among them about what the c. I. A. Mission should be and has the c. I. A. Become so seduced by covert, paramilitary operations that it has neglected the analytical side which, you know, bob gates was eloquent on this. You know, he said, you know, imagine how different the world would be if we hadnt gone into iraq, if theyd gotten weapons womens right and we hadnt in weapons of mass destruction right and we hadnt invaded iraq. But when you focus too much on covert operations and drone strikes, for example, you pay a price by neglecting the analytical side. Rose movie the spymasters c. I. A. In the crosshairs, airs this saturday 9 00 p. M. On showtime. Everybody whos seen this finds it a remarkable sense of conversation between people who are running the c. I. A. , 12 of them and others involved in the c. I. A. Work, talking about their craft. An extraordinary film. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Rose good to see you. Thank you. Rose back in a moment. Stay with us. Rose sir tom jones is here. Hes known for his voice, his fullthrowed, unmistakable singing helped him sell more than 100 million records and score 19 top 40 hits in the United States alone. Vanity fair said he is a wideranging voice with the force of an entire brass section or possibly a wind tunnel distilled into a single instrument. He has now rine a book that chronicled his legendary career called over the top and back. Hes also released his 41s 41st studio album. Here is tom jones in our studio performing Elvis Presley blues from his new album long lost suitcase. I was thinking that night about elvis the day that he died day that he died i was thinking that night about elvis the day that he died, day that he died just a country boy that combed his hair he put on a shirt his mother made and he went on the air and he shook it like a chorus girl yeah, he shook it like a harlem queen he shook it like a midnight rambler, baby like you never seen, you never seen i was thinking that night about elvis the day that he died, day that he died i was thinking that night about elvis day that he died, day that he died how he took it all out of black and white grabbed his wand in the other hand and he held on tight and he took it like a hurricane yeah, he shook it like to make it break he shook it like a holy roller, baby with his soul at stake, his soul at stake. I was thinking that night about elvis the day that he died, day that he died i was thinking that night about elvis the day that he died, day that he died he was all alone in a long decline thinking how happy john henry was when he laid down and died and he shook it and he rang like silver he shook it and he shine like gold he shook it and he beat that steam drill, baby well, bless my soul, bless my soul he shook it and he beat that steam drill, baby well bless my soul, whats wrong with me . Me . Rose im pleased to have sir tom jones at this table for the first time and what an honor it is. Welcome. Thank you, charlie. Rose a pleasure to have you here. Thank you. Rose music for you began when you heard, what, rock around the clock . Thats when i was aware of rock and roll. But i was singing since i was a child, long before that. I was born in 1940. My mother says i could sing before i could walk. Rose is that right . Yeah. She used to carry me welsh fashion. The women in wales, they sort of strap the baby to their chest with the shawl around them so they could get on with the housework. Rose yeah. Apparently, my sister, who is six years older than me, was a calm child. But yet, when music would come on the radio when i was a baby in the shawl, i would start to move about. My mother said, what if i given birth to here . Rose natural movement. Yeah rose did you have tuberculosis. Yes, when i was 12. I was bed ridden from 12 to 14. Rose bed ridden . Bed ridden. For the first year. The second year, i could get up an hour a day. But i stayed home, though. Because when they discovered that i had it, there were these tb hospitals up in scotland and switzerland. They wanted to send me there. Rose they were called sanatoriums, right . Exactly. My mother said if you send him there, hes not going to get well. Rose stay here with me and ill make him well. Exactly, and she did. Rose what a great mother. Yeah. We lived in a threestory house and they put me in a room on the middle floor. So my mother was up and down stairs all day because the doctor said he cant worry about anything. Stress is the worst thing. Dont let him worry about anything. So she took it to heart and she rose you have said an interesting to me and ill tell you why. You said to be great in music, you have to have young ears. Yes. Rose what are young ears . To keep them open. Rose hearing new sounds . Yes because, you know, there are some people that have been in the business as long as i have, and they say, oh, its not like it used to be, its all changed now. It hasnt really. You know, youve still got to get up in front of a microphone and sing. Ive always kept my ears opened and interested in sounds, new sounds, new singers, you know, to know whats going on. I dont want to be and toldy but goodie an oldie but goodie. I want to still be in the ring. Im proud of the records i made because theyre still good and stand the test of time when you play green, green grass of home or delilah, they stand up. But i dont want to live in the past and say ill do the greatest hits forever. Rose how do you take care of your voice . Get plenty of water, get as much sleep as possible. Go easy on the alcohol. I never got caught up in the drug thing. But, you know, alcohol, youve got to be careful. Everything in moderation. And ive learned that over the years. Rose how many dates do you do a year . I used to do a lot more than now. I used to do about 200 a year. Rose out of 365 days, you do 200 . Yeah. I dont know exactly. Some years, you know, more shows than others. For instance, i did a European Tour for june, july and august, and that was pretty packed for three months. So im always singing somewhere because i love to sing. Rose are you happiest when youre singing . Definitely. I dont know what life is like without it. You know, ive always sung since i was a child. To take that away from me, i wouldnt know what to do. Rose who influenced you most . A lot of people. Mostly roots music. A lot of black singers. Ma hailia jackson was the first gospel singer id heard. I went to a presbyterian chapel. We used to do a song called the old rugged cross, you know, and i always loved that song. Then i heard m Mahalia Jackson sing it and i thought, how come we dont do it like that . But again, she must have rubbed off on me and other gospel singers as well, because when i was in school i sang the lords prayer one day and the teacher said why are you singing it like a negro spiritual . I said, i dont know what that is, im just singing it the way im feeling it. But i must have heard it. You know, Jerry Lee Lewis says, i was born with what ive got. I dont think anybody is. Rose were you influenced by pressley then . Definitely, when rock and roll kicked in. Elvis was doing what i was doing, basically. He was just reassuring me this could be done. Rose whats the biggest arena you ever played in . Well, i did some county fairs in the early 70s and they were 50,000 people at a time. I did five of them, you know, a quarter of a Million People in a short period of time. So i would think but then again, when i was with ed sheeran in australia rose who put you two together . I dont know. Thats a good question. Rose he was at the table not long ago, and he just drew an amazing response from young people who are devoted to him. Yes. So we went there for the australian rules football, and that was a big stadium, you know. Rose i want you see this. Take a look at this. This is ed sheeran. Here it is. Girls rule my world, they rule my world you dont have to be rich to be my girl you dont have to be cool to rule my world aint no particular sign im more compatible with i just want your extra time and your ladies and gentlemen kiss rose where did delilah come from . From les reed who cowrote with my manager gordon mills at the time, so id been friendly with less and he did the arrangement on the green green grass from home. He took it from the country, bomb, bomb, bomb, the old hometown, ding, ding, and spread it out. So les had been my friend for a long time and i was looking for a new song. He came up with delilah. My, my, my delilah why, why, why, delilah i can see that you were no good for me but i was locked in a place no man could see rose how many undergarments did you get thrown after singing delilah . Quite a few. That started in the copa in new york. Rose how did that affect you . Not in terms of what might have happened to somebody who had thrown something but from saying to the world this is one of the sex symbols of our time. The initial thing was the copacabana, a supper club, and i was standing on the same level as the people sitting at the table and they were giving me table napkins because they were sweating a lot. This woman stood up and lifted it, like this, and i went, be careful you dont catch can a cold. Because singing in clubs in south wales, whatever happens, you try to turn it to your advantage. Rose working mens clubs . Working mens clubs. You know, coal miners and their wives and girlfriends. Thats where i started singing. Whatever happens, if somebody throws a bottle, you try to catch it, say thank you very much, and drink a drop of it. So when that happened, i sort of did something wit and handed it back. But it caught up with me as time went on. They would bring it in hand bags and say, lets throw tom jones underwear. Thats not the reason i was there. I was there to sing. Rose it created an image it backfired. I became a nicker magnet. Rose yeah. Which i never meant it to be. It just caught up with me. singing you found a secret code i use to wash away my lonely blues so i cant deny youre the only one that can make me fly rose when will you say ive had enough . Or will you die on stage . Ill die on stage. Rose whats your biggest passion outside of music . Thats a good question. I dont really have rose really . No, honestly. Music is my life. I know its an old clichepyd8 r but rose performing. Yes, performing. Reporter presley came over to you once and said, how do you sing like that . Yeah, when i first met him. I met him in 1965, the first year i came into the business. He was coming toward me at paramount studios, i had gone to talk about a song for the movie. They said elvis is here and would like to say hello. I didnt know he knew i existed. I had a ballad called with these hands and elvis was walking toward me singing with these hands. I thought, if the boys could see me now. I used to sing the pubs and clubs in wales and used to sing elvis songs. I said, im going to meet him one day and they would say, please. So i was shaking his hands and all these guys faces were flashing in front of me. It was tremendous. We were friends from 1965 up until about two years before he died because he started pushing everybody away from him. Rose american blues had a big influence, too. Definitely. Rose even the rolling stones. Mick jagger talked about the influence. Everybody in the 60s, you know, which i started off in, we all listened to van morrison, joe cocker, the beatles, the stones, all of us the same age, you know, as john lennon, and we were all listening to that and wanting to do it. But it came about, like b. B. King said, if it wasnt for the british rock bands, the blues might have died, but they brought it and sold it back to america. Rose and loved the mew cat of it all. Yes sch and American Kids were asking me when i first came over, who influenced you . And i said big bill broomsy and they said, who . Rose it really is americas natural music. Oh, its born in america, of course. Rose the blues come from america. Yeah. The movies i was brought up on, looking and listening to american movies, all the great movies that were made in america, we had them all in great britain. Rose you were also on the same wavelength as Frank Sinatra. You were friends, too. Yes, and when i was in vegas the same as Frank Sinatra and Elvis Presley, i recorded an album called from the heart and it was a bunch of standards i did with big arrangements, and elvis had bought it and i said, what do you think . He said, we dont do that, tom. We leave that to frank. He said we. We leave that to frank. He said, dont go there. I said, but i like it. He said, yeah, but dont record it. Dont do it. You stick with me. Rose listen to what im saying. Yeah. And when i would see Frank Sinatra, he would say, forget that rock and roll, youre a great jazz singer, you could really get into some jazz. I said, well, i like doing it all, to be honest with you. So i was in a position where Frank Sinatra was fright pull me one way and elvis was trying to pull me another and i thought, what a position to be in, being pulled by two of the greatest singers ever. Rose what was it about sinatra . I think it was the tone of his voice. He had a demanding tone and i he was a very good singer. I learned to appreciate Frank Sinatra later on because rock and roll in the 50s hit me hard. When that came in, i thought all that other stuff is old fashioned, you know what i mean . But when you get older and you realize more about music, you know, than you do when you were a teenager, then Frank Sinatra started to make a lot of sense to me and i started to watch a lot of his old movies. There was one song when he did old man river, you know, in a musical, and you hear how great his voice was. So, you know, he had a quality that and he set a trend, you see, because singers after that, they wanted to sound like Frank Sinatra. Rose in the 80s, things went down a little bit, didnt they . For me . Rose yeah. Yeah, well, what happened was i got complacent. Not meaning, to but what had happened because of the success that id had in the 60s and into the early 70s, i was playing arenas in america throughout the 70s into the 80s, trying to get songs, but they just were not coming my way. And i thought, well, maybe they wont. Maybe ill just wait until the song comes. So i was playing places that maybe i shouldnt have been in, you know, and thats why you end up i was playing in place where is they had weddings in the daytime and singers at night. My son was working there. Rose mark. Yes, and he was trying to get the spotlight through chandeliers still hanging there from the afternoon. laughter to be honest, my son was he made me aware. He said, do you really want to play these places . You know what i mean . I said, right, yeah. You know, he made me aware. Rose you did what . Well, when my manager died, gordon mills, who was my original manager, there was a musical written by two british writers eddy segal and mike leander sent over these songs to l. A. And said they had been looking for a singer to sing these songs and had gone to Opera Singers but they were too operatic and they said, the only one is you. Gordon mills had cancer and he died. Then my son and my daughterinlaw sort of just, you know, took over because my son had been working with me, he knew me better than anybody else, and we listened to these songs and mark said, why dont we bring eddie siegel and mike leander over to l. A. And try them. Rose youre a family man, arent you . Yes. Rose lindas been with you 58 years. Yeah, we were kids together. Rose 16. I was almost 17 and she was just 16 when we got married in 1957. Rose how did she feel about all the sex symbol stuff . Did she love it . When we were kids, i would be singing at school, and because i come from a large family as far as aunties and uncles and cousins, and linda would come to see at birthday parties and weddings and stuff, so she knew that i was aiming for that. You know, i knew i could do it and she said, well so when i said, ive got to go to london. I met gordon mills who she knew from television because he was in a vocal group, so she knew he was in show business and theres a man that could do something. Rose Richard Burton was welsh wasnt he . Yes, i met him twice. I was in munich in 1968 at the bambi awards, which is the equivalent of the Academy Awards in germany, and i did with henry mancini, cabaret, and Richard Burton said would yo would you o have dinner after the show . So i went around the corner and he was there with Elizabeth Taylor and they sat me in the middle of them. Rose what did you talk about . He was talking about wales because, you know, he was to welsh. Rose and he was so literate, too. Yes. Rose read his diaries. I know apparently, he newsed to read a book a day. Rose i know. So he was there. Richard burton and Elizabeth Taylor. I was 20 years old in 1968. They put nee put me in between them. I remember Elizabeth Taylor saying, do you ride . I said, yeah, i like riding horses. She said, i had a pony when i was a girl and anthony eden came over rose the foreign minister. Yes, and he came over and she fell off the horse. And richard started to mimic and make fun of her. He said, when i was a boy in swansy, there were pit ponies that used to come out of the mine and we would ride them into the sea with horse pipes around their neck like this, you know. And i thought, oh, my god, you know, hes going off. Rose part of being the life that youve had is you get to meet so many interesting people. Yeah. Unbelievable. Rose and have dinner, rose somebodys in the audience that knows you. Exactly. Richard burton, Elizabeth Taylor, you know, invited me to dinner when i was 28. Its tremendous, you know, these people id seen since i was a child on the screen, you know. Its tremendous. And all the singers sammy davis, you know, great guy. And i became Close Friends with him. Dean martin was a little aloof. But Frank Sinatra used to say that, after theyd do the shows in vegas, theyd go watch buddy greco in the lounge and dean would sneak off because he wanted to get up and play golf the following day. So he was different to sammy and frank. Rose whats vegas like today . Well, its changed a lot. There is a lot of circumstance u soleil now. I think Caesars Palace is the only place they get headliners. Elton john, cher, celine dion well, they built the theater for celine dion. So i think thats about the only game in town now. Everything else has gone showy. Rose a lot of clubs and electronic dance scenes. Deejays get paid more money than anyone else. Theyre sound merchants and know what the kids want and are there to supply it. Rose you call this over the top and back, meaning . Well, i think i went over the top and sort of went into those comfortable areas, as i was talking about, and then thinking, wait a minute, you know, shaking myself and saying lets get back to recording properly. So i went over and im back. You know, especially with these albums im doing now because theyre more like what i was doing in wales, you know, back to brass tacks, you know, with a rhythm section, singing blues, country, gospelflavored songs that i had been wanting to do for a long time and now im doing it. Rose this is a montage of you. Roll tape. Well end with this. Good golly miss molly when i think about the bright lights, i think about you, girl girl you get another day older and deeper in debt what the world needs now is love sweet love rose thats the life. Im still having it. Rose and who took this picture . I cant remember who the photographer was. But it was a recent one as you can see. The the one on the back is 1964. Rose how old were you . 24. Rose youre 75 now . Yep. Rose great to have you. Pleasure. Great to see you, charlie, honestly. And my wife, big fan. Rose thank you. Tom jones. Thank you for joining us. Well see you next time. Its not unusual to be loved by anyone its not unusual to have fun with anyone but when i see you hanging about with anyone its not unusual to see me cry i want to die its not unusual to go out at anytime when i see you out and about, its such a crime if you should ever want to be loved by anyone its not unusual, it happens every day no matter what you say you will find it happens all the time and love will never do what you want it to why cant this crazy love be mine its not unusual to be mad with anyone its not unusual to be sad with anyone but if i ever find that youve changed at anytime its not unusual to find that im in love with you, oh, yeah to find that im in love with you, oh, yeah to find that im in love to find that im in love to find that im in love with you, whoa, yeah i said, its not unusual its not unusual its not unusual its not unusual to find that im in love to find that im in love to find that im in love with you, whoa, yeah captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org to find that im in love with you, whoa, yeah i said its not unusual its not unusual its not unusual its not unusual well, its not unusual its not unusual itsfk not unusual whoa, oh, yeah rose for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs. Org and charlierose. Com. Announcer explore new worlds and new ideas through programs like this, made available for everyone through contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Narrator from one of san franciscos top dining destinations, its a Birthday Party fit for a culinary king. Join Jacques Pepin and his friends rick bayless, ming tsai, and Lidia Bastianich as they prepare their favorite recipes, share memories and laughter, and a special toast for Jacques Pepins 80th birthday celebration. [ applause ] pepin hi, and welcome to my party. Even though i live in connecticut