Transcripts For KQED Charlie Rose 20140609

Life or radiolab or whatever, that is part of their selfdefinition, it now feels in the culture, generally, i think, like this is the big leagues, because what used to be the big leagues have shrunken a lot. So now were kind of on not only in audience terms at an equivalent place, but public radio and everybody in it, sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail, but they are all trying to make stuff that they think is great and they think their audience will think is great without any other imperatives getting in the way. A lot of listeners to the American Life have told me, like, theres a wave of shows that when they heard them for the first time they didnt realize radio could do the things that we do. You know, like, im told often, like, by people the first time they heard this American Life, like, they didnt think a radio story could be good, could have characters and emotion and you stick around because you want to find out you get caught up in it you know, that you would get caught up in it because you wanted to know what was going to happen and could deliver all the feelings that drama does and be funny and emotional. Charlie the love of storytelling and radio next for the hour. Theres a saying around here you stand behind what you say. Around here, we dont make excuses, we make commitments. And when you cant live up to them, you own up and make it right. Some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where its needed most. But i know youll still find it, when you know where to look. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications chicago, its American Life. Youre listening to radiolab. A day in studio 360. intermittent radio snip snippe i dont know how to explain it but something happened about 15 years ago. It miffed something to do with hiphop or just because that particular musical form is kind of wordy and performanceoriented or something, or maybe it was just npr grew to a size that it became sort of part of everybodys texture. I dont know precisely what happened but i know what you can feel, that more and more and more people were sort of married to it at just different points in their day, in the back seat of their car with their parents and then they graduated to other things that they found and they began to own the things that they found. You know, heres the weird part, in 1971 or 1972 when a gze a of people got together and said lets make serious newsmaking radio, that was a time when Walter Cronkite and dan rather were kings on television. Cbs was the tiffanys network, New York Times had the pentagon papers and bernstein with the washington post, so if you want to be a serious reporter, you do that. Casey kasem radio was countdown to music, and linda and ray and these people walk in and they go, all right, lets be like the New York Times, it was, like, stupid and silly and crazy. Now you look at these people, like the linda worthheimers, when i left npr and went to television, i noticed the people in television had a thing, they had a swagger, and you could feel it. And the radio people are all sort of mousy and quiet, selfeffacing. And then there were these tv people. Then you go to npr or even wnyc hello these are people and it happened, i think, for a combination of reasons, but suddenly closing your eyes and hearing something became totally not just a thing that people want to do but, for some reason, its a thing people seem increasingly to prefer. But the perspective of 30 years of watching it, you were there at the beginning. I mean, radio has a number of qualities, i think, that like a lot of listeners to the show i do, this American Life, theyve told me there are a wave of shows that when they heard them the first time, they didnt realize radio could do the things we do. Im told often by people, the first time they heard this American Life, they didnt realize a radio story could be good. You got calling up in it and wanted to deliver the feelings that drama does and be funny and emotional. You know, for a lot of people, thats news and they want more of it. Then i feel like theres a whole generation of us making this stuff where it feels like this where it feels weirdly although its the oldest electronic medium, it feels like there is so much stuff to do nobodys tried. It feels like everything is new, there are all these young people getting into it, who are just, like, lets take this baby out for a spin and see what it can do. Its a really particular moment. Charlie kurt, youre coming late to radio. Yes, i am. They allowed me in late. And part of the thing in addition to what robert and ira said, its a time unlike whenni rather was the king of audience and the rest. Audiences have been fracturing and getting smaller and smaller over the last 20 years in media and in general. On the one hand, a very successful radio show that has a million or two Million People listening, 25 years ago, that would be a piddling little audience. Today, thats as big as a Successful Television show. So in addition to all the quality and this smart audience thats now defines themselves because they listen to this American Life or radio lab or 360 or whatever, that is part of their selfdefinition, it now feels in the culture, generally, i think, like this is the big leagues, because what used to be ththe big leagues have shrunkena lot, so now are we not only in audience terms on an equivalent at an equivalent place, but public radio and everybody in it, sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail, but they are all trying to make stuff that they think is great and that they think their audience will think is great without any other imperatives getting in the way of, oh, well, 18 to 34yearolds like this or Middle America like or not like this . It has from its beginnings when it was sort of opening off offbroadway in 1971 been about trying to do the best it can and, even though its now swaggery and has the large audiences, by modern standards, it is still more than, you know, most commercial broadcasting is motivated by people wanting to create good things for charlie it was attractive to you because you thought you would have more freedom to do more interesting things . It was attractive to me because for some strange reason out of the blue they said, hey, do you want to help create this new show . I said, for sure. You know, having been a radio listener and not even dared to dream dreaming to be a wannabe, but they said we think you would be good at hosting a shows r show about arts and culture. Eth completely freedom in everything youve done. So why radio . Well, one thing, because i hadnt done it. You know, here we are at b. A. M. Of all the things i hadnt done and havent checked off my list, dance wasnt going to be one of them. laughter you never know so radio i mean, because i was so attracted by what by 1999 when they came to me and what was being done, i thats what you do when you have a job at a magazine. But sitting down with idols like mine or whomever and spending an hour talking to them, it was a thing id never done and the fact that they, i and my producer could shape that into radio, theres nothing like it. Charlie did you find it easy . No, i didnt find it easy, although i think the dirty secret of radio compared to, say, writing books is its easy in that there are other people, in my case these guys actually know how to make radio, i just have producers after i have an ecstatic conversation with one of my heros, they turn it into radio. Yeah, its really easy. Damn you, kurt laughter but the craft of having, as you know better than any of us, charlie, or as well, of having a conversation rather than doing an interview is a matter of trade craft and learning. Fortunately, you know, we had a year to figure this show out and to get me to at least an unembarrassing level of skill before we went on the air. Yeah, what was the attraction for you . Its hard for me to say. Its everything thats been said, already. But more personal, en. For me, it was something about its this mixture that radio can provide. It is ultimately about the voice. So its about somebody speaking to you in the dead of night and that relationship you can have with a disembodied voice where they somehow seem to fill everything. Andeth so authentic, you kind of connect with that person. I loved that. I loved the radio for that reason. But then i also and maybe it was around the time when i started listening to iras show, there was Something Else almost the opposite of that. Its like you hear these voices and theyre so particular and intimate and unique but theyre telling you stories which feel epic and large with the sweep of the best movie youve ever seen. So somehow its a marriage of the authentic voices but with just the feeling and emergent of a movie. So thats what i want from radio, i want to meet real people but i want them to tell me stories that are big charlie but the essence of what you all do is storytelling . It is. Again, i think, again, what everybody has been saying is the opportunity to, yes, tell stories, compared to television, in a relatively unadorned way. Its i have this idea, im going to talk to these people and then make that into story. Theres less tech knoll and stuff between you and that happening. And no adult supervision. Very little adult supervision. The degree to which each of us are given our heads to do what we want and abandon things that are working well to do something that we dont know if it will work is incredible, is amazing. It is true. There is actually an advantage in working in a medium that is forgotten and often declared dead is that you have sort of a benign neglect. Eaux kind of just play around and do stuff. Does podcast add to it somehow . Because its when you want it. Its literally in your head. So you get these earbuds and stick them in and the rest of the world is blocked out and its just you and ira, just you and kurt. So theres something theres something intimate about that. The other forms, you address a box, its a box thats sort of 18 feet away from you. Theres a cat, a woman, theres a child, theres laughter other things happen. But when its in your ear, its just you and then. And walker who runs wnyc was interviewing me for this gig, she said, you know, radio is a very intimate medium. I go, mmm i know that i had no idea what she meant. But its exactly this. It is this Single Person directly and almost unmediatingly speaking to you. Its as close to a book to reading a book by an author, you feelly feel that youre in her head, that it know about in the Electronic Media world, and that is, i think, part of the reason people, when they respond and do it decently, respond so enthusiastically. Weve added this sort of live medium, now, bringing all these shows to the stage at b. A. M. It feels from me from talking to each of you that its inspired even a different kind of creativity or even more creativity as you think about what youre going to bring in terms of your show to this venue, and then it changes up again. Yeah. I think part of it, the interesting thing for me, at least, when we started performing on stage, its like a giving yourself permission kind of thing. Its kind of the sense of, in radio, youre in a little airlift booth talking to people you assume are out there but you never quite see them, and theres kind of a learned humility that comes to that, where you never want to speak outside your knowledge. And theres a way radio has grown up. So walking on stage and confronting live human beings in the audience is dreaming slightly bigger for what we do. For me, i thought, okay, this is for real now, that there are real people. Never mind that when youre on the radio youre probably talking charlie so how did the two of you come together . Oh, jesus, jeez, i think is back to 2001, maybe. He was still a tv guy. I was working at wnyc charlie just a tv guy. I didnt mean to say that. I was trying to be as neutral as possible when i said that laughter i was sent to record a promo with a bunch of people, a 30second promo for the station. He was last on the list. Everyone else that i handed the scripts to read it professionally. He i dont know if this actually happened but, in my memory, he rips it up and throws it into the air like confetti and turns around and writes some crazy, off the top of his head thing about alien cults and oil tycoons. I dont know what it had to do with wnyc, but it was amazing. And sober and reasonable, im sure laughter i thought, wow, thats interesting, who is this guy . We started talking and within the first five minutes figured out we had five or six spooky symmetries. You know, i went to overland 25 years after him, i was working at mpr as that were as a freelancer and he started at that were. I did a stint at wbai and he was there and it was, like, whoa i was this echo of his life 25 years ago. So we decided we had to have breakfast. So how is that going to work out for jad, robert . What happens is we start having breakfast and im pining and being old and grand. At one point, jad brings me his wares, like, heres what i have been working on. So i put this thing on and i thought, oh, no this is completely new, it is gorgeous, it is strange, it is beautiful and its new in the world, and i said, okay, this is going to sound dumb but instead of me going la la la la, why dont you do that to me because you seem to know stuff i dont know and i kind of reversed roles from mentor to whatever ive become. laughter doing this, if you want to stay in the future and in the action, you have to sniff for beauty wherever you go and wherever you find it, even in this odd form of some you just say yes because otherwise, you just miss out. Charlie my philosophy, too. Yeah charlie ira, you once said, i think, the importance of using techniques of fiction in radio, putting interesting characters in narrative threads i mean, the things were doing on our show, i mean, its potdriven storytelling and stories that kind of live or die by whether theyre surprising and whether the characters are characters you can engage in. Like in the last few years, like, some of the stories have been developed for people try to develop them into movies which almost never grade get the made or tv series which almost never get made. But i get to feel time with actual screen writers and when i do that i feel like were speaking the same language when were talking about what a story is and how to shape and make it. I think radio is just immensely powerful for that kind of thing. I feel like, when the medium is new, it was generally understood that this is an amazing medium for telling stories, and then that kind of all went away. So the first time i heard somebody tell a story on the radio, i remember as a Production Assistant at npr, and i was working on a show with joe frank who would do these monologues and had actors do stuff, and i remember i was in the control room and he was telling this story and i said, i dont know what this feeling im having is, but this is amazing, and this is what i want to do. And i dont know, i think i mean, its weird that that went out of fashion for so long. And its been interesting as the show has evolved, when it started, we were just doing personal stories, really. And now as its evolved, we really try to do the news. Well send reporters into iraq for a month. Well sent three reporters into a violent high school for five months. Charlie five months . Yeah, five months. Yeah, this school which had 29 shootings in the course of a year, and we wanted to understand kind of what they know at that school. And its all the same things. Its much harder in a way to find characters in scenes in a surprising story when youre taking on climate change, and i feel like one of the problems i dont know if you feel this as somebody, like, doing stories on tv and doing the news, i feel like theres a whole class of topics that, as soon as you open your mouth, everyone is tired of the topic. You know, climate change, the republican versus democrat fight in washington, abortion, theres a whole list of things that we go, i dont want to think about that. I dont want more details on climate change, i know where i stand on this. Guantanamo, i feel like im very interested in guantanamo but i feel theres a whole class of things where we all know where we stand and i think, as journalists, its hard to know how to actually bring up the subject in a way that you can even make somebody want to listen or watch for a few minutes, and it takes such cunning, i find, and often well totally disguise what the stories are about for a really long time because were, like, lets just get some characters going, and i feel like understanding narrative, like understanding plots, understanding characters is just such an enormous tool to try to bypass that problem, and i feel like, as the longer the show is going on, the more interested it turned out to be this incredible tool, like i started the show as kind of a refuge from the news. I had been working on all Things Considered the morning edition before then and doing stories that were opining the tools applying the tools of journalism that were so small and personal that journalists would never touch them and then gradually i and the entire staff, we just came back to actual lets take on the budget deficit, housing crisis, mortgagebacked securities but only in our style and find characters and scenes and things that could pull people in the way somebody like Michael Lewis can in one of his books where youre looking for just exactly the right situation and characters that you can tell the story of something as complicated as highfrequency trading which he does in his latest book and people stay with you because its, like, these characters are amazing. So. And that, i think, is really where the renaissance comes, from collective cunningness. Like that wit and that seduction and all of the things that ira has to do to wea win you eithero Global Warming or his dancing and everything in between, thats someone who is restless. Jad, jimly, he will in jad, similarly will invent and invent only to catch your attention and hold it. And the tv world, there was a time in the early 70s when Public Television came in, in my sense of things, there was a rush of excitement early on when Public Television started, there was all kinds of experiments and Public Television just settled. These are the unsettled people who wont settle and thats why its doing well, because it keeps scratching at every itch it can find, and thats really interesting. That res naidz United States wit that resonates with you . Ira talking about convincing people to listen to this unfamiliar thing, we did this American Icon series where we take the most familiar american cultural things that people think, oh, yeah, i know all about that, and then, by spending hundreds and hundreds of hours trying to make a document rithat tells you a documentary that tells you about this thing that tells you what you know that reveals to you how little you know and interesting depths and things about it you dont know, that is the great challenge, to make athwhat could otherwise be, oh, its broccoli, eat it, its good for you, into, no, its candy, give me more its fantastic what you want to do is, ultimately, youre trying to do these worthy things that arent done otherwise, but to not do them in this kind of school, mistressy, know this but a its good for you way. Do it in this fresh and entertaining way and thats always the challenge. Charlie when you looked at these four guys, did you think in terms of unsettled and cunning as you looked at what it is that made them what you wanted on the stage at b. A. M. . Well, they kind of share a kind of humanity. Its not rushed. You know, television, film, these are things that are sort of, cut, cut charlie can i get a job in radio . But i think its kind of not rushed. They have the ability to sort of hang in with it and take it where it wants to go. And that also really lends itself to the medium of live theater, and the idea of fest festival, you know, what we try to do here is not just look at something in a quick hit and you get it and you go. What we try to do is look at a body of work. When you look at these guys, and you look at public radio, its a body of work that comes together over a long period of time. And that implies a certain kind of commitment and a certain kind of depth. Thats really what were about is trying to show that kind of depth through the live experience and, also, i think to have the audience right here, to have people respond is a very immediate and exciting thing and the ability to sort of jump from radio to this and then back again i think the way that i took the mandate is you have to invent something. Its b. A. M. , youve got to invent something. Charlie is there a tension between the two of you . Yeah. Charlie tension in that you see things differently . Yeah. How many hours have you got . laughter well, of course there is because, if you grow up listening to things you hear machines, music, jokes, ads theres a life in you and youre full of sound and your job is to make sounds, the only sounds you have are the sounds that are here. Well, if you grew up in the 50s and the 60s, i have a completely different set of sounds. Hes afraid that at any moment im going to suddenly burst into over the beautiful morning. laughter has to be in your show. Because thats happened . Well, you know, now like, if you were in the studio today laughter i suddenly burst into a Westside Story song today just to get him angry. So youre like a married couple . A little bit that way. laughter charlie did it get you angry . That particular i think he won the fight with Westside Story as an exclamation point, so it got me angry just because i lost the argument. laughter but, also, were filled with different music, thats for sure. Its just a generational thing. But its also that we more and more, were choosing ideas which dont have easy answers. Were, like, you are literally of two minds about something, and its really useful to have somebody there whos also of two minds about that same thing because we begin to sort of orient in opposition to each other, and if im feeling slightly more one way, its instings chiewl at this point, he kind of goes the other way, and that becomes a way to explore this twosided or threesided issue. You know how amazing its getting now . He wrote my wife doesnt have magical thitkng. Like, were doing a piece about things, and things are infused with all kinds of memories and things that you you know, if i have an extraordinary experience with a girl and i pluck some blade of grass during that experience, i put it in my pocket, i can take that blade of grass up the next week, and i can use the blade of grass to go back to that day. Okay. My life, nothing like it. So i take my wife to the Explorers Club on 70th street and i show her incredible things including a flag left by neil and buzz on the moon and picked up off the moon, and it was from the very first trip, of course, and shes being allowed to touch it. I said, took, a tamar, if you touch this thing, youre where neil and buzz and our species was when we came off of and shes like, i dont know, can i go now . And were now at the point y where jad wrote the tamar part, wrote my part. So when we got in the studio, we were sort of because we have all the tape he had oh, its so did he have to write lines no, he you and your wife were having a fight, a fight im very familiar with, throwing you as long as i have, so i just wrote both parts of the fight laughter i mean, im in your head, im in her head. He nose. Yeah, so thats just weird. But, yes, its sort of its strange. Its strange to meet somebody and and, you know, im actually very friendly with this guy, also. The thing is, when you do this for a living, you develop a body of work, of course, and you can be proud of it, of course, but its not a big industry, and you just find yourself a little bit in love a lot of the time, and these are these are your competitors, these are your comrades, but these are also the people who are sort of watching your back and people who you sort of belong to. I think when people listen to these radio folks, they feel a kind of warmth and a kind of sense of, ooh, that seems like fun, and they seem to be having a good time, and theyre giving off an animal instinct called growls and people want to sit next to that and touch it. The neat thing is theyre full of animal spirits, really, and thats very, very, very, very viral, and that may be, to answer your first question, like whats going on, the people smell a good time and they want to sit next to it. I think thats a very good point. Charlie i do, too. We all love when the great oddity happens and we keep it in the tape, on the air, when the interview is theoretically over but they suddenly shout and go, wow whatever it is, the strange little moments, whether an encounter in the field or something that happened in the studio, the sense that there is fun and quirk and noncookie cutterness as sort of an m. O. , i think people really respond to that. By the way, since were all gushing over how great public radio is, you know, we are members of the cult, but i think one of the good things about the cult is it is highly selfcritical. Ira, for instance, when i first got into it was dragged into public radio and i heard him give an amazing talk how public radio was failing to be innovating or interesting and was settling, which i thought was inspiring. And when we talked about pitch a story or this or that, the thing any of us on our staff can say to kill it is, ooh, just so public radioy, which is the bad version of public radio which exists. So i think as much as we all love this institution and the set of institutions and what were doing, were not oh, gaga, everything on wnyc is everything weve heard. Were full of we see how much better it could be in so many ways. I think its true. But with our journalistic colleagues who work in other media if they understood the curb situation were in, they would want to dom over. Youre in a situation where you get to do what you want on a bunch of Different Networks and shows so youre unusual. Unlike people on tv, theres not ratings pressure at all. Theres nothing. Theres nothing like that. Then unlike people in the newspaper or print business, like, the economic model of what were doing still works and, so, were not in this constant freefall panic of how long will we have our jobs. Charlie the test is how creative you can be. Yeah. Charlie can you satisfy yourself. And you want to satisfy an audience and the audiences are really large. Its, like, a million, two million, three Million People will hear everything you did which is crazy, and, like, you know, and, you know, the money isnt perhaps as good as network television, but totally sufficient to have an apartment, you know. And own a car and, you know, raise kids, whatever. Its totally fine. Charlie so when youre creating a piece, how do you know when it works . All of you . Whats the test . Its why it doesnt work for a really long time and you get it to work. Charlie it doesnt work till you make it work . Right. In my experience, most things are trying to be crap and its only through an act of will that you make them not bad. Charlie you go from crap to not bad . Yeah, like, you get to a point where you cannot be embarrassed and hate yourself. As a writer, thats all i knew is you start out typing whatever you type and go, ooh, lets rewrite that and do it again and again and thats exactly what applies to a radio piece is taking it from the raw crap in which there might be a shimmer of possibility and try to extract that shimmer. Its like very different shows, like one thing in the process that we will edit the stories over and over again. If i write a story, well go through it, and to edit it, i read the script, we play the tape, and each time we do a pass, we bring in one person who hasnt heard it yet. So by the time its done, if its not going well, there will be a room of eight or nine people and every time eve guy gives notes. Its a process, especially where you dont know how to shape them because youve never done it, nor has anyone, like those kinds of stories which are, fortunately, like a decent number of stories. Charlie i read somewhere where you kill a third or half of all the stories. Easily. Yeah. Thats crazy. You kill half the stories . Does it really get to that . Half . Are they bitle baby little baby stories that havent grown and you murder them or are these fully adult stories . If we get three or four stories that are good enough to be in the show, we will often make ten or 15 stories, but thats just looking at or getting a phone call. Then we go into production seven or eight. Then we spend a lot of money on them. On seven or eight. Yes, seven for three. Seven for three or four. And we do interviews and just run at stuff. In the ones where were not pegged to the news, theres no reason to listen to the story unless its super sparkly. Youre saying, how do you know if its good . It has to have a surprising plot and drive to an idea that isnt surprising. It has to be a story, somebody has a new idea in their head as a result of it. It should be extra points for funny for sure. You want it to have emotion. So you have to start making it. Sometimes, its going to be the easiest show well ever do a couple of weeks ago called i was so high. Were, like, lets get started. People tell funny stories about getting high. We have to fill a show. We put a thing on social media, send us your stories. We thought it would be the easiest picking. We got 2600 stories, and four of them were good. We learned something, which it says that listening to peoples getting high stories is like listening to their dreams. Theyre really not good stories at all. Even the four of us, a little bit of a stretch. So, you know, thats, like, three people, days to go through 2600 submissions. Have you ever killed an entire fullymade hour of radio . Not a full hour, but we have killed stories that were done and ready to go. Its been a while. Its been a while. But, yeah. Have you cut a full hour . No. God, no. laughter but weve killed pieces. Thats kind of, like, knowing somethings going to die we would put it out of its misery earlier. Sometimes it will be friday before we finish the show and we wont know the lineup. Because it isnt clear how much time each thing will be. And its, like, should we make everything shorter or just take one story out and use it next week . If you go carefully through the lineups of our shows, you can tell which is the story that was actually made for the theme before. laughter like, you have to be a super fan to want to do that but you can totally tell that is not the theme. laughter theyre just acting like its this theme. Charlie you once said what you have to do is go find somebody with a lot of knowledge and just ask them why. Did i say that . I think thats true. I think you ask them why and then you get an answer and then you get another answer. You ask another person why. I think the most interesting thing about when you know its good is when you feel that, given what you what talents you have and what time you have, whether you are not embarrassed the ira test . Jads case, sometimes its been amazing to me, we can sort of agree at the same time we passed the test. Do you know what it would be like if you and i were in the flower business and i said, i have three irises, you have three roses. Its going to be a three flower vase. I go, you go. No. I go, you go. No, you go and if we argued, wed never finish the vase. Luckily, we argue, then yes then we go home its true. Charlie is that called collaboration . Its called finding beauty. Agreeing. Its very humbling, too, because you spend you know, a lot of the work is extremely collaborative and a lot of it is solo, just you locked in a room wrestling with something, and you get to a point where you think, this is good, im hot i think this is amazing. And ill send it to robert and hell send me these classic sevenpage emails where he points out, he brutally, with fierce insight, point out exactly why its not working. And if i could bottle the feeling of reading those emails, it would be perfect for your fear show laughter but its very humbling when you feel like youve got it and you realize you dont have it. But someone else needs to complete it. But then its quite beautiful, i find, when you kind of walk across the line and you realize, we actually have something that none of us could have done alone. And as an only child, i find that mystifying. I continually find it mystifying. Another thing should be said probably about our three shows is theyre all weekly or less. And which gives us all the luxury of having the artisnal, kill pieces, getting it just right approach. Charlie the experience i dont know. I dont know about that, but we are not doing daily shows, which is a whole different beast. Charlie tell us about the fear series. Well, its actually the show were doing right here at b. A. M. Charlie i know. And because these guys invented the idea of themes. We said, we should do a theme for our show as well, and fear is a capacious theme that drives artists to create art and all of us to do things wise and foolish in life and it seemed like a good theme to propel our show, the show which has this incredibly reflective cast next week of andrew berg, the musician, and novelist Jennifer Egan and others, so, how else are we going to tried to make a try to make a coherent scheme of this rather than apart from establishing a theme and when we said to each of them, how about fear . I cant tell you how quickly each of them said, yep, im down with fear so i guess we discovered the universal feeling and fear is it. Will there be a point in the fear show where the audience will be afraid . They will be very afraid, yes. Charlie are the things you can do on radio you cant do in writing . The real conversation well, you can do it in writing. You do it especially in fictional as opposed to nonfictional writing, but having the moments, the pauses and inflections and tone of voice in conversations, for instance, that charlie you cant do you cant do in magazine writing. You cant convey that this real sense of what this rapport or loolack of rapport is really lie in writing, because, also, the description required to convey it in writing would be greater than the thing itself, whereas the spoken word is just its this conversation. Its this highly edit, constructed conversation, but nevertheless a conversation in which the listener can sense exactly whats going on if you do your job well. What are you most proud of that you created for radio . Its not a particular show. Its just like, when i started the show almost 20 years ago, i dont think i didnt have the power to imagine what it would be today that i would be working with a dozen producers who are so skilled and interesting. Like, other people werent doing these kinds of stories and every person who i hired like i started the show with three other people and me and every person i hired had to train to do these sorts of stories. Then the thought that now i work this the most amazing people. Like, i feel i know its corniest thing in the world to say, but i feel just proud to be their peer, and often im not the loudest or brightest voice in the room at all, you know, and i feel proud of that. I feel proud of them, actually. I have to say, i have this whole conversation feeling like and the most we describe it were more like artisnal chefs that work at a restaurant that put out one meal a week and we have the gal to talk to you in this very day. Its a typical wednesday. You did two hours of live feed this morning. You did a half an hour about president obama on television. And were like, oh, we turn out, like, a show a week. We go over and over it. Your experience of this whole thing, do you just feel like we sons of bitches yes, thank you and i dont want you to feel like youre in a position to lie or be nice to us. Do you feel just like, oh, thank god i dont do that its so much more fun to be like prepping and doing the thing because we i did daily broadcasting, you do daily broadcasting. You must thirks thank god, its not me when you hear us do this laughter charlie no, i just dont have the luxury of making it perfect. I mean, i dont. But you are a bill moyers baby. What do you mean . En he started, bill moyers puts his hand on charlie and says, go with my blessing the thing about this business is, over the course of your career, you can choose different rhythms. Charlie exactly. There are jock reporters, wake up in the morning, with have a press conference. Some lady on the 104 bus, not a reporter, but sits in the back of the bus and announces this morning, today i will be at the press conference of the City Council Vice president , and when you watch evening television, she is there. She is in the background she is the star of her own show shes sort of just bringing up the rear everywhere in the audience laughter i think its kind of neat. But, of course, as i was suggesting, it should be acknowledged that there are people who go to work and they want to tell you this just in and want to get it right and fast. Charlie but im not doing that. No, theres the one extreme and then theres bill moyers. If you look at what we do here, we have to put it in the context of a whole season. You have theater, dance, music, opera. You have to, you know, have blockbusters, you have to have discoveries, celebrities, you have to find new, youve got to figure it all out and then how do you pay for it . I mean, theres these thousands of challenges. But its really interesting that being mere in brooklyn, when we kind can of when harvey, my predecessor started, this institution was old, had been there a long time and no one wanted to come to brooklyn then, particularly, so in a certain way it was very liberating because we could do whatever we wanted if we could figure out how to pay for it. So in a way it allowed us to invent an institution rather than have one imposed on us, and that spirit still exists now which is how we ended up with this particular program, and there is something great about that. I love that brooklyn is a thing. Now its a thing. You said you met brooklyn people and i took that to mean not geographically from brooklyn but a state of mind. No, theyre from brooklyn. Is the pressure different for you now . Yeah, its different but it also, you know, instead of hearing people complaining all the time about coming here, they are here, and, so, in that way, its a lot easier. But now we have to keep up the momentum, keep up the momentum and really try to deliver a great product all the time and to keep all a these different parts of it going. So, in many ways, its sort of like what you guys are doing but its also very different given that, you know, things come, they go and theyre gone. Let me ask all of you this is this American Life becoming Something Different . Is it evolving toward i mean, how do you see the evolution of it . I mean, i think it is. I feel like its a very show than it was ten years ago. Charlie so where is it going . I dont know. Charlie you dont know. I dont know. Charlie thats part of the excitement for you, the continued attraction is yeah, of course. Truthfully, were talking about starting another show in the next few months. Charlie yeah. And coming into the podcast business with a bunch of other projects. Charlie finding your own distribution and all that . Yeah, yeah. But, you know, its, like, the most interesting stuff we get to do is the stuff we never did before. I am really loving the science part and jad is, like, okay, thats good, weve done that. You are totally leaving science. Were not totally leaving. Were just stepping out on it. His thing is he wants to so what you do is its like what i was saying, you cant answer the question where are you going except you answer it by saying, well, im not staying where i have been. Thats pretty much the answer. And you see what happens. No, i mean, actually, you have to keep it interesting to yourself and hope that that makes it more interesting to listeners. Its a zero sum game here. Charlie they give it up and you take it on. A little bit. Weve started doing these hourlong decrementries that i mentioned about specific works. Charlie like moby dick. We said, hey, listeners, make us a 30second horror movie and well have wes craven judge it. We had 300 people make incredibly timeconsuming, productionintense horror movies. So we do more of those, bringing the listeners and keep it interesting. Charlie on that, keep it interesting. Thank you all of you very much. applause captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org every single bite needed to be twinkies in there. Its like a great big hug. About as spicy as i can handle. My parents put chili powder in my baby food. French fries all over the table. A lot of chewing