Your pocket with the phone is remarkable. The ability to keep ahead in that space is amazing. Rose president obamas Foreign Policy and apples new product when we rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by american express. Rose additional funding provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we turn tonight to the nuclear deal with iran and other big Foreign Policy questions, including the rise of the issue of migrants. Today, 42 senators have voiced their support for the agreement and it is expected to survive a republican opposition. Wednesday, former secretary of state Hillary Clinton endorsed the deal in a speech at the Brookings Institution and said she would not h hesitate to take military action if iran attempts to obtain a nuclear weapon. And this former Vice President dick cheney called the accord madness and argued a better deal was still possible. Meanwhile, Ayatollah Khamenei ruled out negotiations with the United States on a nuclear agreement. Jeffrey goldberg, National Correspondent for the the atlantic and national recipient for the award for reporting. Pleased to have you. Welcome. Thank you. Rose while i have been away, whats happened in the ont want to talk to the issue of migrants. The pope is speaking to it, the president spoke in the last 24 hours. Well talk about that, but, first, where are we . Its apparent that the president has enough democratic support. Its all over the but the shout bug there is a lot of shouting. The republicans are trying to engineer various lastminute maneuvers to try to sink the deal or delay the deal, theres this whole maneuver republicans are suggesting. Some of them are arguing the deal doesnt exist because they were supposed to have seen all the provisions of the deal and there are side agreements between iran and the i. A. E. A. , the Atomic Energy agency, that they havent seen because no ones seen and they say, therefore, the clock never even started on the deliberation process. Theyre throwing a lot of stuff against the wall and seeing what happens. But september 17, this deal goes into effect. Obama has the votes in the senate. So sanctions are going to start coming off and iran is going to presumably start complying with the demands of the deal. Rose do we know or do polls tell us that the american people, the more theyve heard the less they like the deal . Yeah, not very popular in the american public. There have been a lot of millions and millions of dollars of advertising going up against it. The issue of iran starts at a deficit. Especially people older than 45, 50, think of the image of iran dating back to the hostage crisis, south not an easy sell. Its not popular in the public. Its not popular in coming either. We forget, this is going to be voted down in congress, you know. Rose right. A little political maneuver on the part of the white house has been sort of clever to frame it, well, we have enough votes to get this through. But actually, if they had a vote in the house tomorrow, 60 of the house would vote against it, i think 58 senators would vote against it, only a minority of legislators approve it. Rose the president can veto the revolution. The argument right now is between whether the democrats filibuster in order to avoid forcing the president to veto. The optics of the president vetoing this are not good. They have enough votes to filibuster and there is differing opinions on this within the senate. Some Democratic Senators arguing we have to have an up and down vote, everybody has to be on the record. This is important. Lets not just push this out of the publics mind. We have to state what we believe and, so, thats where the argument is now. But the deal is the deal. The deal is going through. Rose so what are the consequences of that . I norms funny you should ask. laughter i mean, look, this is the first time that iran is going to be held to a deal that curtails their Nuclear Activities for 15 years, 10 years is one mark, 15 years is another. Im amazed the number of people on both sides of the issue who are absolutely sure about whats going to happen. Anybody who tells you that, well, x is going to happen because weve done y, theyre kidding themselves, including the advocates of the deal. The advocates of the deal, this is what happens in washington, everything begins to get sold so hard that people lose a little bit of credibility because theyre arguing fanta sivment what will happen . Iran will probably comply with the deal for a while because theyre going to get money and keep the flow of sanctions relief coming. I bet theyre going to cheat on the margins. I dont know if theyre going to, ten or 15 years from now, move toward nuclearization. Theyre not supposed to, according to the terms of the deal. Obviously, the opponents like dick cheney are arguing well, cheney is arguing a whole other level of drama. Hes saying theyre going to nuke us, that this deal leads to an inexorable pathway that theyll end up by sending Nuclear Weapons our way. Putting that aside, a lot of opponents say this is a disaster, that this will lead to war. Obviously, advocates of the deal are saying if we dont do this, there will be war. Nobody really knows whats going to happen, though. Rose how has the president been as an effective salesman of this deal . Which go ahead. No, he doesnt like selling congress, its not his favorite thing to do. He doesnt like calling up legislators and explaining to them patiently why they should do the things he thinks are right. We know that. He has spent more time on this issue selling, sort of you know, artisanal selling of this issue than anything hes ever done with congress. He is better at arguing this case than the opponents of the deal are at arguing their case. Thats my personal opinion. Rose because facts aside . Again, ill show my hand. Is the deal perfect . No. Is the deal better than the alternative, which is no deal . Thats the reality. Rose and thats his argument. Created for themselves andeyve created for the world, that this is the deal, and if you dont do the deal, then bad things will happen, you know, yeah, the deas is better. I mean, if the deal didnt go through and now were talking about theory because it is going to go through, if the deal doesnt go through, iran would be free to go pursue its nuclear ambitions, the rest of the world would look at america as sort of a feckless negotiate. Rose with no more chance of sanctions. Yes. A lot of republicans believe america is powerful enough on the world stages to sanction iran. Rose heres whats interesting to me. Just today cameron, alan and merkel. Why we support the iran deal. It is said one of the important turning point of the Foreign Ministers of the p plus 51 countries came and said we believe if you vote this thing down, sanctions are over. Right. This was not russia and china telling Democratic Senators sanctions are over. These are our closest allies. Rose people who are imposing the sanctions. So if the deal went down, in short what would happen is the republicans would demand sanctions on companies that do business in iran. But since france, germany and Great Britain would all stick to the deal, their companies would be allowed to go into iran. We would be in a position where we would be setting up a trade war with our closest allies because well sanction french Oil Companies for doing business that the french government says according to this deal we can do, thats not a realistic scenario. Rose and theyre all in favor of this deal saying the president did all he could, we couldnt have gotten more, this is a good deal not a perfect deal but a good deal. Well never know if he can get more. The same thi is true if you go buy a car. Rose all are saying that. No ones saying im opposed because the president no, that happens later when everything goes sideways but now everybody is as much for the deal as obama is for the deal. And in the other p5 1 countries they dont have the legislative drama going on here. Rose what about the republicans opposing the deal say they will drown the deal . I think thats an easy thing to say on the campaign trail, probably a harder thing to do once you get into the white house. If you get into the white house and you call up not china and russia again but britain and france and germany and saying, well, were pulling out of this, its not going to happen. Rose russia and china are in favor of the deal. Yes. Rose the president said the russians are very helpful because theyre included in p5 1. There is a larger question. If youre a republican president and say this deal negotiated twi executive of the United States of america, we dont like it so were just throwing it away, you know, one of the hall hallmarkf American Power is our willingness to adhere to treaties and agreements that we sign. We are stable. We are not bipolar in that way. So if you go do that, whos going to negotiate with america thinking whatever they negotiated is going to stand over time. That is a serious problem. Therefore, i think that a responsible republican president would say, you know, well, i could bust their chops a little bit more on iran, i could watch what theyre doing, have zero tolerance for violations, but i just cant throw out this entire deal arranged by the international community. Rose there is also the idea that if theres a split between what the deal does and the rest of irans conduct. Thats what hillary spoke to, thats what the republicans are speaking to and is what the ayatollah spoke to. His statements betray a very nervous man. I mean, that man is very nervous about the consequences of the deal, which should give some kind of comfort to americans who are worried. If the ayatollah is worried, thats a good thing. He said, we pushed these guys out, america, through the front door, were not letting them back in through the window. Thats literally what hes saying. Hes saying, dont get any ideas about us moderating hes warning his people. He wouldnt have to say that unless he was worried that a lot of people even within his system are thinking, you know what, maybe rose who . Ouhani. Rose former negotiate. Very careful guy. Hes not talking about a new day and a new era. But i think that the clear signals from these socalled moderates are that we can talk about other things as well. Rose my impression is the Obama Administration, while not saying it and while carefully saying irans conduct is not part of this deal and carefully saying they will try to thwart irans conduct as every step and perhaps even with a doubling effort, they believe that they have an opportunity here. Right. Rose and that its better to face an iran who doesnt have Nuclear Weapons as youre trying to curtail their activity than an iran that has Nuclear Weapons. President obama is very careful about talking this way. John kerry is a little bit less careful talking this way. But i think they both have at least a hope that this will set in motion a Virtuous Cycle in the relationship. Iran will open up. Americans and iranians will come into more contact. Thcontact. The mod rats will be strengthened. There is obvious hope. They believe 15 years is a long time and in 15 years anything can happen. I go back to the point that nobody knows nothing. That is perfectly plausible and perfectly plausible that iranian behavior gets worse in the coming years because the revolutionary guard corps gets a lot of money and gives it to houthis and hezbollah blah and everybody else. They have to show theyre still relevant. And oil and everything else. All these things can be true. Riern is complicated like the United States. Rose and then there are the israelis. Yes. Rose the israelis made every effort they could to stop the deal. Further deepening the conflict between the Prime Minister and the president. Yeah. Pretty dysfunctional. Its dysfunctional except it has to function. Rose right. Heres the way i have been thinking about ts. The only reason there is a deal is because of benjamin netanyahu. For ten years he has been arguing and lobbying and cay geology and threatening on the subject of iran. It was a combination of intense lobbying that got the American Government to focus on this issue and got europe to focus on this issue. It was the threats that were judged to be credible by the pentagon, the threat of israeli unilateral action that got them focused on weve got to get sanctions in place that allay the israeli fears. So the sanctions brocket us to negotiations. Rose he prodded us into sanctions and sanctions delivered the deal. He was hoping sanctions would deliver regime change and be so crippling that the regime would collapse on itself. That was probably not realistic. It certainly wasnt obamas goal. It might have been a republican president s goal. Heres a guy who could have take an victory lap in the past several months and say weve gotten what we want, now im going to work with the president closely to make sure the provisions of the deal are as tough as they can be, but the man has a very black and white view of the world and thats reflected in the republicans. The issue is the idea of dealing with iran. The provisions of the deal are less important to the opponents including netanyahu and the republicans than the idea that you can negotiate with evil. This is the way netanyahu does not believe any deal is worth the paper is written on because the iranians are by their nature eliminationist antiseem mites that will destroy israel. Rose what does the president say. I asked him about the antisemitism of the regime. Ill paraphrase what he said he believes yes they are antisemitic, thuggish, obviously sponsors of terrorism, thats what the state department says, but they respond to pressure, they respond to incentive. I think he puts north korea and iran in different baskets. There is a selfinterest and reality basis to what iran does, what the regime does. And, so, he while he obviously signs the antisemitism finds the antisemitism onerous and repulsive he finds it logical and instrumental, to curry favor among arabs opposed to israel. I dont think the president believes iran with some pushback would ever dare try to harm israel with Nuclear Weapons. He obviously is very careful about saying, look, i take the threat seriously and israel is a close ally, but he is not in the same camp, obviously, as netanyahu on this subject. Hes not so apocalyptic. Rose what did the ayatollah mean when he said he didnt want israel to exist in 25 years . He doesnt want israel not to exist inta years. They believe th they have ben working through that toward that goal through their proxies hezbollah for some time. They have a the theological bel. He walks a line when he says it these days that obviously there are people in the system who have been cruder in the way they described it but hes reiterating in these statements Core Principles of the islamic revolution. The revolution are built on antiamericanism and antizionism. Rose the majority of the country doesnt believe in that. Israel has the most pro American Population in the middle east. After israel it might very well be iran. 30, 35 years of ayatollah rule has turned that country into a very pro american place. Rose partly because they look at the social media and they say, we want to be like them . I think i mean, this is not a formula for a policymaker but its good enough for me. I think the best antidote to islamist rule is islamist rule. You know, over two or three or four or five decades, it becomes quite tiresome for most to have the population that doesnt want to live under clerical rule. So they look at who does the clerics hate most, america . There must be something to say for america in that case. Rose shifting from that. Iran is an enemy of i. S. I. S. , america is an enemy of i. S. I. S. , israel is an enemy of i. S. I. S. I. S. I. S. Doesnt have a lot of friends. Rose except sunnis in the anbar province. Except in place where is it counts, yeah. This is one of the issues and i think this is why this issue is so complicated for people. We have shared interests with iran on a couple of fronts. In i. S. I. S. Territory, most obviously, and in afghanistan and in sort of keeping the taliban rose and perhaps in syria. You know, the iranians are so cynical in syria, they back bashar alassad. Bashar alassad and the iranians combined with the russians have created this refugee crisis through their horrible behavior, and so, its very hard to imagine iran being a productive player in that system. Its awful hard to imagine them being a productive player. Rose when the history of this administration is written im trying. Rose i know you are. Youve had really interesting interviews with the president , and you know the middle east and the israelis especially, is the Obama Administration going to come up with a pretty good grade on how its handled the Nuclear Negotiations but a very bad grade on how it has met the challenge or i. S. I. S. In the region . I dont want to give you the copout political answer on the first part, but we dont know yet. This iran deal would turn out to be one of the genius moves of modern diplomacy. It could. Rose it could change the region. It could. It could neutralize iran. His goal is to neutralize adversaries. In this case its take away the most potent theoretical weapon the iranians could have from him and thats what the goal is and if it works, then it works, and hell get credit for it. The issue is every presidency is a reaction to a previous presidency, right, and george w. Bush went all the way into the middle east and the greater middle east and barack obama came in and was elected to do one thing. The reason he is president is to but the michael corlioni rule plays out. When i thought he was out, hes back in. The argument is if we had done more in