Around. Which was giving outlines and thumbnail stretchs for the last several weeks. So it was stunning. Bruni president degioia, as surprising to you as father mcshane . It was, this combination is truly extraordinary and poses a unique moment for the church bruni had you hoped for him . Was he on your mind at small no. Like father mcshane this came as a surprise but we were all wondering whether this might be the moment where the conclave might turn to the south. Look to where the church is right now in the americas, this is the largest part of the Roman Catholic church and the church in the southened s growing and we thought this might be an opportunity to be inclusive in terms of the leadership. Rose father mad mad reese, youre a jesuit. Was he on your radar and in your hopes before today . Like so many other people i was confused by the number of candidates that the media was presenting. Rose laughs really . Sy thought the conclave would go on for days and days but i happened to click on my computer and got one of the news weapon sites and it was announced that there was white smoke and then i turned on the t. V. To wait with everybody e. M. S. And so i was really shocked that a jesuit would be elected to be the pope. It was really surprising. Bruni jon meacham, what were your first thoughts were the name were goal owe splashed across the t. V. Screen . I liked the jesuitical conclave you have there. laughter i was totally flabbergasted. I appreciate being the diversity pick here. The lone pranlt. What i found so interesting it was Church Choice of the pontifical name. Francis is a fascinating historical and theological figure someone who was, like augustin, a convert after a fairly spendthrift use by legend he was incredibly devoted to the poor, to the outcast and intensely spiritual. Perhaps the first case of the stigmata was st. Francis. Also interesting by omission why this is the first time a pope has turned to that example raises an interesting question. Bruni well, perhaps it has something to do with his background. As were learning a little bit about him right now were hearing a lot about his not only attitude toward the poor but his own economic and personal humility. Are you struck by that . I am. Were told that he moved out of the archbishop palace in buenos aires, takes public transportation, cooks his own meals and makes a point of visiting the parishes in poor areas around buenos aires and has a reputation of being a very staunch advocate for the poorest of the poor and has taken on the economic powers that be in argentina saying that you cant forget the poor. Why are we in that part of the world which is grange fastest and in which the gap between rich and poor is also growing fastest. Bruni how is that way of living or that kind of personal style, how is that relevant to the role hes taking on now and does it tell you anything about how he may lead the church . Well i think that its an enormous lesson for the church to look at. A man of humility, a man whoa whos clearly chosen to be poor. As the archbishop of buenos aires he could have a fairly sumptuous lifestyle even. But he has chosen this way of living. This is a great challenge to the church. The church must not only talk about advocacy to the poor but must live with them, among them and serve them. So i think this is a turning point and its an important threshold moment for us. If i could pick up one other thing both from what joe was saying and what john mentioned. Theres another francis and i would love to know what was in the mind of the holy father now when he chose this name. Because as jon said, theres francis of assisi, but in the jesuit context, one of the cofounders with st. Ignatius was Francis Xavier and he was the one that ignatius sent as the first missionary and this is theres a double meaning, i think, at stake here, somebody deeply committed to the poor and to social justice and at the same time to reaching out to the world. And i think theres there may be something more to this. Bruni were obviously dealing with a lot of firsts today and one of the firsts mentioned is first jesuit. With what is the significant of that . What do we know to be true of jesuits that tells us something about this pope and how he may lead . I was watching some of the t. V. Shows and people were grappling with this, somebody says the jesuits are the commandos, the marines of god. Somebody else said jesuits are known for their discipline and somebody else had educators which is probably fairly close to the truth. But the authentic jesuit tradition and values are going to i think be very clearly exercised in this papacy because of the holy fathers background. He wasnt just a jesuit but he was also a man who was picked right after ordination when he was just 33 years old to become a teacher of new jesuits entering the society and after that he was made the provincial of the argentine province. So he was the leader among the jesuits then he was appointed rector of this theology school. To get those kinds of jobs in the jesuits means that this man really did understand and express much of the spirituality of st. Ignatius and thats his background and i think thats where his knew hew miltie comes from. And his love of the poor. I think one of the great gifts in the spirituality of ignatius is this thing about discernment and that means trying to tease out where god is authentically calling us. What are the forces that are pulling us away and what are the good forces that we should align ourselves with . And thats what, it seems to me, the next pope really needs the ability to carry on that kind of level of what ignatius called discernment. So i think his jesuit background is going to be extremely important in interpreting what pope francis is really all about. Rose . Bruni this has come up in this conversation about jesuits. Weve heard about jesuits as educators, they are known as intellectuals in the church. Weve just come from a papacy and a pope who was known as very bookish, intellectual and who was never quite comfortable as best we could tell with the ceremonial aspects of the role. Was never comfortable with the public leadership part of it. Do we know anything about what pope francis will be like in that regard . Is that an important open question here . It is an enormous part and i think were all living in thed that doe of john paul ii who mastered the means of public leadership, as you say. Rather in the way Franklin Roosevelt ha mastered radio or john kennedy mastered television. John paul ii created an icon, a platonic ideal, really, of that. And i think one of the things that was striking about the moment, the announcement was he did seem slightly awkward, but it was an awkwardness that seemed to communicate an essence that needed communication. Bruni it has to have a fetching humility to it consistent with his personal biography. It did. And an authenticity which, in this climate, is you sort of counterprogram. So theres an argument that if hes not particularly smooth that might actually be even more effective. It could be, sure. You mentioned Pope John Paul, which im glad you did. One of the distinguishing facets of his years was in the end we saw him whither and die on a public stage. Weve now had a pope whos the first one to retire in many, many centuries because of physical frailty, he says. Our new pope is 76 years old. Do you think fit gave the cardinals voting on this pause . Is that something that surprises you in terms of how vigorous he may be or how many years this papacy could last . Father mcshane . I mean, that really invites speculation. We dont know what they were thinking, what they were saying in the conclave and i dont think well learn much about it for a long, long time. The fact that they chose him is interesting because he is almost the same age that Pope Benedict was when he was elected. Actually a little older. And so really its that does give one pause. I think the fact that he was considered last time around, he was probably seen as a known quantity and as jack said before the choice of a latin american is some would say its safe and extraordinary at the same time. It is the where over 40 of the church lives. The fact that he had curial not curial but congregational appointments, hes well known in roam, that would have made him a familiar figure. Hes seen as wise as well as humble. Hes seen as a worker as well as a precider. He did take on the bureaucracy in the church in argentina and streamline it. He opened new parishes, he was engaged in new evangelization. I think if i can say this of course you can say this with almost infallible certainty because no one knows. Bruni infallible laughter infallible certainty on that. Bruni strange that word coming out in a discussion about popes. I think his humility which i think was on display today to ask the people for a favor and then say i want you to pray for me, in essence i want you bless me before i bless you was extraordinary. I think its the humility. The brightness, the spirituality the hard work, the directness. I think they looked past age and saw these things as many of the qualities that were talked about in the runup during the congregations and during the American Press briefings. These were the things that were talked about. Before we leave the age question, a lot of the question someone like me asks are predicated on political parallels. When we elect a president we expect a physicians roach that we look at and voters get the highlights of. Do we even know president degioia whether the cardinal electors know much about President Health of the people theyre voting on . Whether this is something that gets discussed or whether theres information swapd . Vfrjts we dont know what went into this decision. Sometimes after the fact there will be some sharing of information and a sense of what people were thinking about. But i think as my colleagues have all pointed out here, we have a man who has been entrusted with leadership throughout his life at a very young age. He was placed in a position of real responsibility. And throughout his life has demonstrated a capacity to exercise that leadership. I think i can probably Say Something that both walter and joe would be too humble to say. His formation as a jesuit ensure that in that process by which we he develops that capacity for authentic discernment its grounded in love and a respect for the poor and a way that i think will provide an extraordinary prapl work of which he can provide this leadership for our church at this point in time. Bruni jon meacham, if i can go back to you, in the buildup to this election to this conclave, much was made about how the Vatican Administration itself needed reform. We had the leak scandal, all of that. Heres a cardinal whos coming from now pope coming from outside the vatican, of course, Pope Benedict came from many years as the ultimate vatican insider. Do you think thats the hopeful or troubling buildup to a job that is going to be in large measure about wrestling control of what weve learned is a sprawling and dysfunctional bureaucracy . Well, as obviously not having any firsthand knowledge of it, my sense of to go to everything weve been saying is and given his Life Experience in buenos aires where he did not avail himself of the perks of office suggest to me that this is a potentially quite revolutionary reformer. At least the clinical signs. The clinical clues would suggest that entrenchment privilege inertia, sclerosis would all be thingss that would be anathema to him given the way he lives and the way hes appeared in this very brief moment. So if i were a corrupt vatican bureaucrat i wouldnt be sleeping particularly easily tonight. Just because i think being an outsider here and by underscoring such a as we were saying an evangelical Mission Driven ethos suggests to me that there could be a significant amount of reform. Bruni so first jesuit. We talked about first open from latin america. Thats probably the bigger and even more relevant first. What what kind of message do you think that sends to catholics worldwide father modrys. I think as time goes on its going to be the personality of the pope that has comes to the fore. I mean, the fact that this man is from south america is certainly going to be very influential of course in shaping his personality but its going to be important to watch the kinds of decisions he makes and most of all i think the paradigm of leadership that he adopts. You know, we in the United States are always drawing parallels between our own political leaders and the pope and the analogy really limps. But this is the ultimate sort of bully pulpit and theres a lot of room here for the pope in his position to determine the kind of leadership hes going to exercise. And it goes back to what john was saying before how do you clean up the bureaucracy, how do you inspire people to renew their faith . How do you speak to the largely secular world . And what role do specific christian values play in that. For example, this humility can, in fact, a leader of the Catholic Church present himself as fundamentally a very humble person. Now, as people of faith we would hope the answer to that is yes. Because obviously thats thats the most christlike virtue that we all respect. But its different from what we need in a present, in a political leader. So its going to be very interesting to see how this particular pope will take as i say all of his jesuit background his coming from south america and pull so much of that together and put his own personal stamp on what it means to be the pope in the 21st century. And i think, too, theres an opportunity here for inclusiveness that the entire world may be able to connect with this man. Rose thats facilitated by the symbolism of the selection. Yeah. And has already been stated, the hue mill they he demonstrated just as he came out today and asking the world to pray for him the lifelong commitment hes had to social justice this can resonate both in the north and the south. People thought deceptively simple but he was not a simple man at all was john xx 3shgs 3shgs 3shgs. We saw a establishment of him today. Someone that the world could almost fall in love with because he was so authentic. And because of his devotion to the poor which grew out of love was simply captivating. Thats the hope i have that he is someone whos in that mold and i think he has that about him from what weve seen. Humble man but the challenges hes inheriting anything but humble. Lets talk about those. President degioia. What do you think are the biggest and most immediate challenges facing him as pope now . Well, we have a very fractured church in the north, europe and america. This has been were flat in terms of the growth of in the south its growing. Africa biggest growth rate in the world. Largest percentage of catholics are in latin america, big growth rates in asia. Being able to pull together this global but very Diverse Community i think is going to be the most significant first challenge and, again, in the north europe and america we have real challenges in being able to pull this these communities together. Thats challenge number one. Rose what about some of the things that grab News Headlines a little more and that i think the pope does have to reckon with. Is the church through its child sexual abuse crisis . If not what can we expect from this pope on that front . Father mcshane . Hfrjts well, i dont think were through it. I hope that i think that revelations will still come out. I think the developed west many of the churches addressed it, put policies in place. Now we have to make sure theyre followed. Cardinal degioia was quite correct that one of the things the new pope will have to do is make it clear to zero tolerance throughout the church is zero tolerance throughout the church. Thats an absolutely essential thing. And when that is stated i think what has to be stated even before we say the zero tolerance i think holy father has to say that the Church Stands first and always with the victims. Not with its own prestige, not with its own name and not protecting those who are dressed like walter and myself and that has to be the first step. I think the man sees god as the value and not the institution. And i think thats in the gospel. Rose we all bear a responsibility for not taking care of our children. We had systems in place that did not provide the adequate protection and we all bear some responsibility for that. In this period we need to come to terms with that, achieve some level of reconciliation and create a foundation of trust that moving forward were going to protect our children. Bruni do you agree with the estimation of many catholics that this child sexual abuse crisis along with other things, the vatican leak scandal has eroded the churchs moral authority . Theres no question that that is part of the rebuilding that has to happen in this new papacy. Bruni jon meacham, when we talk about those challenges people often point out the church is not a very transparent organization, a lot of that has been discussed in terms of the vatican bank and the need to reform. That we know not a lot about pope francis and how he will operate but do you think transparency is a big issue for him . A big thing he has to address and any reason to believe that could be something that changes . Given that were talking about this selection and that we dont know anything about it rose the conclave isnt very transparent. Exactly many of the issues that you it seems to me the new pope is not doctrinally different if his predecessor orapred saysors. This is not about to become a significantly more to use an entire term a more liberal church. What i find striking and i would love to hear what you all think about this is one of the things thats happened in evangelical circles is a generational shift from issues of sexual morality about the poor, about h. I. V. aids, about the environment. One question is would a renewed emphasis on social justice perhaps open the culture of the church more even though there might not be movement about issues of sexual morality. Certainly it will change the discussion on what we focus on. I agree and lets be honest were rushing to find out as much as we can about the new pope. Its clear he is a bishop, archbishop and cardinal chosen clearly by john paul ii therefore he will be doctrinally conservative as jon said but socially far more liberal than most people would believe or would understand. I think we see this very clearly in his very staunch and consistent this is a word that jack used and very important word to use his consistent championing, his advocacy for the poorest of the poor. Not only in buenos aires but throughout argentina and latin america. This would indicat