And theyre just freaking out. I mean, hes back he wants his bicycle, his bed, his shoes and his own relationship with uncle sam. Rose tom friedman for the hour. Next. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose 2013 was a big year in foreign and domestic policy. Joining me now is tom friedman. Hes friend of this program and a Pulitzer Prize winning columnist for the New York Times. His book from beirut to jerusalem was updated to reflect the change of the region. He travels around the world. His most recently visited saudi arabia united arab emirates, china and singapore. All of those names and bilines will appear in his columns. Im especially pleased to have him back at this table as we look at where we are, where were going and where we have been this past year. Welcome. I apologize for my voice. Off column in todays New York Times i dont know whether secretary of state john kerry will succeed in his two big chosen priorities trying to forge an Israeli Palestinian peace in a detente with iran that deprives it with a Nuclear Weapon. But i admire the way he dares to fail. Its the only way to become a consequential secretary of state. And i admire his strategy trying to conduct a diplomat they makes it implausible for israel, the palestinians and iran to continue avoiding their big existential choices. Tell me what the choices are and what do you think kerry is doing and what is his strategy for doing it . Well, you know really what the headline says, charlie, it really reflects my gut feeling toward him which is its just great to see a guy break all the rules, go through all the red lights and just say i know i shouldnt be doing this because i know you all think its impossible and i probably said it was impossible but im going to try and im going to bring Incredible Energy to it. By the way, mr. Gnat gnat, mr. Abbas, when you tell me youre too busy today, thats okay, ill sit in the lobby and see you tomorrow. This is just a rail relentlessness to this guy. Rose and not telling everybody the details everyday. And they havent leaked. Rose not one leak. Hard to find. So hes really kept a tight ship. I think hes done it in a smart way. But we what do know is this, charlie. Hes basically lets go for the iran deal first. What hes constructed to the iranians is basically a choice. Do you want to be a big north korea or do you want to be a persian china . Do you want to be a country thats powerful and feared because youre building a Nuclear Weapon in which case youll be completely isolated or do you want to shrink that Nuclear Program down to one which you and your neighbors in the world will be happy to live with and instead build your greatness around empowering your own people to realize their full potential. We forget because irans been isolated now for 34 years. A lot of our life. This is a great civilization. This is a great were talking persia here. And its been completely suppressed. And i think by saying to the iranians were ready to let you enrich up to your Actual Research and electrical needs which are minimal were ready to acknowledge your own pride that you have developed your own ren richment capability. Were ready to do that but were not ready to allow you to become a Nuclear Weapon state. If youre ready to buy that deal you can be part of the Global Community again. Thats a real choice. With the israelis hes basically said you have three choices in life, you only get two. You want to be a jewish state, you want to be a Democratic State and you want to be a state in all the land of israel, israel and the west bank. But in this world you only get two out of three. Buck jewish and democratic but you cant be in all the land of israel there will be too many palestinians. You can be democratic in all the land of israel but you cant be jewish and buck in all the land of israel and democratic and jewish but you cant be democratic. Okay . So youve got to choose. Which one do you want to be . And what kerrys strategy is, charlie, is to go right at the security issue. Basically saying you have a legitimate security concern. Even paranoids have enemies and the israelis today legitimately they have nonstate actors armed with missiles nested among civilians on four borders sinai, gaza, lebanon and syria. Thats no joke. What kerry is basically saying is lets take on that security need that you have. And by the way, we know some people who are good at security, our own pentagon. So he goes to the former marine commander john allen, he says come with me, lets design take on this project. What would be as foolproof a security plan you can put in place here . And then say to israelis, you know, one of the most important things ive always felt in dealing with the israelis is if you want to be taken seriously there you have to answer one question for them. Do you know what neighborhood im living in . And i think kerrys starting can conversation there. Saying i know what neighborhood youre living in. Heres as best i can design a security plan. In order to say to you if you go there way, no. What hes trying to say is i can change the balance between risks and opportunities. Theres going to be a balance, but doing nothing is always a big risk. We see mounting Israeli Palestinian violence. We see groups like the American Studies Association in america now joining the movement to delegitimize and isolate israel. So doing nothing and so what kerry is trying to do is saying im going to put this choice before you and i think the balance of risk and students are here. And where the opportunities are greater. Rose and do you find, do you believe from those other places like tehran and like ramallah, that these questions are finding some resonance . Yeah, definitely. You see them wrestling with them. So lets go through a couple of examples. I saw an interview the other day with the Iranian Foreign minister, ja have had a zarif. And the iranians went nuts and said were going to walk out well leave and this is a violation of the interim agreement. We have the same objectives so ill say about the iranians, i think ill step back and context everything is. Sobly the iranians at the table . Because they had an election several months ago which you and i talked about at the time in which sex men were allowed to run. Only men, of course, and these were their names mr. Black, mr. Black, mr. Black, mr. Black, mr. Light black. Okay . One guy was just a little more moderate than the others. Rose and guess who won . Guess who 51 , 50. 4 of the iranians voted . Mr. Light black. Out of the blue, by the way. And im told the actual number was 64 . The regime was so freaked out they said he squeaked by but they know what it was and what that told you is down below theres a huge quest of all these iranians half the countries under the age 30, some huge number, theyve never heard of the shah. But they have heard of facebook. They have heard of twitter and theyve heard of the internet and the European Union and america so the iranians arent at the table by accident. History works this way. In fairness to secretary clinton she deserves credit for putting these sanctions in place, the ones that got russia and china on board and president obama as well. Really turned the screw. Rose and they had a different iran to work with. Absolutely. By the way, a different israel. The condition now, different palestinians. So im not criticizing her but history you know, i showed this up in beirut in april, 1982. Israel invaded six weeks later. Theres dumb luck and serendipity in all of these things and kerry came along with the right energy at the right time. Rose right. And willing to take the risk. Exactly. Rose hes not thinking about running for political office. Not running for anything. Theres a swan song. So he acts like a guy, you see the frenetic way hes traveled but with a purpose. He acts like a guy saying ive only got so much time. And god bless him. Rose but where does syria fit into all this . In this equation you just because hes taken risk there is too. Rose lets go back to our ripeness idea. And Richard Haass from the council of Foreign Relations wrote about this a long time ago. Maybe syria now is getting to the point of exhaustion where all the parties will be ready to come to the table. I lived through this. I lived through five through 10 of the lebanese civil war. Lasted 14 years all told. How did the war end . It ended in 1989, it ended, charlie, on once principle no victor, no vanquished. No victor no vanquished and the minority, because of lebanon, the christians needed overrepresentative to assure them the final deal. I said in the very beginning syria will only wednesday no victor no vanquish. The idea that the alawites will defeat the fundamentalists, the fundamentalists will defeat the alawites, thats a question. When do the parties there basically say were ready to step back . Rose you have ryan crocker now saying former ambassador of iraq and syria reengage with assad. Even though we said, you know he should leave, you dont necessarily have to withdraw that. You have to reengage. Circumstances are different. And the nature of the opposition is different. I think its very good advice and goes back to no victor no vanquish. We end to want to look, what assad has done is not just bad, its despicable, okay . The people hes killed, his own country, the way hes destroyed it. But, you know, in this neighborhood its hama rules. You know, theyre rose explain what hama rules are. Well, it goes back to the city of hama, back in 1982 when i just arrived in beirut. He faced a challenge then from the equivalent of the al nusra front, islamic fundamentalists who tried to launch a revote out of the town of hama, the fourth largest in syria. He crushed it by leveling the town. Im not speaking metaphorically here. I mean blowing up the buildings and steam rolling them. And that those are the local rules hachlt ma rules are no rules at all. So thats the way the regime plays but its not like the other side, charlie, are somehow representatives of virtue and madisonian principles. There are some decent people who are democrats but theyre not an empower mad jorty and somehow weve got to get everybody to the table, you know, negotiating my friend bob pastor works for president clinton, sharing with me an idea that worked for president carter, im sorry, working on which is that everyone should have to agree on three principles ceasefire, number one, number two you agree to majority election. You have to agree to that. But you have to agree that everybody gets to come to the table. If you try to construct a deal where you dont get to come by i get to come it will never happen. Rose everybody comes to the table because everybody wants to come to the table . Its not clear. And here, charlie, is jeff we have to take it up a level, where we need the russians involved, where we need them to lean on assad. We need the saudis to lean on the sunni militias and we obviously need to lean on everybody. I dont think theyre going to come by themselves but were getting to the state of exhaustions. I hope so. Rose and the russians can play a positive role . Im a huge believer and have been ever since you and i talked about nato expansion 20 years ago. That theres no big felon the world that we can solve in a Sustainable Way without the help of russia. Rose look at russia and the ukraine. And thats, you know, i will tell you part of that goes back to nato expansion. Nato expansion was the gift that kept on giving because what nato expansion basically said to the russians, we broke a promise to them, we pushed nato right up to your borders, it was humiliating to them. It was done under yeltsin and putin represents the backlash. And ask yourself this and unfortunately putins gotten addicted to this, charlie, but hes basically discovered, wow, running against america, man, this is like being in the tea party. This is good as it gets. So hes discovered such great domestic politics for him to run against america and the west. They want to keep us down, they want to encroach on our boarders. Im not a defender of putin, bad guy, wants to do bad things but at the same time we cant do anything without him. Rose and he has a strategy, too. He has a strategy from russia to play a role. Youve got to people forget this. The Russian Orthodox church plays a very Important Role in putins russia. In his psyche and the christians of syria are predominantly orthodox so you have the church there. People dont see this, theyre whispering in his ear that assad is the a protector of the christians. And thats a factor in their thinking, too, that i think weve ignored. You dont see that but its part of their thinking. Rose rep into this whole possibility of the enlargement of the shia versus sunni warfare exploding outside of syria. Id say a couple things, charlie. One is that we hoped when the lid came off with the arab spring that what we saw is something you and i and a friend talked about, we always see people grabbing their freedom from. So freedom from the assad government. Freedom from the mubarak government. Freedom from the qaddafi government. But what it turned out was they couldnt agree on freedom two. This is the berlin idea of what do you want to be free to do. Some wanted to be free to be more islamist. Some wanteding to free to be more sectarian. More shiite or sunni. And some wanted to be free to be more democratic. And thats the problem. There was no agreement rose wanted to be free to be like everybody else. In that sense to be like citizens. So because of that thats why weve seen all these revolutions sort of stall, because there really was no consensus what they wanted to be free to. Rose and a lot of times the people wanting to war were not necessarily good or were interested in governance. Exactly. Weve learned that lesson time and again. That its very difficult in these modern revolutions now where everyones kind of equal to develop leadership. And one of the pieces i take away from this is how much leadership and the right kind of leadership in particular really matters. And thats a Nelson Mandela point. That you need these popular movements to sweep away these regimes but whether its in business or politics, yes, the bottom is being empowered more, thats great and its exciting but you still need a leader. You need in the business, you need someone to edit whats coming up, all this innovation. And in politics you need someone to edit and direct. Someones got a little elevation, can see what where were going over the crowd. And thats been the struggle of all these movements from occupy wall street to tahrir square. Rose and you even saw it with people like yitzhak rabin. You need leaders. Leaders matter. Rose they matter and leaders are able to say trust me to the people. Im going to take a chance. Trust me, i understand your reservations, believe me. And as you suggested, Nelson Mandela, your famous point in invictus. Now thats surprising. Were not able to be like them. And thats whats so missing in the Israeli Palestinian context, the power of surprise. That bibi would wake up in the morning and just say abu mazen just lives 45 minutes from here. Im going to drive over to his house sunday morning. Whatever. Or, by the way, not just be with it but for the king of saudi arabia saying i dont just have this peace plan, bibi, come to riyadh. Can you imagine the shock to the israeli people to see their president fly in an el al plane . Its so rare. Rose and imagine the challenge of the president of the United States when he finds out that israel and saudi arabia and the emirates are on the same page and theyre saying to him were not sure we can trust you. Were not sure you know what you mean when you call that red line. Were not sure if push comes to shove youre going to be there. Id say a couple things about that. That is telling us a big point. Which is that underneath the sanctions, as long as they were in place, they were disguise ago whole set of differences between the parties. Because so lets go through them. America, israel, say saudi arabia. So for america, we actually are comfortable with an iran that were ready to tolerate an iran that can enrich Nuclear Materials providing we can prevent them from making it into a bomb. Why is that . Because, charlie, we tried, lord knows you and i talked about this. We tried for ten years after 9 11 to control the middle east, afghanistan, iraq, with our own boots on the ground. We have not been very successful and we paid a huge price. Going forward we feed to be able to stabilize that area without being by ourselves. How do you do that . By balancing the two big Sunni Scheidt powers. We need a relationship with iran and what people forget is when we went into to afghanistan, the iranians played a vital role in helping us defeat taliban, a sunni fundamentalist militia that the iranians oppose. If we want to get out of afghanistan and leave stability there, we need them as well. So we have a need for our own relationship with tehran and also, remember, this is a great civilization, a multicultural, Multiethnic Society not unlike ours in terms of its ethnographic composition, that is its own whacky limited democracy, empowers women. This is a country thats a lot like us. You know who sense that the most . The gulf arabs. They sense that rose thats why theyre their mortal enemy. Thats right. So we can live with a certain kind of iran. Now, the israelis also can actually live they can live with a strong iran as long as its not meddling around with hezbollah. The gulfis, for them iran is persia and shiites. They dont want them to be strong at all. So i was just in saudi arabia and the feeling you get there is kind of the cartoon image i draw is that iran was like the big brother who 34 years ago walked out of the house and slammed the door. Rose yes. You took his bicycle, i took his tennis shoes, he took his bed. Okay . 34 years hes gone and we all had an undiluted relationship with our uncle sam and he was never there last month, knock knock. laughs stock . Hes back and theyre just freaking out. I mean, hes back, he wants his bicycle, his bed, his shoes and his own relationship with uncle sam. Rose and theyre talking to each other. And what they really sense and fear sr. That they like each other, stock . And so thats really thats freaking them out. So then the israelis have an interest around the nuclear thing. But i would argue even that starts to separate because the israelis would like nothing more to go back to what was a natural relationship between jews and persia is very deep and long. If every jew lived in persia there would be six million more jews alive in the world today. So we also know that in our own d. N. A. So these guys sense all of that and my message to to them is dont fight try to fight this . Youve got to build your own relationship. Do you want to spend the rest of your life replaying this shiite sunni fighting from the 7th century . Hows that going to work out for you. Rose do you think the iranians would be willing to do what you asked them do about hezbollah . Do you say youve got to stop supporting hezbollah, you have to let them go . Because if they let them go its all over for hezbollah in lebanon, isnt it . Absolutely. And i think you know, i need your help in afghanistan, you need some boeing spare parts . Okay for those boeing planes you bought 30 years ago and dont have the spare parts. The cool thing is, charlie rose and it all plays together. Everything in motion. Exactly. And thats whats exciting about this and when you have a secretary of state whos ready to play i was watching cnn yesterday and they had an interview with a senator who is the senator from where robert levinson, this guy missing in iran, is from. And i made a note of it. He said so i called the Iranian Ambassador at the u. N. Yesterday and i said could you pass this message. Whoa roll that back. And he said by the way, i called the iranian you see how quickly things open up and where no one even says hey, wow. And you bet the Iranian Ambassador took his call. Rose explain levinson. You know more about than that than i do, im afraid. Rose for example, my colleague john miller, former f. B. I. , who know it is family has asked me would i interview the iranian president mahmoud ahmadinejad. So ahmadinejad, one time i asked him and basically he said, look, you know, he knew of him when i mentioned him, knew who he was about, didnt say the me hes a c. I. A. Guy but a lot of people in america didnt know that. That was a disclosure we just had. Right. Interesting. Rose but they kept sort of suggesting they had him. Interesting. Rose but then you had zarif saying we dont have him. If we had him wed deliver him. Those poor people in the family, we have such sympathy, if we knew where he was we would tell you. I dont understand it either. If they did have him and turned him over, let him go home, boy, that would unlock a lot of good will for them. So the thing about iran, there are veils inside veils inside veils and you never know which veil youll have. Rose and everybodys gut reacting should we trust them. No. Rose the same way its why should we trust the palestinians they started lobbying missiles. But these are legitimate questions and what kerry is trying to do is saying i hear you. Im going to build up as much security structure on this side and im going to lay out this opportunity on the other side because you still have the Arab Peace Initiative which says if you and the palestinians make peace youll have relations with every arab country and every islamic country. So hes not coming to them saying no risk, nothing to worry about. These are good guys, they told me. Rose and hes not saying its not that your point is a bad point. Right, let me address that but build up the opportunity side and put them a balanced choice for you. Rose so youve been to china and singapore. Just recently. Im worried about them kicking the press out. Rose heres my question about china. If you talk to people now what theyll tell you that the consensus is that china went through this phase called peaceful rise. Now its gotten so big that they dont need to rise so peacefully anymore, you know what i mean . Thats one theory. Rose or we can have global demand. Right. Rose like japans island. Exactly. I come at it a little differently. I think its a frightened china more than a rising china. I think youre sitting where xi jinping is sitting and you are, charlie, riding such a tiger. You now have 300,000 bloggers. The pollution is so thick i couldnt see you if we were sitting on the street. The problems they face are so gargantuan that i think they are as frightened as they are feeling empowered. And i think we should keep that in mind. You look at the islands issue in the south china sea. Theyre making the claims of the islands. But the japanese havent been innocent in going out and buying the islands, poking china. These people are have a history. You see in downtown seoul they have these guys riding on horse back and theyre all generals in the war since japan and you remember these guys have their own history outside of us. Korea china, china japan, we talk about middle east and cultural and tribal wars, they have their same versions there, theyve just been able to suppress them with Economic Growth better. Rose but xi jinping has more problems in terms of how many people he has to bring from the rural areas to the urban. And when you bring them now they have to have a job. If they dont have a job then theyre part of the problem. So i spoke at a university in shanghai last month and what was so striking to me is how many times i got ask the question from young people there that i get asked in america. Which is am i going to have a job . And the big challenge for china right now is that theyve got to get rich before they get old. So think about china. 20 years ago china was the story of two maternal grandparents and two paternal grandparents and two parents all saving for mac laptop for one kid. One child policy. Now its going to flip. Now that one kid is going to be paying the nursing home bills of maybe two grandparents, one set of parents, and for that kid to be able to do that, he needs a job that isnt just stamping out the glass for iphones. He needs a job thats knowledgebased. That has real value add. Because those Assembly Jobs also theyre moving to vietnam, theyre moving to cambodia and to have a knowledge economy, well, you have to loosen up a little bit. Were going to have a knowledge economy but you cant use google. Really. You cant use bloomberg and you cant read the New York Times. Let me know how that works out for you. Rose laughs the people youre competing with . Theyre all doing that. And you have your chinese versions. But and i think thats the challenge they face. And i think its terrifying. And, by the way, i wish them well. When i talk to speak sometimes, charlie, i dont use the word china. I much prefer to use the word onesixth of humanity. Were talking about onesixth of humanity. Rose seven billion there. Exactly. So how they make the transition between where they are now to a more open sloot hafkt everything from the quality of the air we breathe to the value of the currency in our pockets to the cost of the shoes on our feet. So i wish them well. Rose i have a chinese friend who has some power and connections and he just sent me an email from china saying im working hard to get you and your program seen in china. Interesting. Rose and not just in beijing im making some progress here. Youre well known in china. He said i think you would be seen by about a hundred Million People. Now, thats a small part of the chinese population. A hundred Million People . Thats onethird of the entire population. Onethird of the entire population. Rose china is my second biggest book market. Thats true for movie makers, car makers, thats true for everybody. But thats also true for chinese and something bill gates said in the world is flat a long time ago which is that in china when youre one in a million 1,300 people just like you that. s when youre one in a million, you know . And so the law of large numbers kicks in and thats why i wish them well. We need to be very smart about drawing red lines where necessary, building bridges where possible. Rose we draw red lines in terms of how do you incorporate in terms of questions of freedom of expression and human rights into drawing red lines . Because that gets tricky if you look and say how do you apply that policy here . How do you apply that policy there . Well, i think the efforts in our clinton years and first bush years failed. We tried to dictate that and it failed. The president used to go with a list of Political Prisoners we wanted to release and they said thats not going to happen. We have to come to terms with the fact that its going to happen at their own pace. The point i tried to make in writing about the press issue is that what seems to be chinas leadership hasnt realized is that something really big happened in the world in the last decade and i think world went from connected to hyper connected. Three things are happening at the same time, charlie. Wealth gets concentrated at the top in this hyperconnected world. If you have Global Skills now you can really were talking about china. If you can access to china market, whether youre a ballerina, a t. V. Interviewer, a journalist, an author or an athlete. So wealth gets concentrated at the top. But power gets distributed at the bottom and transparency gets injected everywhere. So in a world where wealth gets concentrated in the top at the china, the ruling family is amassing huge fortunes, but power gets distributed at the bottom. 300 million chinese online. I can see your ferrari, okay . And by the way, i just tweeted about it to my neighbor. You may cut that off but well find a way around it. Power gets distributed at the bottom, transparency gets injected everywhere. In that world you better govern in a way that people are going to tolerate. So it doesnt have to be democratic per se but it better be legitimate because youre going to lose your legitimacy. So whats the scariest thing for xi jinping today . Lets go back to bloomberg and the New York Times. Why have they been threatening to throw us both out . So the chinese economy over the last ten years gets financialize sod they develop a shareholder culture, markets, they have to comply with global standards. That means everyones ownership has to be registered in a public way. So what did bloomberg and the New York Times do . No one came to either of us, i believe. I cant speak to bloomberg but i can speak to the New York Times. No one came to us and said wen jiabaos mother is worth 100 million. That Prime Minister wen jiabaos mother is worth 100 million and his kids, aunts, and uncles are worth 2. 7. No one slipped an envelope under the door of our shanghai bureau. We hired lawyers and accountants and we just looked it up now imagine how scary that was to the chinese leadership now they think its conspiracy. Maybe somebody tipped off somebody in the beginning but the whole project was done with lawyers and accountants and public records. So in that kind of world, that kind of transparent world theyre going to have to govern in a different way. If they dont take this as a warning heart attack, you know . What bloomberg and the New York Times did in putting the stories together that the president s family was worth a vast fortune and the former premiers family was worth a vast fortune. The number one cause of death in chinese regimes in history is corruption at the top. Rose i was thinking about that as you were talking. Someone i know is head of corruption. The hes in the standing committee. Hes vice premier, hes got the title to clean it up, ostensibly we just saw recently a leadership one member of some one level of corruption gone. Rose their idea of cleanup, charlie was at the local level, press report on corruption, at the provincial state level, report on corruption but thou shalt not report on corruptions at the highest levels of the communist party. And they feel we broke a bargain and we feel they broke a bargain with their own people. At the provincial level he had gone nuts and got so greedy and then people could see it and they reacted. So i think theres a very important transition, we need to be smart about it. Draw red line when necessary, build bridges where possible. Dont feed the national inists because the regime can turn it against us by saying dwlt go the americans, there go the west, they want to keep us. Rose i want to talk about domestic issues but first, is there an Obama Doctrine . Has he changed or sr. There some consistency of thought and strategy with people like ehud barak are always talking to me about strategy. You have to have a plan. You have to have a strategy. Id have a hard timele with a rorschach west the barack obama. Where hes he going . For a couple reasons. One, charlie, is healthcare. Gov. When i was in saudi arabia they said what are the president s Foreign Policy priorities . I said thats easy, healthcare. Gov, healthcare. Gov, healthcare. Gov, healthcare. Gov. If that doesnt work hes a failed president. And he will have no authority or very limited authority to do anything. So he clearly has to get that fixed. I think thats so much air and energy out of every other part of the agenda that i couldnt tell you. Again, rorschach test, what is his vision, what is his plan for a second term . I couldnt tell you. And how hes constructed his team, if i wanted to be critical i want to say hes surrounded by people. Everybody has his back but nobody has his front. Theres nobody in his face. I ask myself, whos the person who gets in his face and says thats a really stupid idea or we really screwed up here, we need to do x, y, or z. Or lets get crazy, lets try a carbon tax. Forget what the pollsters tell you. Rose when you say that, tell me who has performed that role in previous president s . Who got in bill clintons face . Who got in george w. Bushs space . Who got in bush 41s face . Maybe the answer to that is different people at different times. Rose it could have been jim baker and george bush. I think hillary got into bills face. Among others. As far as george w. Bush, i dont know. I dont know enough about the inner dynamics of that. Whats interesting in terms of this president , on some of the important decision points, the question of going into syria and doing something more they walked around the rose garden. Rose it was universal. The universal idea was everybody say do it, you have to do it now and they didnt do it. On the other hand when he went into get osama bin laden, they were against him, too. He took that decision, turned out to be the right decision. Very risky. Very risky. I guess my general the president has done a lot of good things that i would praise him for. I hope we do have National Health care that works. I think its the right idea for the right time. Things hes done on auto mileage and theres things hes done that ive liked but the things that frustrated me about him charlie is that i voted for him for a reason. Im not supposed to say who i voted for but i voted for him for one reason. I thought he would change the polls, not read the polls. And hes done more reading than changing and it gets back to the kerry piece and the piece i wrote about Nelson Mandela. What was it that gave Nelson Mandela that moral authority . Its that at times he was unafraid to challenge his own base. I would say obama has never really gotten in the face of his own base which give mandela the moral authority to challenge the whites in a obama the authority to challenge republicans in a different way. In fairness to obama i think hes dealing with the craziest version of the Republican Party that any modern president has had to deal with. So i challenge my base and i lose them, i get the republicans coming to me . And in fairness i cant say that he would. I think we are dealing with a Republican Party now that is being led around by a tea party cult, whatever it is. Rose although the newest budget may suggest less of a power rose i hope so. But in fairness to him i would love them to take these next three years and just say im going to put on the table all the stuff off the table. Rose i think part of the income inequality should be him saying im putting this on the table. And it may be because of changed circumstances with what happened in attorneyian elections there are opportunities that would not present themselves before and because hes obsessed by health care as he should be he basically says to john kerry, you know you do that and let me finish health care and i really hope he does. Rose and im give you more line inthan ive ever given any other secretary of state. What im missing from the current discussion and this is not in any way all obamas fault or the fact that healthcare. Gov is taking so much of the air, the current discussion is dominated by taxes or no taxes, income inequality, entitlement reform. All of these things and theyre all important and legitimate. But nobodys talking about growth. All the things that actually will make solving those easier. Rose two things. One, ill come back to growth. One is how you factor in today we look at americas future the fact that we now have Energy Independence on the horizon. What impact does that have on the things weve been talking about and including our own domestic economy . Lets go back to the middle east. What do think intuit . I think in the last four or five years as we become more Energy Independent the middle east for america has gone from being a necessary toy a hobby. I have hobbies, i like that work on model airplanes and when i had hobbies somedays i worked on them, some days i didnt. And what they have sensed is some things have changed with us. The sense of urgency about the middle east is gone. And theyre right. Okay . Because one thing we know, were never going to face 1973 gas lines ever again. Now, how the middle east evolves and that it should evolve in a stable way is still a critical interest of ours because our trading partners china, india and europe are still dependent on middle east oil so its not like we can sit back and say i dont care what happens, let the oil price go wherever it is but the sense of urgency gone. I think the critical think is how do we use this bounty . Do we use this bounty to say were Energy Independent . Thats party or do we use it to say wow, we just got a huge windfall. Lets use this to as a bridge to a Clean Energy Economy if we take natural gas and use it for solar and wind well make a mistake, if we take natural gas and subs it too it for coal and dirty fuels well do the greatest thing we can for our kids. Rose i forgot to mention, what do you make of Edward Snowden revelations and what seems to be happening now with both a clear recommendation that the n. S. A. Has got to change and the president is suggesting very little because i keep reading all the stories and i learn a little bit more all the time when i read them. But i think if you add up everything, what comes through to me is that snowden was a whistleblower. And that technology had leapt ahead. Technologys ability to vacuum up information has leapt ahead of our ability not our ability but our almost paying attention to the regulatory adaptations we need to preserve the kind of privacy we need. I dont know as a country if we grant him asylum. Id be willing to consider that come back, give us everything you havent disclosed. Rose thats subject for debate . I think its worthy of consideration but i think in total the more i read, the more i see some of the legal judgments, i know theres debate about it, im not an expert in the area. I always still worry that were doing it at a time when we feel like there will never be another 9 11 and i think we do need an n. S. A. Thats compatible with our laws so i think there are real enemies out there but on balance snowden looks more and more like a whistleblower everyday and i think we should find a way to end this chapter. Rose he didnt act like most whistleblowers. Its a complicated case. I dont have the right recommendation but i think thats discussion we should be in. What does he need to do . What do we need to do to bring this to some closure. Rose theres also talking about the economy, we have often talked about nation building as a team. It has to do with education and science and the research and use of technology. It has to do with being competitive in the 21st century. And you look and point at the studies often. Were now 18th and 20th among nations who were ahead of us in education. I just wrote about the pisa result. Thats the most popular but it was interesting for me because i just flew into shanghai with the man who runs pisa and a woman who runs teach for america. And we visited the school in shanghai that won. This was really interesting. Theyll say you dont understand. They cherry pick those kids. 40 of those kids come from migrant families from the country side. Thats the chinese equivalent of disadvantaged neighborhood. And i go saying whats the secret . You can tell me. They stand on their head for 30 minutes in the morning . You make them hold their breath . They have double servings of dr. Tim . What is the secret . And it was so this school ten years ago was a failing school. Thats also very important. So they were failing and they put something in place and now their world so it wasnt like they were always there so the tse secret they developed this system. So if you dont have a scale solution, off hobby and that wont change the climate or anything else education is another scale problem and the only way you get a scale solution is when you have a system. A system that allows ordinary people do extraordinary things. Thats the only way you get big change so think about the last time you stayed in a european hotel. They gave you a plastic key card. When you got to the room the power was off, you stuck hit in the slot, all the power came on. When you walked out of your room for dinner, you took the key out all the power went off. Thats allowing you as an ordinary person to do an extraordinary thing, to stay in a hotel and save energy at the same time. So in you need the same thing for education. And the system is based on getting ordinary teachers to become extraordinary by in part allowing them to teach 70 of their time and spend 30 of their time on Person Development with other teachers constantly working on their craft. Rose a one on one session with the students . 30 of the time working on their own craft, professional development. The other thing they do with that 30 extra time, the teachers we talked to they said on average i have three email conversations or phone calls with every kids parents in my class every week. So they bring parents in and tutor them on computer skills and math so they will be better able to help their kids. Then they take their best teachers. Not that theyve made the average teachers better, they apply them for the hardest kids. So thats the system. The system is we take the average teachers and make them better and we take the Great Teachers and apply them the hardest problems. Thats really the key. Kids come to school prepared to learn not text. Rose how do you create a culture . Culture is powerful but culture can change. Look at kip. My wife is the chairman of the board. It was one of the schools in waiting for super man. They create a culture. Kip creates a culture where you have to have ownership over your own learning. A culture that says your learning and how well you will be directly connected to how well you do in the world. In the job, as a citizen. Young supreme to make that connection and when they dont have that sense of ownership ownership is the key to life. When you own something charlie, i can never ask you to do more than youll do on your own. When you feel ownership as a country, as a student. You as a boss here. When you tell one of your producers you own this segment, baby. And in the history of the world, no one has washed a rented car. I consider that like the 11th commandment. When people own things its amazing what they will do on their own. So we have to improve teaching in order that we dont end up as 18th or 19 . Because see how did we weve always laged in International Tests but what do we do . We had big immigration so we creamed off aunl all the global talent, they came here. That was one thing we did. We had a lot of walls to prevent competition from indians or chinese so we had that and we had a generation who were educate it had oldfashioned way. Real fundamentalist. That generation is dying off. And the calls have come down, we talked about this once before, to me central socioeconomic fact of our time is that average is officially over. Every boss has cheaper, more efficient access to above average cheap labor, above average robotics and, oh, my god above average cheap genius. So what built the middleclass in the cold war . It was something called the high wage middle skilled job. Stephanie sanford sr. A rose kind of began with im going to get these people. High wage middle skilled job. Today there is no high wage middle skilled job. Theres just a high wage high skilled job. Every middleclass job is pulled in three directions at. It either pulled up more skill. Out, more people, computers, software, or down. Its being outsourced to history faster than ever so the thing that got us through the 50s, 60s, 70s and declining in the 90s and 2000s it wont do it for 21st century. Everyone has to be in the process of life long learning. Rose and the internet allows that. The internet enables that. We can do it more cheaply. But reed hoffman, the founder of linked in, wrote this. Its a start of a you. You have to own it now more. It applies to me. It applies to average is over for me. I always tell people, you know, before this thing there w china started well, just think about this. I became a columnist in in january, 1995, for the times. And i inherited what was the office used in the Washington Bureau of the New York Times. What a thrill. I inherited the office that this great editor and columnist in of the times in the 60s and 70s use, james reston. I suspect mr. Reston when he was writing his column used to get up every morning and say to himself i wonder what my seven competitors are going to write today. And he personally knew all seven. Walter lipman, where joseph craft. I do the same thing. I come to the same office and say to myself say every morning i wonder what my 70 million competitors are going to write today. 70 million competitors bloggers, writers online magazines. Its incredibly enriching for me because i can see whats going on out there. And learning from people who werent traditional journalists but are full of insight. Its a totally different environment. Average is over for me, too. Just like everybody else. Rose thank you for coming. Pleasure. Rose whats the next book . Just toying with it now. The idea in my head is something about all the transitions ive mean . The last 20 years and it might be called second draft of history. You know, the first draft is the reporting. Second draft is the the reporting columnist in who says i think it might be about this or that. Rose who begins to see trends. And the third draft is the historian so im thinking about the second draft of history. Rose good luck. On the next charlie rose, a conversation with Leonardo Dicaprio and martin is scorsese about the new movie the wolf of wall street. It was just about everyone taking on this hedonistic attitude and giving into every temptation possible and every actor sort of that that air about them on set and so it allowed for all these insane possibilities every single day. I mean, everyone was kind of pushed pushed the envelope. But what was interesting more than anything and i think rose is it the most fun set youve ever been on . It was hard to get there in the morning sometimes because i didnt know what was going to happen. But the truth is we imp vitz a lot of this beforehand but then when we got on set and working with the other actors it became it spiraled into a multitude of Different Directions and it was very freeing in a lot of ways. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org what if i told you that you could change your life in just 10 days . The 10day detox is the fast track plan that will help you not only shed pounds, but put an end to Chronic Health problems. I want to teach you how to remove all that cleverly concocted junk thats sabotaging your metabolism and brain chemistry. I want to help you lose weight and i want to help you get healthy once and for all. Just give me 10 days and your life will never be the same. [cheers and applause] dr. Mark hyman is a family physician, bestselling author and internationally recognized leader in functional medicine. In this program, dr. 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