Men and breaking bad. Those are all his programs. On the dramatic content side i think its probably fair to say that the sopranos was maybe the first show that put everybodys heads upsidedown and was surprising and was dramatic with an antihero. Mad men when we did it seven or eight years ago was also surprising because of the nature of the drama was unlikely and people were not as one thought they would be. We thought it was breaking bad. Then there was this proliferation of other dramas that were surprising. Today theres a whole abundance of them. I think one of the things that happened was that technology, including that which you spoke about netflix and v. O. D. , both on cable and via the internet met quality story telling. Charlie leibovich and sapan coming up. Funding for charlie rose was provided by the following. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Charlie Mark Leibovich is here. Hes chief National Correspondent for the New York Times magazine. The Washington Post described him as, quote, a master of the political profile with subjects revealing themselves in the most unflattering light. His new book is called this town two parties and a funeral plus plenty of Valet Parking in americas guilded capital. It is a darkly comment portrait of washington culture and pom ticks. It is also unsparing in its criticism of many of the citys power players done with humor. Humorous book reviews have asked will Mark Leibovich ever eat lunch in this town again. I am pleased to have him back at this table in a different capacity. Thank you. Thank you, charlie, great to be here. Charlie i mean this is really interesting from a thousand ways. Eating lunch in this town i think had to do with the famous quote in california and hollywood. Exactly. Charlie never eat lunch in this town again. Whats the origin of this . The origin of this is, i think, first of all just living in this town and working in this town for a while. I do think. Charlie this town being washington. This town being washington d. C. I mean after a while, i mean, people say youre cynical, youre a reporter. If youre a reporter in washington its hard not to be cynical or cooped in a way. If you were to look at this psycho analytically maybe theres part of me that wanted to check myself before getting into deep into this world. Charlie you have been coopted yourself. That would be dishonest. Charlie or live in a cave. Exactly. But i do think that the inspiration for this was actually at tim russerts funeral in june of 2008 which is the opening scene of the book and just watching it degenerate innocently into this networking opportunity and cocktail party. Charlie people came to be the funeral to be seen as much as to be seen. I think they were paying respect. There was a lot of sadness in the room. There was a quality to it. Clearly people were working. You see business cards flying and people congratulating. Charlie at a funeral. It was an epic scene. Charlie you talk about so many people. You say about former president clinton and the former secretary of state, that they do funerals well. They do. I mean, the clintons are he can betters at mourning and funeral. I feel your pain. Thats one of his signature lines. Again that sounds cynical. I think it comes from a place of genuineness but clearly if you talk to anyone who knows them, they are pros at sickness, at other peoples misfortune. They do empathy well. Charlie i guess it was mike allen who said this is a d. C. Takedown. Is it a d. C. Takedown . A lot of people have called it that. I mean, look. Charlie was it intended to be . I dont think it was intended to be. I mean it was intended to be basically hold a mirror to a culture. That sounds a little bit pat. I think ultimately people have focused on the takedown elements, right . Who really comes off worse, the tidbits. I mean, you know how books marketed and sort of talkd about these days. I think there is a larger point here which is that washington has become extremely selfsatisfied at a time when the rest of the country has been extremely dissatisfied with it. Its become an extremely wealthy community. Charlie and it caused therefore cynicism about washington. First of all the cynicism is there and it has been for years. I dont think readers or people outside of washington have a full appreciation for the carnival that this town has become. But, look, i mean, its been uncomfortable for me as an insider. I welcome the discomfort. Charlie you create a discomfort here. Its nonfiction. Its true. Its a work of journalism. It goes after people. I try to do it without crossing over into meanness, but i think that, yeah, clearly its a tough book. Charlie whats the line for meanness . I dont know. I mean i think you always have to watch it. I dont want to be known as a mean reporter. I mean, i probably fail on this occasions but i think i probably. I mean, i hope ive stayed on the right side of it. Charlie some people think meanness gets you higher than being good. Yeah. Its true. I think any good journalist will tell you that theres a great deal of soul searching that goes on in the process of a work that takes you a while, right. Charlie how long did this take . Three years which is longer than i thought. It actually worked out well chronologically but it begins in the obama years. Charlie its about the obama years. Its about the obama years especially the obama years but the president himself is somewhat absent from this. This is more about the festival that is gathered around him. Charlie but people within the white house are not absent from it. Yes. Charlie anybody that you pulled your punches because you feared what they might do to you . Would you write about the powers to be at the New York Times . Probably not. Someone else has though. Someone else does that. Charlie but you probably wouldnt do that because of fear or. Quon if its fear. Charlie make life difficult for you if you do that . Its not something that i would want to do. Charlie because its what . Because i work there. Look, ill be totally transparent about it. If i wanted to write a takedown book about my employer, i dont think it would be very, i mean, smart. I mean i love my employer. I love working at the New York Times. I have tons of friends there. It just wouldnt be something i would welcome. Charlie i dont understand and i mean theres a failure for me the difference in a takedown and a revealing portrait. I dont either. A takedown is an easy headline. Politico was calling this a takedown for months. They wrote stories anticipating it and predicting who would be taken down. I mean, look, its a shorthand mythology that washington is built on. Speculation is also a very thing in town. Charlie its also saying what people already know. But for somebody to say it, its a bit like a satire. Says something that everybody is thinking. I like to think so. Look, the notion that washington is resented both from the inside and the outside is not news nor is it new. I mean, people have fundamentally been very, very cynical about washington for a long time. Again i wanted to flesh out the picture. Charlie even title this town caught some controversy because. Well, a little bit. I mean, i think first of all to refrain. People always say in this town ive been here for so long and so forth. Look, i think its a good title. Frank sinatra has a song called this town. Charlie what have been the reverberations about it in your judgment . First of all pretty heady in that people seem to be reading it now and people seem to be enjoying it. The reviews have been terrific. I mean, i think whats interesting about it is there have been a mix of a few angry phone calls and emails. Charlie to you . To me. Charlie give me an example. Mostly in the vein of, how dare you. Charlie how could you be so wrong. Whats interesting to me is i would say the bulk of the critique has been arent you violating an unwritten code of people who are inside the club writing about their own . And ive actually been asked that. Heres what i would say. Journalistic ground rules are one thing. I honor them like any good journalist would but these unwritten codes that piece theme are talking about i dont quite know what theyre talking about. Charlie it could have been in part. Exactly. It leads to the kind of groupthink and conventional wisdom that makes washington wrong. Charlie is washington that much different from any other city, whether its new york or hollywood . I doubt it. Theres a big vanity sector in every city you described. Charlie and power brokers in every city and people who write about power and there are characters and cartoon i haves. Heres is one big difference. Washington is supposedly given over to public service. Charlie you expect more from washington. I would think so. Look, public serviceis usedded a lot. Not a lot in washington d. C. Its almost used ironically. People now go to washington to get rich. This was not true 20, 30 years ago. Charlie they go there for their second job. They do. If you look at the best and the brightest, the notion of talented people going from, you know, whether an Ivy League School to make a difference and leaving or just sort of making their mark as a Public Servant has been largely given over to, again, going there to maybe get into office for a few years but then just settling down as someone who can trade off whatever you did in government. Basically be set for life. Charlie for what purpose . They do this to go to washington so they can get a job after washington so they can make money . Thats usually how it winds up. That might not be their initial motivation. Most people like to say theyre going to washington to change the world. Charlie is there still a merit october arrest . I think there is. One of the points of this book is its very much a mediocretocracy. But there are a lot of extremely mediocre people in government but also in politics and consulting and on toe vee who by virtue of having that brand and having that celebrity appeal itself becomes an end itself. If youre someone who knows this town, you can sell your guidance to some corporation or to some lobbying firm or media outlet. There is an endless market for that. You tell the story of people who have servedded five minutes in an administration and spent 25 years dining out on it. In a sense often becoming in the process a pundit as if you know more than anyone else did even though your time in power was limited. Speaking as a journalist, i mean, punditry has sort of replaced reporting as the Gold Standard of what i do. Charlie has that happened in new york and in other places, i ask . Absolutely. Reporter the only difference youre suggesting is is that we should expect more from washington because its the seat of our government which is supposed to do. Yes. Theres an expectation but also these are the people who run. Two things. First of you will these are the people who run your country or think they run your country. Two, it wasnt like this 30 years ago. I think athlete receiptically, washington has been transformed by wealth and new media i would say more than any other city in the country. Charlie i dont know that to be true. I think back of people like walter lipman. Sure. They have always been there. Charlie they play the power game extraordinarily well. Yes. Charlie ben bradlee was a great friend of jack kennedy. This is not new. It is not new but all of this has been in some ways democratized and exacerbated by the proliferation. Charlie and multiplied. It used to be a clubby circle of a few hundred insiders. Now its a sprawling conversation where again frankly mediocre people can rise to, i dont know if to the top but certainly to a brand which has become a huge word there obviously. Charlie why do you stay there . Gaws theres no more fascinating place for you. Im fascinated by it. I continue to love politics. I love my job. My family has a good life there. If i can sort of separate it, its a very Pleasant Place to raise kids. My wife likes her job snairms beautiful city. Beautiful city. Frankly, life is what happens to you, right . Charlie while youre waiting to do something he is. I mean, i have dreams of living elsewhere. Ive been there for 16 years and perfectly happy there. Charlie here is the other question. Will they care six months from now but do they just move on to whatever the book is and whatever the criticism is and whatever it is. Maybe. Charlie does it have impact . I think it does. Here is why. First of all its a very small sample size but a couple weeks of feedback because this has gotten into your bloodstream pretty early, about early in july. A lot of calls from Political Science professors. A lot of younger people from outside the country who have read reviews, read excerpts and who have said this seems to have captured a moment. I think that moment is is is the 21st century in washington. I dont want to be comparing myself to other works of nonfiction. Charlie compare for a second. Michael lewis is one of my idols. Things like money ball and liars poker. They place in a moment in a realm. He wrote the new new thing which is similar to. It was a world. It looks at a world and profiles a world. This is not meant as a profile or a takedown of anyone person. It is a profile of a world. Charlie when you think about the characters and you think about the way it works and you think about the way washington works the number one person in washington is the president of the United States. Right. Charlie he came to washington as a young senator from chicago. Right. Charlie a few years later he was president. Because the time was so short between when he came to washington and he became president , did he believe he would be different . Because he was different . I think he did. I think he did. Look, i dont know the president. But i think theres no question. I mean you dont run for president for as long as he did and for as passionately as he did and for as effectively as he did without thinking that you can be different and you can be the changeagent that washington needs. I mean every president makes change but i do think that one of the great disappointments of this presidency if you sort of look at it from someone who believed the promise is there have been so many neverminds. Im not going to opt out of the Campaign Finance system in 2008. Never pine. Well do that. Im not going to work with super pacs. Never mind well do that. We wont let lobbyists into the white house. Never mind. Well do that. I dont want to make any grand declarations about whether he feels overor undercompromised here but i do think theres a sensibility inside the white house or inside people who have been around him that washington changed them more than they changed washington. There is actually a scene in the book in which that is explicitly stated. Its sort of a soul searching. Charlie explain it to me. It was a meeting in the middle of 2011 in which there was talk that the white house was not coordinating well with the fledgingalling reelection operation in chicago. The president convened a saturday meeting with about 15 aides including people from chicago and in new york. And the first meeting he said, look, i want to be very honest in here. I want to trust you guys its a fairlily big meeting we have a little concerned about the numbers. I want to make sure that we can talk about where weve been, where were going and get it all on the table. About the fourth or fifth meeting the president said, look, im very disappointed that i have not been more vocal in these first three years about and then he made a list. Gay marriage, climate change, immigration i think was one. And then the Campaign Manager was approached by one of the changechange authors. I think they worked a lot together. He asked about in meeting or asked about this conversation. Massena i think told the president about this. The president showed up at the next meeting which i think was following saturday. It was very disappointed just said im very, very. I trust you guys. This is really demoralizing. I want these meetings to continue. I any theyve been very effective but if they do, it will occur without me. Vice President Biden chewed out everyone around the table and the soul searching took place in which everyone asks why are we cooperating with books but also what happened to us . I mean, this never happened in 2008. Charlie all the things we said would never happen happened. Robert gibdz was very profane about it. I cant repeat it here. Did washington change us or did we change washington . The question was raised rhetorically. Charlie do you believe what some people have said, whether its the carter administration, the clinton administration, the Obama Administration or the Bush Administration either that in the end the town always wins. I mean, this is the story about the permanent feudal class which is a term from the republican senator from oklahoma. He uses this to describe this collosus. He speaks with a certain candor. Its interesting that he and obama are such close friends. My cynical bone does ache a little bit. I do wonder is this expedient . It does seem rather genuine. Reporter thats the interesting question. How can you be as a reporter, you know, what if in fact your intelligent bone is overruled by your cynical bone . I think it happens every day. Reporter cynicism always wins. No it doesnt always win. Look, im susceptible to authenticity. I think people can be very authentic. Theres a line in here from henry allen who is my former colleague at the Washington Post who is one of my idols. Im getting the line wrong. Its interesting no the effect that washington is a constant mix of authenticity and duplicity. There was another word. Charlie when i think about that, my first instinct would be thats true. But it was also true in rome. It was absolutely also true in rome. I do think again just the degree to which all of this has changed is noteworthy. I mean, yes, i mean washington does always win. I do think that this moment, you know, needed i mean i wanted to fully capture how that has played out. Reporter in fact in the end always, yes, there is something that can be described as a place. It could be a hospital, a law firm, a political campaign. But in the end it is shaped by real live smart cynical treacherous good people. It is. And theyre caught in their life in a pushandpull. That affects them. People are complicated in washington as everywhere. You know, part of my perspective is unique in that i have profiled hundreds of these people and